The Collapse of Russia. What happens next?

[ChrisSussex]

On 3/5/2023 at 9:39 AM, Big Orange said:

Allied Germany and Britain in a alternate WW2 reality would've absolutely creamed European Russia, and in Hitler's and Naploean's case the Russo-Ukrainian-Belarus steppes were a massive army sink to waste hundreds of thousands to millions of troops (whilst they were at war with major Western enemies at the same time).

Whatever dude, I suggest you look at British Retreat at Dunkirk in 1940 where we sensibly left the French to their fate at the hands of the Third Reich- that was the only time the British went head to head with spearhead of the German army in WW2. 80% of Germans who died in WW2 died fighting the Russians. I am not a supporter of Russia in this war but the reality is they are as tough as Dirt, have some extremely advanced mitiary technology they have developed and built themselves and are not to be underestimated -  alot of what is being reported on the media in this country about this war is probably fantasy.

[satsuma]

China has said they will not supply weapons, Wagner is telling everyone they are out of Ammo, PooTIns puppets are getting poisoned, seems to me things are not going to plan.  

[rollover]

US-led West is akin to Nazi Germany

Italian researcher, specialist in the field of sociology of terrorism Alessandro Orsini believes that West in connection with the situation in Ukraine is akin to Nazi Germany.

"The West, which supports the war in Ukraine is essentially the very same Nazi Germany-led West. It is the bloody, inhuman and cynical West, which is turned on by death and weapons. Part of our roots are in Nazism. We, not aliens from other planets, were Nazis. The West led by Joe Biden has a Nazi essence, which has never disappeared and is now resurfacing in all its inhumanity. It is using Ukrainians as cannon fodder to advance militarily to the detriment of Russia," Orisini wrote in his latest article posted on a social network in connection with the situation around Bakhmut.

Hitler was conquering Poland militarily in the name of the Aryan race. NATO is conquering Eastern Europe militarily in the name of ostensible democracy. In both cases, both with Hitler and NATO, the battle is for military expansion," Orsini writes.

He believes that Italy is involved in the conflict because it sends weapons to Ukraine solely "to please the White House."

Orsini has repeatedly spoken out publicly against arms supplies to Kiev and has accused the Western leaders, including the EU, of escalation in a bid to confront Russia. He also argues that the public mind in Italy is a target of manipulation.

tass

 

 

[pig]

 

6 hours ago, nero120 said:

I notice you didn't disagree with me, so you must think we are weak also. Or do you think we are MIGHTY?!!  😂 😂 😂

Basically.... yes of course I 'disagree' with you.

You are clearly hypersensitive about the predicament of MIGHTY Russia and upset at the focus of this thread.

As a result you seem to be retaliating by 'projecting' onto UK and insisting the everybody is lying about Russia because everybody is at war with Russia 😢

If you can take it shall we try to run through this again ? 

9 hours ago, pig said:

To be fair there are similarities - cut ourselves off from Europe, oligarch class ruling through culture war.

We aren't burning through a sovereign wealth fund on a stupid war while poisoning our generals and sending a generation to their deaths equipped with shovels though.

Hence you don't get millions of Brits fleeing the the UK.

If its too much for you just leave the thread alone and find something less upsetting to discuss.

 

[AThirdWay]

23 minutes ago, ChrisSussex said:

 that was the only time the British went head to head with spearhead of the German army in WW2.

You're ignorance is astounding. Google "the eighth army".

[pig]

5 hours ago, Fishfinger said:

The last couple of centuries have been a short term aberration in Geo economic terms. China up to the 17th or 18th centuries was the biggest economy in the world followed by India. Things are reverting to the long term mean.

We'll end up an insignificant island off the north west seaboard of Europe and a regional superpower.. if you count Ireland, Isle of Wight, the Shetlands and Orkneys as being in our sphere of influence😁    

Christ its a total sausage party of histrionic sino-russian hubris in here lol

 

[AThirdWay]

23 minutes ago, rollover said:

US-led West is akin to Nazi Germany

Italian researcher, specialist in the field of sociology of terrorism Alessandro Orsini believes that West in connection with the situation in Ukraine is akin to Nazi Germany.

