Cummings

[Staffsknot]

15 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

The hard left hate grammar schools. They seem to think there is some nirvana  were comprehensive education gives equal opportunitis to all. My grandfather passed the entrance exam to bradford grammar in 1914, was told he had to go down the pit by his father and then fought in WW1. 'won the military medal at Passchaendale, we do not know how as he would not talk about it, tho dad said that George's body was covered in healed wounds from head to toe. 

My father studied chemistry at Leeds and worked for RTZ in a good job. actually there a lot of engineers in the family, but mainly steam engine maintainers etc. My Grandfather worked for Blackburn aircraft and was the chief tool designer of the amazing BlackBurn Buccaneer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Buccaneer

Back to the left, the modern left leading people hate education and achievement, despite what they say. The fact is that high achievement only works for a few and the others have to make a different life.They are not cool with this.

My wifes family are all musicians, she is a distant cousin of Elgar.

Finland banned private schools, they near instantly improved state schools and it is credited as helping increase tax take - rich folks took an interest in state schools being well funded when their kids had to go.

That would be famously Communist hating Finland who quite like a right wing government - but they all advocate welfare state. Guess that blows up some left / right jibes on here and its more about drferrence and class structures that pervade UK.

[debtlessmanc]

41 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Finland banned private schools, they near instantly improved state schools and it is credited as helping increase tax take - rich folks took an interest in state schools being well funded when their kids had to go.

That would be famously Communist hating Finland who quite like a right wing government - but they all advocate welfare state. Guess that blows up some left / right jibes on here and its more about drferrence and class structures that pervade UK.

Grammar schools are state schools, i am not advocating private schools

What happens with states schools now is that wealthy people pay top prices for places in good catchments.  The working class are then deprived of the best state education- again. My (communist party member) brother in-law feigned seperation from his then wife to move in with his mum and dad to get their daughter into the best local state school. Once she was in they "reconciled".

The main effect of private education is to focus a schools intake on children whose parents care about their education. Grammar schools did the same but with state money so they were free.

As an academic i know a surprising number of people who home school simply because their local comprehensive is not very good, but they disapprove of private education. Of course some countries ban that too.

Edited June 1, 2021 by debtlessmanc

[byron78]

42 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Finland banned private schools, they near instantly improved state schools and it is credited as helping increase tax take - rich folks took an interest in state schools being well funded when their kids had to go.

That would be famously Communist hating Finland who quite like a right wing government - but they all advocate welfare state. Guess that blows up some left / right jibes on here and its more about drferrence and class structures that pervade UK.

I adore Finland. People there seem so happy. Haven't been in over a decade mind.

They famously distributed their oil bonanza in the 80s to the proles rather than pouring it over the city and using it to drive artificial tax cuts etc like Thatcher. Most people there have a six figure retirement wedge as a result.

They also take pride in tax paid and make tax records public.

All very socialist of course (as is their famous education system). I think the problem you'd have in the UK is some of our schools are institutions now - they bring in an awful lot of money from overseas students etc. Not that the proles see any of it of course.

Edited June 1, 2021 by byron78

[Staffsknot]

4 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

My communist party member brother in-law feigned seperation from his then wife to move in with his mum and dad to get their daughter to get in the best local school.

Kinda blows the previous statement about the hard-left believing in equal opportunity of state schools vs hate grammar, otherwise this is nowt to do with grammar vs state and just you making a statement your BiL is a deceitful so and so - which again the Communist ref is hardly topical except in the realms of Daily Mail.

So either:

1. It was a grammar and your statement on hard left and grammars was gash

2. It wasn't a grammar and you're just scrabbling for a link story about a left leaning person and education to backup what you said

[Staffsknot]

3 minutes ago, byron78 said:

I adore Finland. People there seem so happy. Haven't been in over a decade mind.

They famously distributed their oil bonanza in the 80s to the proles rather than pouring it over the city and using it to drive artificial tax cuts etc like Thatcher. Most people there have a six figure retirement wedge as a result.

They also take pride in tax paid and make tax records public.

All very socialist of course (as is their famous education system). I think the problem you'd have in the UK is some of our schools are institutions now - they bring in an awful lot of money from overseas students etc. Not that the proles see any of it of course.

Yeah even the right wing govs are into welfare state spending - although my Norwegian ex used to call them drunk gangsters - lot of Scandi rivalry. Have Finnish friends and been a few times.

In Finland a big tax bill is seen as a sign doing well and like saying I'm rich funnily enough 

[debtlessmanc]

1 minute ago, Staffsknot said:

Kinda blows the previous statement about the hard-left believing in equal opportunity of state schools vs hate grammar, otherwise this is nowt to do with grammar vs state and just you making a statement your BiL is a deceitful so and so - which again the Communist ref is hardly topical except in the realms of Daily Mail.

So either:

1. It was a grammar and your statement on hard left and grammars was gash

2. It wasn't a grammar and you're just scrabbling for a link story about a left leaning person and education to backup what you said

Sorry- it was an example from my family of the extremes that the middle class will go to to get thir kids a headstart.

