Trump was right - Covid escaped from a lab

[nightowl]

9 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

The only evidence that exists is epidemiological.

Incorrect.

When considering a serious conventional crime relying purely on one piece of evidence is extremely unsound.  Motive, suspects relationship with victim, weapons or tools used, DNA, fingerprints, alibis, CCTV footage all can become part of the evidence even if they don't fit or help the result you're hoping for.

You're taking one piece of evidence and dismissing all the rest. Worse still, your dismissal is clearly motivated by Trump, who had an early opinion on it all.

[Dyson Fury]

2 hours ago, zugzwang said:

So if the pandemic didn't start at the market, one of the first five or 10 people infected in the world was at the market. And how do you explain that?

So four of the first five (or 9 of the first 10) people infected in the world weren't at the market.

A lot of positive tests were found n equipment, cages etc at the market.  But not a single infected animal.

And there is a Virology Institute which was carrying out gain-of-function research into coronaviruses, in the same city.  With a branch  lab (Centre for Disease Control, which has only Level 2 biosecurity) about 800m from the market.

https://img-prod.tgcom24.mediaset.it/images/2020/02/16/114720192-5eb8307f-017c-4075-a697-348628da0204.pdf
Figure 1 shows the location of the lab and wet market.

https://2017-2021.state.gov/fact-sheet-activity-at-the-wuhan-institute-of-virology/index.html

Quote

The CCP’s deadly obsession with secrecy and control comes at the expense of public health in China and around the world. The previously undisclosed information in this fact sheet, combined with open-source reporting, highlights three elements about COVID-19’s origin that deserve greater scrutiny:

1. Illnesses inside the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV):

• The U.S. government has reason to believe that several researchers inside the WIV became sick in autumn 2019, before the first identified case of the outbreak, with symptoms consistent with both COVID-19 and common seasonal illnesses. This raises questions about the credibility of WIV senior researcher Shi Zhengli’s public claim that there was “zero infection” among the WIV’s staff and students of SARS-CoV-2 or SARS-related viruses.
• Accidental infections in labs have caused several previous virus outbreaks in China and elsewhere, including a 2004 SARS outbreak in Beijing that infected nine people, killing one.
• The CCP has prevented independent journalists, investigators, and global health authorities from interviewing researchers at the WIV, including those who were ill in the fall of 2019. Any credible inquiry into the origin of the virus must include interviews with these researchers and a full accounting of their previously unreported illness.

The World Health Organisation: "Can we have access to the WIV laboratory records and notebooks please?".

The Chinese Communist Party: "No".

The Australian Government: "There needs to be a thorough international inquiry, carried out by independent top experts, into the origin of COVID"

The Chinese Communist Party: "Your defamation of China is unacceptable, we are introducing an import embargo on Australian wine and beef, and will reduce the number of fee-paying students we send to Australian Universities".

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australia-could-lose-billions-from-chinese-government-boycott-threat-20200427-p54nmh.html

"Australia has arrived at its moment of truth. It is now presented with the explicit choice between sovereignty and money. It arrived this week when the Chinese Communist Party publicly threatened Australia with trade boycotts for proposing an international inquiry into the global pandemic."
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-money-or-our-sovereignty-china-leaves-us-no-choice-20200501-p54p57.html

Edited March 4, 2023 by Dyson Fury
Added references

[Bob8]

5 hours ago, Goat said:

Not sinister, but gain of function can mean "gain of ability to infect and transmit between humans", so that sort of experiment being carried out in a lab with reportedly lax biosafety standards is suspicious when exactly the sort of virus being studied suddenly emerges in that city from seemingly nowhere.

Nope, they generally evolve over time, they don't usually cross the species barrier so well adapted to transmission between their new hosts.

You have evidence to support that claim?

1. It is easy to overstate our understanding of virology. The virus is very simple, the human beig is the complicated bit, particularly ex-vitro.