"The West, which supports the war in Ukraine is essentially the very same Nazi Germany-led West. It is the bloody, inhuman and cynical West, which is turned on by death and weapons. Part of our roots are in Nazism. We, not aliens from other planets, were Nazis. The West led by Joe Biden has a Nazi essence, which has never disappeared and is now resurfacing in all its inhumanity. It is using Ukrainians as cannon fodder to advance militarily to the detriment of Russia," Orisini wrote in his latest article posted on a social network in connection with the situation around Bakhmut.

Hitler was conquering Poland militarily in the name of the Aryan race. NATO is conquering Eastern Europe militarily in the name of ostensible democracy. In both cases, both with Hitler and NATO, the battle is for military expansion," Orsini writes.

He believes that Italy is involved in the conflict because it sends weapons to Ukraine solely "to please the White House."

Orsini has repeatedly spoken out publicly against arms supplies to Kiev and has accused the Western leaders, including the EU, of escalation in a bid to confront Russia. He also argues that the public mind in Italy is a target of manipulation.

tass

 

 

Never read such drivel in my life.... And I read some Trump quotes!

[pig]

7 hours ago, DarkHorseWaits-NoMore said:

I'm just glad that it appears there are quite few critical thinking pragmatic people still awake, that have some level of natural immunity to the CIA/MI6 made media spread pandemic of Russia phobia.

You're really going to have to up your game. Too much time going soft trolling on twitter ?

 

[Tapori]

On 04/03/2023 at 17:42, Roman Roady said:

and Pakistan is on the brink...circa 100M people in a not entirely benign part of the world....and it has nukes.

Pakistan is Pakistan. They'll survive somehow. Watch the Army.

On ground conditions are horrific if you don't have money, connections or power.

If you have any of the latter 3 then literally Pakistan is incredibly nice.

The middle-class have now seen their entire incomes and lifestyles decimated by insane political and economic decisions by the reverse avengers of 2 of the most corrupt political parties aligning together. Their wealth stashed away here in our Isles of Money.

[zugzwang]

1 hour ago, mynamehere said:

Wins include more NATO members. One of which is on Russian border. retain influence if not total control over black sea trade routes. 

Ukraine is being trained up, and soon one of the strongest NATO trained, battle hardened armies of the world will be sitting on Putin's doorstep keeping Russia firmly tied up.

Russia has less ability to stir up trouble around the world, smaller presence in syria, wagner is gaving to take a breather from massacres in Mali.  

List goes on and on.

No idea what you talking about re debt etc. I'm sure it's a very compelling account of the downfall of the west.

The Russians spent 20 yrs constructing the Nord Stream pipelines. That enormous trade and investment opportunity for Western Europe is now being enjoyed by China, India and Turkey etc instead. The country suffering the most collateral damage in this global fracture is Germany. As Europe’s most advanced industrial economy, German steel, chemicals, machinery, automotives and other consumer goods are the most highly dependent on imports of Russian gas, oil and metals from aluminum to titanium and palladium. Germany has in effect been told to de-industrialise. This means the end of its economic preeminence. The knock-on impact into the rest of Europe, a Europe already struggling with the inflationary consequences of the Ukraine War, can only be guessed.

[pig]

10 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

The Russians spent 20 yrs constructing the Nord Stream pipelines. That enormous trade and investment opportunity for Western Europe is now being enjoyed by China, India and Turkey etc instead. The country suffering the most collateral damage in this global fracture is Germany. As Europe’s most advanced industrial economy, German steel, chemicals, machinery, automotives and other consumer goods are the most highly dependent on imports of Russian gas, oil and metals from aluminum to titanium and palladium. Germany has in effect been told to de-industrialise. This means the end of its economic preeminence. The knock-on impact into the rest of Europe, a Europe already struggling with the inflationary consequences of the Ukraine War, can only be guessed.

That can't be true, China wants peace, There is no way it would prop up Russias invasion like that.

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, AThirdWay said:

China? Really? In what way? What form does India's rebuffing take? Do you think they'll be sourcing any weapon systems from Russia any time soon?

Finally, what has the British Army got to do with it? 🙄 

Russia can only come out of this worse. I doubt the state will collapse but it is/will be severely damaged.

Luckily for Vlad, the Russian is used to hardship...

China's the worrying one to be honest, it certainly doesn't give a crap about people getting killed; on the one hand it's got a problem with the West for having its bad behaviour pointed out and as a possible source of people actually saying what they want - risk that might leak in to China. On the other hand China and the West are economically tied together.

India seems to be having a bit of a chip on its shoulder these days but note Lavrov getting laughed at the other day, it's not buying Russia's claptrap.