The communist party reference, well he was a hippocrite, it is a fact, many on the left are when it comes to their childrens education.

Their are no easy solutions to "fairness". Suppose the upper classes just send their kids to schools in switzerland, what you going to do ban travel there?

I happen to believe that grammar schools serve upward mobility the best of all they ways thought or tried in this country. Thats all.

[debtlessmanc]

4 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Yeah even the right wing govs are into welfare state spending - although my Norwegian ex used to call them drunk gangsters - lot of Scandi rivalry. Have Finnish friends and been a few times.

In Finland a big tax bill is seen as a sign doing well and like saying I'm rich funnily enough 

Finland has its problems

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/28/people-of-african-descent-face-dire-picture-of-racism-in-eu

 

[spyguy]

39 minutes ago, byron78 said:

I adore Finland. People there seem so happy. Haven't been in over a decade mind.

They famously distributed their oil bonanza in the 80s to the proles rather than pouring it over the city and using it to drive artificial tax cuts etc like Thatcher. Most people there have a six figure retirement wedge as a result.

They also take pride in tax paid and make tax records public.

All very socialist of course (as is their famous education system). I think the problem you'd have in the UK is some of our schools are institutions now - they bring in an awful lot of money from overseas students etc. Not that the proles see any of it of course.

iirc correctly Finland has Europe's highest suicide rate.

 

[byron78]

1 hour ago, spyguy said:

iirc correctly Finland has Europe's highest suicide rate.

 

Wouldn't surprise me tbh. In the northern parts. Especially when the sun goes down for months at a time.

I think it's dropped massively from where it was historically mind (still higher than anyone else in Europe, but below America's now).

Edit: wow, more than halved since the 90s.

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190924-being-depressed-in-the-worlds-happiest-country

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by byron78

[Staffsknot]

6 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Finland has its problems

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/28/people-of-african-descent-face-dire-picture-of-racism-in-eu

 

And that's chucking out another whatabout to deflect from your statement.

People on the right tend to like welfare when things go tits up but it has bob all to do with the convo and is just more left / right diatribes like what you've been shovelling just.

As for your assertion rich people will send their kids to Switzerland or an International School - fine but then they won't see much of their kids and Switzerland cannot accomodate all the rich kids currently going private.

But again you are conflating class deference and school tie with political spectrum to try and make a point about 'lefties' stick, while not doing a particularly effective job of it imho.

Now you could have made a broader point about parents wanting what is best for their kids and how that trumped any political views of said BiL but sounds also like working with system got not system wish had.

[Staffsknot]

5 hours ago, byron78 said:

Wouldn't surprise me tbh. In the northern parts. Especially when the sun goes down for months at a time.

I think it's dropped massively from where it was historically mind (still higher than anyone else in Europe, but below America's now).

Edit: wow, more than halved since the 90s.

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190924-being-depressed-in-the-worlds-happiest-country

 

Guy knew worked wildlife in Alaska at a US facility - you paired with someone to see if you were coping / watch eachbother. The plan was abandoned after two security guys were found to have plotted to kill each other in suicide pact.

Sleeping in Svalbard or N Norway took some getting used to, even Bergen in Summer messes with head

[debtlessmanc]

51 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

And that's chucking out another whatabout to deflect from your statement.

People on the right tend to like welfare when things go tits up but it has bob all to do with the convo and is just more left / right diatribes like what you've been shovelling just.

As for your assertion rich people will send their kids to Switzerland or an International School - fine but then they won't see much of their kids and Switzerland cannot accomodate all the rich kids currently going private.

But again you are conflating class deference and school tie with political spectrum to try and make a point about 'lefties' stick, while not doing a particularly effective job of it imho.

Now you could have made a broader point about parents wanting what is best for their kids and how that trumped any political views of said BiL but sounds also like working with system got not system wish had.

There is a lot going with you isnt there?, a fair few chips on the shoulder for a start.

deleted

look its not the world i live in i guess, i am surrounded by high achievers, most of whom are immigrants or who went to state school.

The bias in the uk public school thing is mainly in politics and govt posts (eg the civil service) many of us (high achieving state school types) would never go into those sort of things anyway.

eg my wife whose father was a labour politician, she despises politics. her trajectory is state school, redbrick uni, finance director- 6 figure salary. no interest in being in the public eye in any sense.

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by debtlessmanc

[Huggy]

Cummings has really done some damage with the Conservatives' popularity over Labour plummeting to just a 14 point lead. What Sir Keir needs is a bit more kneeling!

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/28/voting-intention-con-43-lab-29-27-28-may

😂

Shame these things are such a pointless waste of time, however I do enjoy the irony

[Bruce Banner]

7 minutes ago, Huggy said:

Cummings has really done some damage with the Conservatives' popularity over Labour plummeting to just a 14 point lead. What Sir Keir needs is a bit more kneeling!

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/28/voting-intention-con-43-lab-29-27-28-may

😂

Shame these things are such a pointless waste of time, however I do enjoy the irony

Who owns YouGov?