2. They have to emerge. Covd viruses are not novel, we have a new type of Covid-virus, but this is not a completely alien virus. That said, viruses are quirks of code rather than living species, they really can and will occasionally appear.

3. Well, I worked in a virus lab briefly

[Riedquat]

On 03/03/2023 at 12:53, nightowl said:

Quite. A bat virus is first spotted in a city where there's a lab researching such things...that's one hell of a coincidence worthy of investigation if nothing else.

Irrespective of it's origins a natural jump will happen somewhere one day anyway and those odds haven't changed much for the future I doubt while a risk of lab leak will go down as such labs will have reviewed their protocols I'm sure. Bird flu is getting the limelight now after monkey poxs 15mins of fame, but this might not be a heighten risk but rather the media being more sensitised to such things.

Only one man who stalks these forums trusts Beijing.....🤣

That's all fair enough, it's definitely worth investigating, and pretty much impossible with China being China, a country that'll always do its best to muddy the waters no matter the circumstances (it's not as if they'd be happy looking bad by the virus emerging naturally there, so Chinese obstruction doesn't mean anything).

On the coincidence front, well, we've had that type of lab worldwide mentioned, but there are other sorts of institutions, e.g. universities, that may be studying viruses, so I still don't think it's that far-fetched that wherever one crops up there's likely to be something nearby.

[nightowl]

30 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

That's all fair enough, it's definitely worth investigating, and pretty much impossible with China being China, a country that'll always do its best to muddy the waters no matter the circumstances (it's not as if they'd be happy looking bad by the virus emerging naturally there, so Chinese obstruction doesn't mean anything).

On the coincidence front, well, we've had that type of lab worldwide mentioned, but there are other sorts of institutions, e.g. universities, that may be studying viruses, so I still don't think it's that far-fetched that wherever one crops up there's likely to be something nearby.

I can see the whole thing ending up like that Malaysian B777, where the mystery and speculation will never be resolved without something new turning up.

[Bob8]

6 hours ago, Goat said:

Not sinister, but gain of function can mean "gain of ability to infect and transmit between humans", so that sort of experiment being carried out in a lab with reportedly lax biosafety standards is suspicious when exactly the sort of virus being studied suddenly emerges in that city from seemingly nowhere.

 

Nope, they generally evolve over time, they don't usually cross the species barrier so well adapted to transmission between their new hosts.

 

You have evidence to support that claim?

That said, clearly, the FBI know very many things that I do not

I have been involved in the industry for a couple of decades.

[Goat]

7 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

That said, clearly, the FBI know very many things that I do not

I have been involved in the industry for a couple of decades.

Fair enough, in any event, as I said earlier, to a large extent it doesn't matter where it came from, what does matter was that once they found out about the virus, China banned domestic flights bit allowed international ones to continue thus spreading the virus across the world.

[Bob8]

1 minute ago, Goat said:

Fair enough, in any event, as I said earlier, to a large extent it doesn't matter where it came from, what does matter was that once they found out about the virus, China banned domestic flights bit allowed international ones to continue thus spreading the virus across the world.

Indeed!

[nightowl]

13 minutes ago, Goat said:

Fair enough, in any event, as I said earlier, to a large extent it doesn't matter where it came from, what does matter was that once they found out about the virus, China banned domestic flights bit allowed international ones to continue thus spreading the virus across the world.

Was this sinister, reckless behavior or trying to slow it internally but let the external world think there's nothing happening to save face 🤔.  

