Another prop

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

11 hours ago, Huggy said:

Edit. For some reason the 'free' FT access was denied after I closed the page and the usual method of re-accessing it didn't work. The quote in question was:

Probably a gift article link, it can be opened three times in total. You'll need a subscription, i have one for the FT and the New York Times.

[winkie]

1 hour ago, Speed1987 said:

It's slightly more complex than that...

Local councils pay private providers for care but this is generally capped... a private provider is not going to pay their workforce £14 an hour if that is all the council are paying them.

These agreements often go out to tender.

Moving to the NHS, I agree and my wife is a sister, that her current pay doesn't not match her value. 

The problem, is cheap labour... we don't really need train drivers on 40k, we could make a completely digital system or get a person in India to drive them remotely for peanuts.

So private care workers are no better paid with fewer in work benefits, so to enable larger profits to private business and shareholders..... what about their training, who pays for that? .....then you wonder why they leave, staff turnover is high.......... generally over one million people have left the workplace completely over the CoVid years....... prehaps they are now living from the growth in equity from housing, and rental incomes.

[Speed1987]

31 minutes ago, winkie said:

So private care workers are no better paid with fewer in work benefits, so to enable larger profits to private business and shareholders..... what about their training, who pays for that? .....then you wonder why they leave, staff turnover is high.......... generally over one million people have left the workplace completely over the CoVid years....... prehaps they are now living from the growth in equity from housing, and rental incomes.

Training is generally state funded for social staff, NVQs...

Nursing changed from a bursary system to the student loan system. Which has obviously failed as no one in their right mind is going to pay for the privilege to go to work 😂. So I've been told recently they've bought back some grants for nursing students, but it still doesn't appear to be enough.

If the NHS was private or our health system was completely private without centralised government control. Then I suspect wages would much better match the value these people provide.

Similarly to tradesmen, who can charge differently when supply and demand changes, nurses however see no benefit from changes. Unless they turn their back on the NHS.

I feel this is almost abuse of their labour/skill set. To just purposely import people to reduce their ability to be paid there correct market value.

The problem we have, is our government only want capitalism when it suites and benefits them and their donors... which many conservatives, are starting to resent them for. The market should be free, to much interference.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Speed1987

[byron78]

3 hours ago, Speed1987 said:

No, they haven't trained them, but the incentive for most just isn't there... alot of our own move to the states where pay is much better.

I voted leave, as I wanted people in England to be better rewarded for their efforts, rather than cheap imported labour... but tbh, I knew that would never happen. I think the Conservatives, will get a surprise soon, as their voters are becoming increasingly angered with their behaviour.

Particularly with all the lockdowns and money spent..

I think this is a sound call.

There are loads of economic and labour arguments that are fair enough. Most are quite Marxist (he thought foreigners were used to undermine indigenous workers, and he's almost certainly been proved right there). 

I can completely understand why working class folk voted Leave tbh.

I can also completely understand why the Tory party is currently imploding too...

Edited December 30, 2021 by byron78

[byron78]

2 hours ago, Pebbles said:

Then carers wages should increase. Immigration drives down wages and should be resisted where possible.

Who do we tax to pay for it though?

At the moment it's the proles. That never works. You don't have a lot of money for a start.

[byron78]

3 hours ago, Huggy said:

Remember, furlough only ended a couple of months ago. Once that paid holiday ended, an incentive was immediately created for people to get off their sweaty rear ends and learn new skills. Just as planned. It takes a small while for the free money to get spent, 2 months it appears, so we have to allow these things time to run through the system

We're fully booked up, says lorry driving trainer

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59591799

Not sure what the very specific Indian comment was about? Somali pirates, if the aim was to make Brexiters really think 'No, what have we done', then it would have been more targeted I believe. Or Chinese spies from HK maybe? India's not seen as much as a problem really so the message isn't as urgent or threatening.

It's just what I've heard. Rees Mogg and Sunak are both very big on India. They see filling the UK with cheap Indian labour as a quick and easy solution. Don't shoot the messenger. It's just a Con Club rumour.

Edited December 30, 2021 by byron78

[longgone]

Lot of anger out there for the tories. 

I see why the southend system could be a new voting craze.

 

 

[Huggy]

2 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Probably a gift article link, it can be opened three times in total. You'll need a subscription, i have one for the FT and the New York Times.

Thank you, I didn't realise that was a thing. I will manage my cookies and vpn a bit better in future 😄

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

48 minutes ago, byron78 said:

It's just what I've heard. Rees Mogg and Sunak are both very big on India. They see filling the UK with cheap Indian labour as a quick and easy solution. Don't shoot the messenger. It's just a Con Club rumour.

