Trump was right - Covid escaped from a lab

[Riedquat]

What we seem to have here are the usual suspects who ignored all the other authorities who didn't make this claim but who latch on to this one because it sounds like what they want to hear. Probably as a result of a combination of anti-Chinese sentiment (and heaven knows China's a country that deservedly attracts that in plenty of areas) and the desire to always find someone to blame. Throw in some weird ideas about disease, despite history being full of epidemics and pandemics popping up like this, and it's not hard to see why they've latched on to it, even though as far as I can tell no actual new evidence to support the claim has appeared. Yeah, you can't rule it out but there's nothing much to suggest it either.

[scottbeard]

2 hours ago, Riedquat said:

What we seem to have here are the usual suspects who ignored all the other authorities who didn't make this claim but who latch on to this one because it sounds like what they want to hear. Probably as a result of a combination of anti-Chinese sentiment (and heaven knows China's a country that deservedly attracts that in plenty of areas) and the desire to always find someone to blame. Throw in some weird ideas about disease, despite history being full of epidemics and pandemics popping up like this, and it's not hard to see why they've latched on to it, even though as far as I can tell no actual new evidence to support the claim has appeared. Yeah, you can't rule it out but there's nothing much to suggest it either.

I really do think a lot of people are unnerved by randomness and prefer the idea that someone somewhere has a plan and is in control of everything as the truth of how much of the universe is chaos is unnerving

So they naturally latch on to the idea that elites are planning a new world order, or covid came from a lab, because the idea that politicians just make everything up as they go along, or that diseases just pop up out of nature and kill 7 million people, is more unsettling

As you say who knows where covid came from, but people do believe what they want to hear

[nightowl]

14 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

I really do think a lot of people are unnerved by randomness and prefer the idea that someone somewhere has a plan and is in control of everything as the truth of how much of the universe is chaos is unnerving

So they naturally latch on to the idea that elites are planning a new world order, or covid came from a lab, because the idea that politicians just make everything up as they go along, or that diseases just pop up out of nature and kill 7 million people, is more unsettling

As you say who knows where covid came from, but people do believe what they want to hear

A lab leak could also be a random and chaotic event too, and I doubt few believe Chernobyl was part of any great plan.

Lots of things are random but the 'elite' in charge try to take control even though ultimately they can't control it, and then they either make a mess of it trying to look like they are in control or make life worse for everyone else while covering up they aren't in control of chaotic events afterall.

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, scottbeard said:

I really do think a lot of people are unnerved by randomness and prefer the idea that someone somewhere has a plan and is in control of everything as the truth of how much of the universe is chaos is unnerving

So they naturally latch on to the idea that elites are planning a new world order, or covid came from a lab, because the idea that politicians just make everything up as they go along, or that diseases just pop up out of nature and kill 7 million people, is more unsettling

As you say who knows where covid came from, but people do believe what they want to hear

Seems to be. Personally I prefer the randomness, signs that despite our best efforts the world isn't completely known and controlled. I don't like the negative consequences any more than anyone else, but it's a sign of a little bit of freedom even in a world hell-bent on imposing control on everything, sacrificing living for existing.

[Will!]

1 hour ago, scottbeard said:

I really do think a lot of people are unnerved by randomness and prefer the idea that someone somewhere has a plan and is in control of everything as the truth of how much of the universe is chaos is unnerving

So they naturally latch on to the idea that elites are planning a new world order, or covid came from a lab, because the idea that politicians just make everything up as they go along, or that diseases just pop up out of nature and kill 7 million people, is more unsettling

As you say who knows where covid came from, but people do believe what they want to hear

It seems to me to be the people who think themselves more intelligent than others (with their superior “critical thinking skills”) who can’t cope with the limits of logic.  Maybe it’s something to do with the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[Bob8]

6 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Seems to be. Personally I prefer the randomness, signs that despite our best efforts the world isn't completely known and controlled. I don't like the negative consequences any more than anyone else, but it's a sign of a little bit of freedom even in a world hell-bent on imposing control on everything, sacrificing living for existing.

It is a general and far from absolute observation, but those working in science are well aware of how little we understand. Their entire job is based on the things we do not know and have not modelled.

I would compare it to Victorian age explorer venturing into unknown and someone in London content to world is fully mapped and understood. We see it a bit with the ming-mongs on the Covid threads who cannot accept things no being known.