[simon99]

2 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Who owns YouGov?

Presumably the left never mention these polls when they show in their favour.

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

21 minutes ago, Huggy said:

Cummings has really done some damage with the Conservatives' popularity over Labour plummeting to just a 14 point lead. What Sir Keir needs is a bit more kneeling!

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/05/28/voting-intention-con-43-lab-29-27-28-may

😂

Shame these things are such a pointless waste of time, however I do enjoy the irony

They did drop 3 points though, as did Johnsons best prime minister rating. Is this the total extent of the "damage" imposed ?

Only one of those points was picked up by Labour in both cases.

It would have been interesting to find a Hancock tracker to see what the effect on him was.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Gigantic Purple Slug

[Staffsknot]

1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

There is a lot going with you isnt there?, a fair few chips on the shoulder for a start

No chips, fish or mushy peas on these shoulders I'm just watching yet another thread descend into a load of jibes about Lefties when its about that apparent famous left-winger... Dominic 'I put a Tory PM in' Cummings.

Just amazed how these things developed and when anyone questions it we get - well what about this unrelated thing.

Dominic Cummings - lefties hate grammars and they are the only way we get a good education - my brother in law is a leftie and he's a hypocrite - Finland's a bit racist so that school thing is less valid... quite the progression to shoehorn in lefties are bad. No I am not a communist btw.

[simon99]

1 hour ago, Staffsknot said:

No chips, fish or mushy peas on these shoulders I'm just watching yet another thread descend into a load of jibes about Lefties when its about that apparent famous left-winger... Dominic 'I put a Tory PM in' Cummings.

Just amazed how these things developed and when anyone questions it we get - well what about this unrelated thing.

Dominic Cummings - lefties hate grammars and they are the only way we get a good education - my brother in law is a leftie and he's a hypocrite - Finland's a bit racist so that school thing is less valid... quite the progression to shoehorn in lefties are bad. No I am not a communist btw.

People can post what they like, I don't know why anyone would expect a post about how terrible the Tories are on the back of Cumming's testimony to not be at least challenged in some way.  Especially given how the Left previously viewed him (which generally speaking wasn't favourable in my own experience, far from it).

Edited June 1, 2021 by simon99

[debtlessmanc]

1 hour ago, Staffsknot said:

No chips, fish or mushy peas on these shoulders I'm just watching yet another thread descend into a load of jibes about Lefties when its about that apparent famous left-winger... Dominic 'I put a Tory PM in' Cummings.

Just amazed how these things developed and when anyone questions it we get - well what about this unrelated thing.

Dominic Cummings - lefties hate grammars and they are the only way we get a good education - my brother in law is a leftie and he's a hypocrite - Finland's a bit racist so that school thing is less valid... quite the progression to shoehorn in lefties are bad. No I am not a communist btw.

I really do (other than for corbyn) vote labour. My views are left of centre and involve raising taxation for better services. I just think that the "class war" type views of British society will not lead to a better or fairer system, they are about hate and division.

[MancTom]

20 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Grammar schools are state schools, i am not advocating private schools

 

hmm - I went to Grammar school and it was private (this was in the 1990's). So not always state funded.

Mind you I think it was a waste of money looking back on it - 50% of the teachers were useless (e.g french teacher who could not teach because the class was completely out of her control, physics teacher who did not know his physics - I knew more than he did and he hated me for it!). My impression was the money just bought access to better sports and music facilities etc + opportunity to network (though only if you came from the right sort of family, so didn't do me any good).

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by MancTom

[pig]

21 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Sorry- it was an example from my family of the extremes that the middle class will go to to get thir kids a headstart.

The communist party reference, well he was a hippocrite, it is a fact, many on the left are when it comes to their childrens education.

Their are no easy solutions to "fairness". Suppose the upper classes just send their kids to schools in switzerland, what you going to do ban travel there?

I happen to believe that grammar schools serve upward mobility the best of all they ways thought or tried in this country. Thats all.

Is that hypocrisy ? that would make plenty of atheists  ‘hypocritical’ over their children’s education too...

[byron78]

I'm heavily involved in the church. Always have been.

Privately, I think it's a load of old nonsense. But (believe it or not) I wanted to be a vicar for a while as a kid. And then I read the Bible. And then I didn't.

Hypocrisy is all part of being British. We're an odd sort. Always have been!

 

[debtlessmanc]

38 minutes ago, pig said:

Is that hypocrisy ? that would make plenty of atheists  ‘hypocritical’ over their children’s education too...

oh yeh, that was my ex- wifes suggestion, she went back to catholic church to get our kids into the local catholic comprehensive. She didn't believe a word of it either.

[Bruce Banner]

Breaking news.... Cummings has just published screen shots of WhatsApp conversations with BJ to back up allegations about Hancock . 

[Huggy]

11 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Breaking news.... Cummings has just published screen shots of WhatsApp conversations with BJ to back up allegations about Hancock . 

Earlier this year I would have put money on Harry and The Meg being the ones slowly releasing embarrassing info just to keep themselves in the news. Hancock must have really peed him off.