[BorrowToLeech]

Friend of a friend worked on a Chinese  military project to create a new breed of pangolin that would be hundreds and hundreds of times sexier than a wild pangolin. Says they were getting very close, so close he had to flee to the west ‘for the sake of his marriage’.  Now I’ve never ****** a pangolin, but if I did I think I would be very vocal in advocating the lab leak hypothesis on the house price crash forums. @Goat🤔

[Goat]

17 minutes ago, BorrowToLeech said:

Friend of a friend worked on a Chinese  military project to create a new breed of pangolin that would be hundreds and hundreds of times sexier than a wild pangolin. Says they were getting very close, so close he had to flee to the west ‘for the sake of his marriage’.  Now I’ve never ****** a pangolin, but if I did I think I would be very vocal in advocating the lab leak hypothesis on the house price crash forums. @Goat🤔

You write that all yourself?  Well done.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Goat

[Goat]

21 minutes ago, nightowl said:

Was this sinister, reckless behavior or trying to slow it internally but let the external world think there's nothing happening to save face 🤔.  

Who knows, probably elements of both, the end result was the same.

[nightowl]

17 minutes ago, Goat said:

Who knows, probably elements of both, the end result was the same.

I suspect the result would have still been the same had they stopped out going flights anyway given how hard it is to actually stop such viruses, as we've found out since.

Edited March 4, 2023 by nightowl

[BorrowToLeech]

20 minutes ago, Goat said:

You write that all yourself?  Well done.

Yeah, just messing about, soz. I have nothing to contribute on this topic. 

[Bob8]

3 minutes ago, BorrowToLeech said:

Yeah, just messing about, soz. I have nothing to contribute on this topic. 

You are very welcome! Allow me to offer you a cup of tea (please, do not accept, it does not work on the internet).

[Goat]

52 minutes ago, nightowl said:

I suspect the result would have still been the same had they stopped out going flights anyway given how hard it is to actually stop such viruses, as we've found out since.

At a minimum, it would've slowed it down substantially, we'd almost certainly have been spared the first wave, we'd have had time to build the testing and information infrastructures and would've been able to react quicker when it did arrive, Alpha would likely have never emerged, and we could probably have got through winter 2020/21 with minimal restrictions using the tier system.

[nightowl]

7 minutes ago, Goat said:

At a minimum, it would've slowed it down substantially, we'd almost certainly have been spared the first wave, we'd have had time to build the testing and information infrastructures and would've been able to react quicker when it did arrive, Alpha would likely have never emerged, and we could probably have got through winter 2020/21 with minimal restrictions using the tier system.

Thing is we didn't have flying hundreds of years ago and things spread around the world all the same. Slower maybe, but in the end various plagues made there way across continents. I also suspect without countries like Italy panicking first we wouldn't have done it either.

Indeed, if we were only 20 years ago we would have little idea of what's happening internally in China so would have no forewarning until infections were in full swing.

Edited March 4, 2023 by nightowl

[Goat]

20 minutes ago, nightowl said:

Thing is we didn't have flying hundreds of years ago and things spread around the world all the same. Slower maybe, but in the end various plagues made there way across continents. I also suspect without countries like Italy panicking first we wouldn't have done it either.

By panicking, do you mean "took steps to prevent the total collapse of their healthcare system"?

 

22 minutes ago, nightowl said:

Indeed, if we were only 20 years ago we would have little idea of what's happening internally in China so would have no forewarning until infections were in full swing.

But it's not 20 years ago.

[Flat Bear]

On 26/02/2023 at 15:28, clarkey said:

Said it all along jeez the Wuhan institute of virology it’s right there. They also kept zero covid going far longer it’s as though they new more about the virus than they we letting on

Yes.

It was and is so bl###dy obvious. There was no-one with any real intelligence who didn't think this was by far the most probable source.

I would have been very surprised if it was proven to come from a wet food market or similar.

There are a lot of extremely gullible people out there (it is frightening) who believe anything someone in power tells them. Look at the evidence, where did it come from? what are the facts I can be certain of? Come to your own conclusion.

[Will!]

1 hour ago, BorrowToLeech said:

Yeah, just messing about, soz. I have nothing to contribute on this topic. 

That's quite a lot more than some posters on this thread!

[Quiet Guy]

4 hours ago, Goat said:

... to a large extent it doesn't matter where it came from, what does matter was that once they found out about the virus, China banned domestic flights bit allowed international ones to continue thus spreading the virus across the world.