[satsuma]

10 hours ago, nightowl said:

A lab leak could also be a random and chaotic event too, and I doubt few believe Chernobyl was part of any great plan.

Lots of things are random but the 'elite' in charge try to take control even though ultimately they can't control it, and then they either make a mess of it trying to look like they are in control or make life worse for everyone else while covering up they aren't in control of chaotic events afterall.

Common denominator is countries playing with technology they don't understand and probably stole off the inventors, therefore not understanding how to operate it

[nightowl]

1 minute ago, satsuma said:

Common denominator is countries playing with technology they don't understand and probably stole off the inventors, therefore not understanding how to operate it

That may we'll be a factor. Also the cultural differences on operating such processes whereby a more top-down command like culture risks mistakes as those lower down for whatever reason don't feel empowered to raise concerns higher level folk never see.

My overall point was accidents end up as random as nature in the end and neither are pre decided. 

[satsuma]

35 minutes ago, nightowl said:

That may we'll be a factor. Also the cultural differences on operating such processes whereby a more top-down command like culture risks mistakes as those lower down for whatever reason don't feel empowered to raise concerns higher level folk never see.

My overall point was accidents end up as random as nature in the end and neither are pre decided. 

Possibly, also it might have been intentional, it was outside China before China rang the bell, China then used it as an excuse for martial law.  Clearly it was intended to decimate the world economy.  

[miguel]

11 hours ago, scottbeard said:

I really do think a lot of people are unnerved by randomness and prefer the idea that someone somewhere has a plan and is in control of everything as the truth of how much of the universe is chaos is unnerving

So they naturally latch on to the idea that elites are planning a new world order, or covid came from a lab, because the idea that politicians just make everything up as they go along, or that diseases just pop up out of nature and kill 7 million people, is more unsettling

As you say who knows where covid came from, but people do believe what they want to hear

 

They are as thick as pig sht. They'd be better off going back to the bubonic plague and spreading their sht. However they would very likely be found cowering n' a shivering somewhere in a dark corner of Eyam. 

[“Nasty Piece of work”]

 

17 hours ago, FallingAwake said:

I see. Ergo, must be wrong on everything.

Even an imbecile has quite a good chance of putting his shoes on the correct foot.  Ergo.

[Bob8]

12 hours ago, scottbeard said:

I really do think a lot of people are unnerved by randomness and prefer the idea that someone somewhere has a plan and is in control of everything as the truth of how much of the universe is chaos is unnerving

So they naturally latch on to the idea that elites are planning a new world order, or covid came from a lab, because the idea that politicians just make everything up as they go along, or that diseases just pop up out of nature and kill 7 million people, is more unsettling

As you say who knows where covid came from, but people do believe what they want to hear

I think that is part of it. 

The other parts being a complete inability to separate your feelings from reasoned logic (fairly common) and a convision that you are smarter than most while actually being far more gullible than most (not rare). 

[nightowl]

39 minutes ago, satsuma said:

Possibly, also it might have been intentional, it was outside China before China rang the bell, China then used it as an excuse for martial law.  Clearly it was intended to decimate the world economy.  

Personally I doubt it was intentional leak would would a bio weapon as this could seriously backfire on yourself as you are as vulnerable as your enemies in the end.  Unsettling the world economy also seems to far fetched as again there's no guarantee of outcome at all that may backfire on yourself. 

For all we know Beijing didn't genuinely know sars 2 had escaped its borders early on, and once they did kept quiet to save face rather than use it as a economic weapon.

Also I doubt most western govs had plans for martial law, until panicked into such a knee jerk reactions.  Many politicians and policy makers unwittingly enjoyed that taste of new found power and found it hard to let go.  

[Goat]

12 hours ago, scottbeard said:

I really do think a lot of people are unnerved by randomness and prefer the idea that someone somewhere has a plan and is in control of everything as the truth of how much of the universe is chaos is unnerving

So they naturally latch on to the idea that elites are planning a new world order, or covid came from a lab, because the idea that politicians just make everything up as they go along, or that diseases just pop up out of nature and kill 7 million people, is more unsettling

As you say who knows where covid came from, but people do believe what they want to hear

The thing is that the lab leak theory is extremely plausible, we know they were carrying out gain of function experiments with this kind of virus, we know their biosecurity standards were lax, are we really expected to believe that it's pure coincidence that a virus from 1,000 miles away suddenly jumped species in the same city's wet market?