[Gbob]

The Russians have allegedly been running out of ammunition since last April. They're certainly stretching it out a long way if they are.

I'll tell you who is running out of ammunition though. Us.

 

[robmatic]

27 minutes ago, Glenn said:

The Russians have allegedly been running out of ammunition since last April. They're certainly stretching it out a long way if they are.

I'll tell you who is running out of ammunition though. Us.

 

Over that time Russia has retreated from vast swathes of Ukrainian territory, attempted and then given up on a strategic bombing campaign that was going to destroy the Ukrainian power network, and concentrated the offensive capabilities of their mighty army on taking one small town in the Donbas. Doesn't seem that they do have an overwhelming amount of ammunition after all.

[14stFlyer]

8 hours ago, zugzwang said:

The Russians spent 20 yrs constructing the Nord Stream pipelines.

Simply not true.  Financing was 50/50 between Russia and Western European companies. Construction was dominated by European contractors.  
 

From Wikipedia, but I have no reason to doubt it. 
 

“In April 2017, Uniper, Wintershall, Engie, OMV and Royal Dutch Shell signed a financing agreement with Nord Stream 2 AG, a subsidiary of Gazprom”

 

And from Offshore Technology: 

”The Swiss-Dutch deep-sea pipe-laying company Allseas suspended work on the project in December 2019 following sanctions announced by the US. 
 

Gazprom restarted construction using Russia’s own pipe-laying vessel Fortuna in January 2021 and completed the pending 160km stretch in Danish waters as well as works on pipeline endpoints in Russia and Germany in September 2021.

Contractors involved

Kvaerner was awarded a contract worth $73m in 2017, for the civil, mechanical and piping works for onshore facilities at the export landfall of the pipeline in Russia.

Europipe, Mülheim, United Metallurgical Company, Chelyabinsk Pipe-Rolling Plant, and Chelyabinsk were awarded contracts to supply steel pipes for the two pipelines in March 2016. The contract included the delivery of 2,500km of large-diameter pipes weighing approximately 2.2Mt.

Allseas was awarded a contract by Nord Stream to perform offshore pipe-laying works for the pipeline project in February 2017. The contract also included the provision of pipe-laying vessels, Solitaire, Pioneering Spirit, and Audacia.

Wasco Coatings Germany was contracted in September 2016 to provide concrete weight coating services and pipes for the Nord Stream 2 project. In June 2017, Blue Water Shipping was awarded a $46m subcontract by Wasco Coatings for handling, storage, and transportation of the pipeline segments.

Bokaalis-Van Oord was awarded the $291m rock placement contract for the Nord Stream 2 pipeline project in July 2017.

Saipem was contracted to provide the pipe-laying vessel C10 for the project in August 2017.

[DarkHorseWaits-NoMore]

8 hours ago, pig said:

You're really going to have to up your game. Too much time going soft trolling on twitter ?

I get the insinuation, only I have never had a twitter account nor facebook etc, avoiding such polluted info sources, so maybe you are demonstrating the wider problem I was originally referring to.

 

 

[satsuma]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/03/07/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news-bakhmut-zelensky-putin/

Russia running out of ammo and losing tanks at an alarming rate, meanwhile Wagner and Moscow are at each others throats. 

[nero120]

10 hours ago, pig said:

Basically.... yes of course I 'disagree' with you.

You are clearly hypersensitive about the predicament of MIGHTY Russia and upset at the focus of this thread.

As a result you seem to be retaliating by 'projecting' onto UK and insisting the everybody is lying about Russia because everybody is at war with Russia 😢

If you can take it shall we try to run through this again ? 

If its too much for you just leave the thread alone and find something less upsetting to discuss.

That response is what psychologists refer to as "projection" buddy. I never said Russia was mighty, I said WE are weak - I even put it in caps to emphasise that I'm talking about us, the UK, my country, not making assumptions about our adversaries!

People like you are exactly why our nation has become the joke that it is. Blinkered fools who live in a dream world, aggressively defending their delusions whilst themselves and their people are becoming poorer by the day and the rest of the world is leaving them behind.

So, I am not pro-Russian, I am anti-f***wit, and sadly this country seems to be full of them.

[pig]

13 minutes ago, nero120 said:

That response is what psychologists refer to as "projection" buddy. I never said Russia was mighty, I said WE are weak - I even put it in caps to emphasise that I'm talking about us, the UK, my country, not making assumptions about our adversaries!