I can see a new Raj forming, with Mogg lauding it over the cheap workers.

[Huggy]

57 minutes ago, byron78 said:

It's just what I've heard. Rees Mogg and Sunak are both very big on India. They see filling the UK with cheap Indian labour as a quick and easy solution. Don't shoot the messenger. It's just a Con Club rumour.

Can they keep it hidden along with a stonking great HPC? Let's hope not

[winkie]

9 hours ago, Speed1987 said:

Training is generally state funded for social staff, NVQs...

Nursing changed from a bursary system to the student loan system. Which has obviously failed as no one in their right mind is going to pay for the privilege to go to work 😂. So I've been told recently they've bought back some grants for nursing students, but it still doesn't appear to be enough.

If the NHS was private or our health system was completely private without centralised government control. Then I suspect wages would much better match the value these people provide.

Similarly to tradesmen, who can charge differently when supply and demand changes, nurses however see no benefit from changes. Unless they turn their back on the NHS.

I feel this is almost abuse of their labour/skill set. To just purposely import people to reduce their ability to be paid there correct market value.

The problem we have, is our government only want capitalism when it suites and benefits them and their donors... which many conservatives, are starting to resent them for. The market should be free, to much interference.

Private fair enough as long as it continues to be free at point of need, pay was fair/ competitive and money no longer wasted in procurement and propping up middle management desk jobs, free not only for emergency treatment but the run of the mill procedures, treatments, prevention, tests and operations........the worst thing would be turning into a health service like they have in America, where only those who work or can afford the insurance are cared for......where costs have escalated and insurance premiums can be higher than the monthly food bill....Many no longer insure their pets health because it has become over priced, both the treatments and the insurance......careful what we wish for....pets are one thing but exploiting and profiting from the health of the nation is a no,no and not British.

[rollover]

20 hours ago, Speed1987 said:

The sadest part is, that there is no free market for health and social workers... their wages would now increase but the government will not allow that.

I rather free market capitalism, they are slecting who benefits and who doesn't.

Many of them will realize, if they go on benefits they are going to be better off.

 

[byron78]

9 hours ago, Huggy said:

Can they keep it hidden along with a stonking great HPC? Let's hope not

Still not convinced it'll crash. Sorry. 

I'm old though.

Woman couldn't get mortgages without a man until the 80s. There are just so many things that have changed to inflate the market that the fag packet math lot never factor in.

If it does crash, High Street rents (and shops for sale) would be the thing I'd expect to go first. Hasn't happened yet despite most of our high streets looking like war zones now.

 

[byron78]

1 hour ago, rollover said:

Many of them will realize, if they go on benefits they are going to be better off.

 

Where? Not in the UK. I have never met anyone in real life who has done this and kept doing this.

A few farmers maybe.

 

[steve99]

On 30/12/2021 at 15:11, MARTINX9 said:

Didn't EU freedom of movement give open door access to the UK millions of almost entirely white European people - often with few or no skills - and discriminate against mostly black and brown people from the rest of the world?

Sorry if you missed that - post Brexit we can now judge people on their skills and the value they add to society not on the colour of their passports!

Of course the wider debate should be why we aren't prepared to care for our own elderly like they do in many parts of Europe and secondly why we can't recruit carers here? Possibly as the pay is so poor? And then we voluntary sack tens of thousands of them - and find we have a shortage.

We do have 1.4 million currently unemployed and registered for work. Are they all unemployable?

Many are deemed unemployable by employers. When I lost my real job at the age of 49, I was never to be employed again in my hard won IT/technical field of employment.  This was purely based on ageism in London at the time.  A year later my wife got tossed out of work to make way for rotating Indian contractors, ostensibly working and being paid in India but onshore in the UK.  She got a short contact after that but then became quite sick for a while. When she later applied for jobs, ie in an industry that she had 25 years experience, the agencies and employers deemed her unemployable for a)being 49 years old and b) having taken nearly a year off work.  Neither of us has had a decent job since and even part time McJobs have been difficult to get for the very same  idiotic reasons. The combination of prejudices and pickiness of the combined forces of employers, managers and agencies deprives businesses of a sh*tload of decent employees.  Then of course they go screaming 'shortage' to the government to get an immigrant concession.   What HR departments and employment agencies are completely oblivious to is the fact that Qualification + Experience is always worth a lot more than just Qualification but on the whole they equate them as being equal, especially if they think they can get it cheaper.    My ex company found out when they exported most of our work to India, into an newly set up tech department with a heap of newly qualified IT graduates but almost zero experience apart from a few short courses they put on for them in the UK,  Of course within a very short time of this being set up, the whole lot collapsed and the already failing company lost half of its customers in a very few short months.