This isn't new world order, Covid conspiracy theory nuts. 

[satsuma]

10 minutes ago, Goat said:

The thing is that the lab leak theory is extremely plausible, we know they were carrying out gain of function experiments with this kind of virus, we know their biosecurity standards were lax, are we really expected to believe that it's pure coincidence that a virus from 1,000 miles away suddenly jumped species in the same city's wet market?

This isn't new world order, Covid conspiracy theory nuts. 

I also wonder if the lab animals were being sold into the wet market under the table?

[Goat]

11 minutes ago, satsuma said:

I also wonder if the lab animals were being sold into the wet market under the table?

Unlikely.

[scottbeard]

13 hours ago, nightowl said:

A lab leak could also be a random and chaotic event too, and I doubt few believe Chernobyl was part of any great plan.

Industrial accidents aren't planned, but to the mindset I describe they are more comforting than natural chaos because they are still under people's control.

Sure the lab leak may have been accidental, but a person did it and - with better controls - it could have been avoided.

Chernobyl was accidental, but was just workers being pressured into doing silly things - again with better controls - it could have been avoided.

Contrast that to "COVID evolved in the wild, spread via a fish market, and - despite the best efforts of mankind with lockdowns and vaccines - spread to every house in the world, killing 7 million people in the process.  There was nothing anyone could do about it.  Next week there might be another such incident, killing 700 million not 7, and there is nothing you can do about that either."

[scottbeard]

1 hour ago, Goat said:

This isn't new world order, Covid conspiracy theory nuts. 

No indeed it isn't, it may well be what happened.

I don't know what happened, and I'm not even sure how much I care.

My point is more that to a certain mindset, they WANT that to be the answer because it's more comforting to them than chaos.

[nightowl]

10 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

Industrial accidents aren't planned, but to the mindset I describe they are more comforting than natural chaos because they are still under people's control.

Sure the lab leak may have been accidental, but a person did it and - with better controls - it could have been avoided.

Chernobyl was accidental, but was just workers being pressured into doing silly things - again with better controls - it could have been avoided.

Contrast that to "COVID evolved in the wild, spread via a fish market, and - despite the best efforts of mankind with lockdowns and vaccines - spread to every house in the world, killing 7 million people in the process.  There was nothing anyone could do about it.  Next week there might be another such incident, killing 700 million not 7, and there is nothing you can do about that either."

There seems to be some half baked pyscho analysis going on where anyone who entertains the idea of a lab accident must be convinced of a shadow world government to avoid the reality of natural chaos (not yourself specifically) - Yet that a lab accident was as random as a chance of a pure natural origin 🙄

It's back to the idea of trying to attach false ideas onto a debating opponents thinking, purely to make their point seem more sensible. How many times do we see this variation of the 'strawman' happen here?🙄 

Much of government's responses did display elements of coordination and lockstep but I put this down to panic, and copying another country purely not wanting to risk being seen not to in case it worked rather expectation.

Edited March 3, 2023 by nightowl

[scottbeard]

2 minutes ago, nightowl said:

There seems to be some half baked pyscho analysis going on where anyone who entertains the idea of a lab accident must be convinced of a shadow world government to avoid the reality of natural chaos (not yourself specifically) - Yet that a lab accident was as random as a chance of a pure natural origin

I didn't say that at all.

Just that there is a subset of people in the world who seem to like the idea that Big Brother is behind everything, because it's more comforting than chaos.

So everyone like that will want to believe it's a lab leak.

However, clearly not everyone who believes it's a lab leak is of that very narrowly-defined mindset.

4 minutes ago, nightowl said:

It's back to the idea of trying to attach false ideas onto a debating opponents thinking, purely to make their point seem more sensible. How many times do we see this variation of the 'strawman' happen here?🙄

My only point is as above.

I have no comment on where COVID came from - how would I know that?

[nightowl]

15 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

I didn't say that at all.

Just that there is a subset of people in the world who seem to like the idea that Big Brother is behind everything, because it's more comforting than chaos.

So everyone like that will want to believe it's a lab leak.

However, clearly not everyone who believes it's a lab leak is of that very narrowly-defined mindset.

My only point is as above.

I have no comment on where COVID came from - how would I know that?

Apologies, again I wasnt trying to say you specifically but just used you're quote as it was the most recent on the topic on the screen! 