People like you are exactly why our nation has become the joke that it is. Blinkered fools who live in a dream world, aggressively defending their delusions whilst themselves and their people are becoming poorer by the day and the rest of the world is leaving them behind.

So, I am not pro-Russian, I am anti-f***wit, and sadly this country seems to be full of them.

Well thank you for your hypothesis Nero.

Happy to pick up the discussion as above when you've recovered from your meltdown.

[zugzwang]

10 hours ago, pig said:

That can't be true, China wants peace, There is no way it would prop up Russias invasion like that.

And India, Turkey, Brazil...?

Wanting peace for the Ukraine and profiting from the West's imperial follies aren't incompatible strategic ambitions.

[nero120]

8 minutes ago, pig said:

Well thank you for your hypothesis Nero.

Happy to pick up the discussion as above when you've recovered from your meltdown.

Still avoiding the point! So you think the UK is strong? Where exactly are we strong? Please do tell me! 

[zugzwang]

2 hours ago, 14stFlyer said:

Simply not true.  Financing was 50/50 between Russia and Western European companies. Construction was dominated by European contractors.  
 

From Wikipedia, but I have no reason to doubt it. 
 

“In April 2017, Uniper, Wintershall, Engie, OMV and Royal Dutch Shell signed a financing agreement with Nord Stream 2 AG, a subsidiary of Gazprom”

 

And from Offshore Technology: 

”The Swiss-Dutch deep-sea pipe-laying company Allseas suspended work on the project in December 2019 following sanctions announced by the US. 
 

Gazprom restarted construction using Russia’s own pipe-laying vessel Fortuna in January 2021 and completed the pending 160km stretch in Danish waters as well as works on pipeline endpoints in Russia and Germany in September 2021.

Contractors involved

Kvaerner was awarded a contract worth $73m in 2017, for the civil, mechanical and piping works for onshore facilities at the export landfall of the pipeline in Russia.

Europipe, Mülheim, United Metallurgical Company, Chelyabinsk Pipe-Rolling Plant, and Chelyabinsk were awarded contracts to supply steel pipes for the two pipelines in March 2016. The contract included the delivery of 2,500km of large-diameter pipes weighing approximately 2.2Mt.

Allseas was awarded a contract by Nord Stream to perform offshore pipe-laying works for the pipeline project in February 2017. The contract also included the provision of pipe-laying vessels, Solitaire, Pioneering Spirit, and Audacia.

Wasco Coatings Germany was contracted in September 2016 to provide concrete weight coating services and pipes for the Nord Stream 2 project. In June 2017, Blue Water Shipping was awarded a $46m subcontract by Wasco Coatings for handling, storage, and transportation of the pipeline segments.

Bokaalis-Van Oord was awarded the $291m rock placement contract for the Nord Stream 2 pipeline project in July 2017.

Saipem was contracted to provide the pipe-laying vessel C10 for the project in August 2017.

 

I was speaking figuratively.

The Germans have lost the most.

[pig]

10 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

And India, Turkey, Brazil...?

Wanting peace for the Ukraine and profiting from the West's imperial follies aren't incompatible strategic ambitions.

?

Surely you meant profiting from Russias imperial follies ?

Because yes that is obviously incompatible with wanting peace in Ukraine.

[Fishfinger]

12 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

China? Really? In what way? What form does India's rebuffing take? Do you think they'll be sourcing any weapon systems from Russia any time soon?

Finally, what has the British Army got to do with it? 🙄 

Russia can only come out of this worse. I doubt the state will collapse but it is/will be severely damaged.

Luckily for Vlad, the Russian is used to hardship...

India is quite happily taking all oil from the Russians and reselling it on to all comers.. including Europe. I would say that's a rebuff against the USA and their sanctions?

You mentioned "coalition of support for Ukraine". The UK is part of that presumably and if so  that includes our Army or don't you read you're own word salad? 

[rollover]

Ukrainian troops’ losses surpassing 11,000 in February

The losses of Ukrainian troops jumped by 40% in February, surpassing 11,000 people, Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said.

"There’s considerable growth of losses among the personnel of the Ukrainian armed forces. In February alone, they increased by more than 40% compared with January and totaled more than 11,000 servicemen. In connection with this, it’s surprising how the Kiev regime doesn’t care about its people, tolerating any cost to human life to please its Western handlers," he said.

tass