Mass changes to UK immigration requirements

[Confusion of VIs]

 

It is a mystery why Remainer politicans didn't do this.  I often wonder if some of them were secretly trying to destroy the EU.

Or maybe they should thought that everyone who didn't agree with them was racist and so should be ignored (good move that was).

At the time all their attention was focused on the out of control illegal immigration,  FoM migration was seen both as a minor issue and way of reducing the labour shortage that was a pull factor for illegal immigration.  They also had Mervyn King banging the drum for unrestricted FoM migration, saying we needed to gain first mover advantage.

[debtlessmanc]

 

Before the referendum: too difficult, not worth expanding your political capital on, get criticized in the Guardian. Why bother, when you are certain Remain is going to win?

After the referendum: no senior leadership of any party of any national significance wanted to touch that. The Conservatives and Labour leadership wanted to respect the result, with the smaller parties (and individuals within Labour) wanted a second referendum/no Brexit, without any changes made. 

It needed ID cards and a local registry of residents. The English, in particular, have a visceral hatred of the concept of state ID cards. I have encountered UK people who were very pro EU and remain and actually did not believe me when i said that all the other EU states had ID cards and local registry. They actually thought i was making it up to slur the other members!

Edited December 31, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[Confusion of VIs]

 

So blocking benefits to EUers and preventing CB being sent to Eastern Europe was possible without impacting eligibility for UK citizens or exposing the government to a legal challenge? 

If that's true, though i suspect it's not as simple as you believe, then why didn't a single remainer politician (of which there were many) highlight this ingenious Home Office plan as a means to address leaver concerns and propose a 2nd ref on that basis? As far as I could see there was no benefit reform argument, just simply accusing leavers of being thick/racist/lied to/ etc and demanding a referendum rerun with no remain reform. 

It  was an accounting change to how the benefits system was funded becoming effectively an insurance system funded by a payments accrued as part of child benefit. As any other EU government would have the option of paying for their nationals to join the system it was compliant with EU rules. 

Most times you heard something could not be done because of EU rules it was something they did not want to do and EU rules were a convenient excuse. 

[spyguy]

 

Michael Heseltine said before the referendum that we would join the Euro in his lifetime (which as he is quite old I assume meant within 10 years, not that I wish him harm)

Heseltine might outlive the Euro....

[Confusion of VIs]

 

It needed ID cards and a local registry of residents. The English, in particular, have a visceral hatred of the concept of state ID cards. I have encountered UK people who were very pro EU and remain and actually did not believe me when i said that all the other EU states had ID cards and local registry. They actually thought i was making it up to slur the other members!

Would they be upset to know that the Id card system and the passport system were one and the same thing. Cancelling the Id card system did not change the back end infrastructure or what information the government has access to about you. 

[debtlessmanc]

 

Would they be upset to know that the Id card system and the passport system were one and the same thing. Cancelling the Id card system did not change the back end infrastructure or what information the government has access to about you. 

 

[debtlessmanc]

 

Would they be upset to know that the Id card system and the passport system were one and the same thing. Cancelling the Id card system did not change the back end infrastructure or what information the government has access to about you. 

The UK was hopeless, it never invoiced other states for treating its citizens, everyother state invoiced the UK for treating its citizens. Erasmus, £200m came into the uk to educate 37,000 students. 37,000 chinese students would pay £2Bn into the economy...

[A17]

 

It  was an accounting change to how the benefits system was funded becoming effectively an insurance system funded by a payments accrued as part of child benefit. As any other EU government would have the option of paying for their nationals to join the system it was compliant with EU rules. 

Most times you heard something could not be done because of EU rules it was something they did not want to do and EU rules were a convenient excuse. 

True. "We'd love to do something, but our hands are tied by Brussels" was a convenient half-truth that politicians hid behind for too long.

 

It needed ID cards and a local registry of residents. The English, in particular, have a visceral hatred of the concept of state ID cards. I have encountered UK people who were very pro EU and remain and actually did not believe me when i said that all the other EU states had ID cards and local registry. They actually thought i was making it up to slur the other members!

Perhaps it is another example of why the UK could never take advantage of the loopholes and workarounds in the law. A completely different population outlook, political system and government bureaucracy to the other European countries.

I could run a marathon. I have two legs that work, and nothing external is stopping me. However, I am not a runner and would find it impossible. However, if I joined a social club full of sporty people they might very easily be able to run a marathon, and express surprise that I could not. 

[Confusion of VIs]

 

The UK was hopeless, it never invoiced other states for treating its citizens, everyother state invoiced the UK for treating its citizens. Erasmus, £200m came into the uk to educate 37,000 students. 37,000 chinese students would pay £2Bn into the economy...

The NHS was never set up to charge for care, they haven't even got the basics like knowing how much to charge. My wife reckons that in her trust the money recovered doesn't even cover the cost of trying to recover it.