You can have a comment on the subject by the way....whether you're pyscho analised or misquoted will all depend if it's the 'allowed' opinion here. 😉

Incidentally, I suspect many governments did suspect there was a very real possibility of a lab leak and/or the GofF research there would be an concern very early on, if only because the possibility was dismissed so fast.🤔

[Goat]

Interesting little vid:

The important point being that to an extent it really doesn't matter if it leaked from a lab or not, that was an accident, what wasn't an accident was that they allowed it to spread around the world and did nothing to help the rest of us slow the spread.

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Goat

[scottbeard]

7 minutes ago, nightowl said:

Apologies, again I wasnt trying to say you specifically but just used you're quote as it was the most recent on the topic on the screen! 

Ha, no worries!

It's always been the case that COVID could be naturally occuring, or could be made in a lab and escaped, or even a bit of both (it was naturally occuring out in the deep dark wildnerness, but the Wuhan institute brought a sample back and accidentally let it out into the city).

Initially naturally-occuring seemed more likely to me, just because we know that there are loads of naturally occuring viruses that pop up all the time, and no other recorded incidents at all to my knowledge of a new virus coming from a lab.  

However, when you think further about the probability - since viruses occur naturally all the time, at some point a naturally-occuring virus is going to pop up in a city that just happens to have a virus lab (a bit of Googling says there are 59 such labs worldwide).  However, equally, if a new virus emerges the chance of the nearest city to the point of origin having a virus lab is probably less than 1%, closer perhaps to 0.5%.

That could suggest that based on pure randomness alone there is a 99.5% chance it's a lab leak.

But is pure randomness right?  Or is a scabby Chinese wet market in the middle of bustling city in fact the perfect breeding ground for virus mutations to develop and spread, meaning that actually it was always more likely to pop in Wuhan market than say Berlin market, just due to poor Chinese hygiene standards and nothing to do with the lab.

Even then though, China has 100 cities and only 4 labs, so there is still a 96% chance it's a lab leak on that analysis.

So what it boils down to is that I don't know, but the more I think about it, the more likely a lab leak feels like it is.

[scottbeard]

2 minutes ago, Goat said:

The important point being that to an extent it really doesn't matter if it leaked from a lab or not, that was an accident, what wasn't an accident was that the allowed it to spread around the world and did nothing to help the rest of us slow the spread.

Spot on

Rather than arguing about how the fire started, noting that the first person to spot the smoke just tried to pretend there was no fire (rather than tackle it or raise the alarm) is a bigger issue.

But then we all know we can't trust China...

[nightowl]

18 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

Ha, no worries!

It's always been the case that COVID could be naturally occuring, or could be made in a lab and escaped, or even a bit of both (it was naturally occuring out in the deep dark wildnerness, but the Wuhan institute brought a sample back and accidentally let it out into the city).

Initially naturally-occuring seemed more likely to me, just because we know that there are loads of naturally occuring viruses that pop up all the time, and no other recorded incidents at all to my knowledge of a new virus coming from a lab.  

However, when you think further about the probability - since viruses occur naturally all the time, at some point a naturally-occuring virus is going to pop up in a city that just happens to have a virus lab (a bit of Googling says there are 59 such labs worldwide).  However, equally, if a new virus emerges the chance of the nearest city to the point of origin having a virus lab is probably less than 1%, closer perhaps to 0.5%.

That could suggest that based on pure randomness alone there is a 99.5% chance it's a lab leak.

But is pure randomness right?  Or is a scabby Chinese wet market in the middle of bustling city in fact the perfect breeding ground for virus mutations to develop and spread, meaning that actually it was always more likely to pop in Wuhan market than say Berlin market, just due to poor Chinese hygiene standards and nothing to do with the lab.

Even then though, China has 100 cities and only 4 labs, so there is still a 96% chance it's a lab leak on that analysis.

So what it boils down to is that I don't know, but the more I think about it, the more likely a lab leak feels like it is.

Quite. A bat virus is first spotted in a city where there's a lab researching such things...that's one hell of a coincidence worthy of investigation if nothing else.

Irrespective of it's origins a natural jump will happen somewhere one day anyway and those odds haven't changed much for the future I doubt while a risk of lab leak will go down as such labs will have reviewed their protocols I'm sure. Bird flu is getting the limelight now after monkey poxs 15mins of fame, but this might not be a heighten risk but rather the media being more sensitised to such things.

Only one man who stalks these forums trusts Beijing.....🤣

Edited March 3, 2023 by nightowl