I'd say this is where we have to agree to disagree. There should be lessons learned and consequences for playing God with pathogens.

[Bob8]

1 minute ago, Quiet Guy said:

I'd say this is where we have to agree to disagree. There should be lessons learned and consequences for playing God with pathogens.

Quick, do the hard work! Take a degree in molecular biology, study epidemiology and virology, contribute to a team slowing improving understanding! Publish your findings.

Or just spout igorant nonsense without bothering, you call!

[nightowl]

1 hour ago, Quiet Guy said:

I'd say this is where we have to agree to disagree. There should be lessons learned and consequences for playing God with pathogens.

Maybe, but we still utilise nuclear technology even after Chernobyl, and there's benefits to understanding viruses better.

Irrespective of lab leak suggestions, there's still an assessment of how to handle future viruses. If the recent Whatsapp  revelations are anything to go by the response was based on political posturing than any reasoned thoughts and resembles a Thick of It episode😬

[Arpeggio]

On 28/02/2023 at 23:36, Arpeggio said:

Having relied on collaboration with China for the vaccine you injected into yourself

On 28/02/2023 at 23:58, petetong said:

Are you sure that is correct ?

Yes. The Trump injection was so.

"On the 10th January, when we received the genetic sequence from the Chinese authority, we immediately started manufacturing....."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-vaccines-idUSKBN1ZN2J8 Quote: "Chinese scientists were able to quickly identify the genetic sequence of the new coronavirus and officials posted it publicly within a few days, allowing scientific research teams to get to work right away.  With the genetic code in hand, scientists can start vaccine development work without needing a sample of the virus."  🤡

On 28/02/2023 at 23:58, petetong said:

Chinese vaccines were crap.

Apparently. In any case you are assuming all batches of all "vaccines" are the same, actually no I'm not thinking you assume that.

Ocular Surface Erosion after Suspected Exposure to Evaporated COVID-19 Vaccine

"On the third day of campaign, a vial, containing a single dose of 0.5 mL, of the vaccine was dropped accidentally onto the floor and broken by an administering nurse. A total of 15 personnel had symptoms and signs of ocular surface erosion at the average time from the accident to the onset of 10.2 ± 7.1 h; 4 personnel also had skin rash."

Edited March 5, 2023 by Arpeggio

[petetong]

1 hour ago, Arpeggio said:

Yes. The Trump injection was so.

"On the 10th January, when we received the genetic sequence from the Chinese authority, we immediately started manufacturing....."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-vaccines-idUSKBN1ZN2J8 Quote: "Chinese scientists were able to quickly identify the genetic sequence of the new coronavirus and officials posted it publicly within a few days, allowing scientific research teams to get to work right away.  With the genetic code in hand, scientists can start vaccine development work without needing a sample of the virus."  🤡

Apparently. In any case you are assuming all batches of all "vaccines" are the same, actually no I'm not thinking you assume that.

Ocular Surface Erosion after Suspected Exposure to Evaporated COVID-19 Vaccine

"On the third day of campaign, a vial, containing a single dose of 0.5 mL, of the vaccine was dropped accidentally onto the floor and broken by an administering nurse. A total of 15 personnel had symptoms and signs of ocular surface erosion at the average time from the accident to the onset of 10.2 ± 7.1 h; 4 personnel also had skin rash."

So they gave the genetic sequence to western scientists means it didn't escape from one of their labs ?  Superb logic, from what I remember the Chinese government was not happy that had been done by one of their scientists as they didn't want that info getting out. Given the first cases in the west occurred in February it made a few weeks difference at most. They made a point of stopping internal travel in China but allowing international travel to continue to the rest of the world, to ensure it wasn't just them and their economy that was screwed. How very noble of them but nice try muppet.

Chinese vaccines were crap, that was widely reported on and why they were still locking down until recently  🤡

Edited March 5, 2023 by petetong