[petetong]

59 minutes ago, steve99 said:

Many are deemed unemployable by employers. When I lost my real job at the age of 49, I was never to be employed again in my hard won IT/technical field of employment.  This was purely based on ageism in London at the time.  A year later my wife got tossed out of work to make way for rotating Indian contractors, ostensibly working and being paid in India but onshore in the UK.  She got a short contact after that but then became quite sick for a while. When she later applied for jobs, ie in an industry that she had 25 years experience, the agencies and employers deemed her unemployable for a)being 49 years old and b) having taken nearly a year off work.  Neither of us has had a decent job since and even part time McJobs have been difficult to get for the very same  idiotic reasons. The combination of prejudices and pickiness of the combined forces of employers, managers and agencies deprives businesses of a sh*tload of decent employees.  Then of course they go screaming 'shortage' to the government to get an immigrant concession.   What HR departments and employment agencies are completely oblivious to is the fact that Qualification + Experience is always worth a lot more than just Qualification but on the whole they equate them as being equal, especially if they think they can get it cheaper.    My ex company found out when they exported most of our work to India, into an newly set up tech department with a heap of newly qualified IT graduates but almost zero experience apart from a few short courses they put on for them in the UK,  Of course within a very short time of this being set up, the whole lot collapsed and the already failing company lost half of its customers in a very few short months.

IT is not a career to go into anymore. It's what they did with a lot of blue collar manufacturing jobs. Now they are going after the white collar/tech jobs together with those lost to increasing automation. Elon Tusk for example was saying recently they'd replaced a big chunk of heuristic C++ code with a neural net in his cars autopilot, so not even software development is going to be immune and a lot of infrastructure roles have been lost to the cloud etc.

Edited January 1, 2022 by petetong
typo

[Si1]

The Guardian: UK ministers eager to ease immigration rules for Indian citizens.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/01/uk-ministers-eager-to-ease-immigration-rules-for-indian-citizens

 

 

[winkie]

9 hours ago, Si1 said:

The Guardian: UK ministers eager to ease immigration rules for Indian citizens.
 

Why will they be cheaper than Europeans?........or will they be in competition for the working middle class people, in white collar jobs......you know those with university degrees, personally I don't have a problem with it, what I do have a problem with is the selling of brexit was about immigration when it wasn't........big business needs competitive labour, what I do have a problem with is it is the people who are used as the scapegoats, when it is the policies that nudge people into people taking appropriate actions and moving to certain places..... like moving to a place where carrots are held with the opportunity to improve their lives.......remember the £10 pome.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Pound_Poms

[MarkD]

9 hours ago, Si1 said:

The Guardian: UK ministers eager to ease immigration rules for Indian citizens.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/01/uk-ministers-eager-to-ease-immigration-rules-for-indian-citizens

 

 

You beat me to it. So much for the ‘we’ll have an Australian style points System’.  

[Speed1987]

59 minutes ago, MarkD said:

You beat me to it. So much for the ‘we’ll have an Australian style points System’.  

Yep, Africa will be next.... they'll flood the country with cheap labour.

[coypondboy]

3 hours ago, Speed1987 said:

Yep, Africa will be next.... they'll flood the country with cheap labour.

They already have lots of staffers and zimbabweans here since mandela came into power with millions still eligible due to dual nationality.  Add in the Nigerians already here and we are going to be even fuller.  

[winkie]

1 minute ago, coypondboy said:

They already have lots of staffers and zimbabweans here since mandela came into power with millions still eligible due to dual nationality.  Add in the Nigerians already here and we are going to be even fuller.  

People just love us.

[MarkD]

Here comes the justification for tens of thousands of additional staff

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10362189/Nearly-one-10-NHS-staff-work-New-Years-Eve.html

[steve99]

13 hours ago, MarkD said:

You beat me to it. So much for the ‘we’ll have an Australian style points System’.  

Australian points system? . You mean the one that let in several million low paid workers to drive trucks, buses and clean office toilets? mostly from India, China and SE Asia  All ostensibly qualified with degrees or in Australia to get important education such as hairdressing, cooking school etc and then permanent residence.  That's on top of the open door access to IT workers, engineers and accountants etc.  It got so bad that fussy employers were demanding accounting degrees for accounts clerks paid min wage and zero chance of ever being more than that.   This in fact is what the Tories want and are going to get.  Brexit had nothing to do with immigration. 

[winkie]

Has more to do with moving money and avoiding taxes than lowering immigration.......money easily moved to different places, people easily moved from other places, global trading.......lots of work to do to repair everything we had and thew away.....taken a huge gamble...... lamentable.

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by winkie