My daughter pays around 200E a term for her course in Munich, and that's mostly student union fees, no idea who pays the rest.

[A17]

 

The UK was hopeless, it never invoiced other states for treating its citizens, everyother state invoiced the UK for treating its citizens. Erasmus, £200m came into the uk to educate 37,000 students. 37,000 chinese students would pay £2Bn into the economy...

Cancer patient died after NHS demanded £30,000 for treatment

A sad story of course, but the UK is made out to be the bad guy.

 

“During this period, we advised Ms Spencer and her family that she was clinically well enough to return to Jamaica to receive treatment there but she refused, despite her visa having expired in June 2016. We made it clear that, as she was not eligible for free NHS treatment, she would be charged.

“The Royal Free London is required by law to recoup monies owed to the NHS for treating overseas patients. We have made repeated efforts to establish whether we can be reimbursed from Ms Spencer’s estate for the treatment she received but these have not been acknowledged."

 

[iamnumerate]

 

Heseltine might outlive the Euro....

I hope so

[debtlessmanc]

 

 

The NHS was never set up to charge for care, they haven't even got the basics like knowing how much to charge. My wife reckons that in her trust the money recovered doesn't even cover the cost of trying to recover it.

My daughter pays around 200E a term for her course in Munich, and that's mostly student union fees, no idea who pays the rest.

This is like the argument put forward by the privatized rail companies that as so few people dodged fairs, inspectors were a waste of money. next years fare dodging went through the roof. If you do not collect the figures, how do you know whether the costs outweigh the benefits?

now we can say at the borders "we have a bill from the NHS outstanding from 2022, sorry no admittance unless you pay.

A kiwi friend had exactly this happen to him when he tried to enter NZ after a decade away wrt to a speeding fine he had conveniently forgotten about.

Edited December 31, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[Keith Wibble]

 

There has been no austerity.

Seriously.

The level of increase of ukgov spending levelled off. Then covid happened.

UK us probably going yo have proper austerity now. And a massive rethink of public services and spending.

Those in the former red wall towns may have a different view and ieeceorion is everything. 

Prior to Austerity the Blairites proper shafted these people and they felt abandoned and kicked back. 

[Keith Wibble]

 

So we come back to how out of touch the politicos were, remember Brown and his dismissal of the woman who asked why there where so many EE migrants- "Bigoted woman".

Democracy is what it is, the least worst form of govt. Hitler got elected because many sensible germans held their nose and voted for him rather than soviet style communism, turned out both were equally bad. Many British people were revolted by Farage and his brand of xenophobia and little englander. However the alternative to that kind of things is not open boarders and assimilation into some globalist's wet dream. The UK managed to avoid the idealogical nightmares of the 20th century. It may yet avoid those of the 21st.

 

I heard that he though she said f*****g over here instead of flocking. 

[debtlessmanc]

 

I heard that he though she said f*****g over here instead of flocking. 

He did not say that he heard that, he might have thought it but he certainly should have turned his microphone off. However, if he thought she said it, he should have said something to her face and she would have put him right. He assumed she was a bigot, which says a lot about him and his ilk.

Edited December 31, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[debtlessmanc]

 

 

My daughter pays around 200E a term for her course in Munich, and that's mostly student union fees, no idea who pays the rest.

The UK treats Higher education as a business and makes a lot of money out of it. One of the the upshots of this is that if it really needs to retain eg a nobel laureate, it can pay them huge salaries. it is not a good match to the EU states systems.

Edited December 31, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[winkie]

 

The UK treats Higher education as a business and makes a lot of money out of it. One of the the upshots of this is that if it really needs to retain eg a nobel laureate, it can pay them huge salaries. it is not a good match to the EU states systems.

It's a business......the value is only determined by what others value it at.......why you can learn so much via lectures, information, teaching and training on-line for free or very little money......thousands are studying now on-line learning independently, learning languages, playing an instrument, and all manner of subjects they are interested in, self taught.........all potential employers need to do is test understanding.

Edited December 31, 2020 by winkie

[Confusion of VIs]

 

 

This is like the argument put forward by the privatized rail companies that as so few people dodged fairs, inspectors were a waste of money. next years fare dodging went through the roof. If you do not collect the figures, how do you know whether the costs outweigh the benefits?

now we can say at the borders "we have a bill from the NHS outstanding from 2022, sorry no admittance unless you pay.

A kiwi friend had exactly this happen to him when he tried to enter NZ after a decade away wrt to a speeding fine he had conveniently forgotten about.

A couple of times in my career I have been involved in setting up systems for  internal charging, it is a lot of work and a large ongoing overhead that needs an equally large payoff to be worthwhile.  It's not at all obvious it is a good fit for an organisation where less than 1% of its services are potentially chargeable, and where almost all the medical staff consider they have more important things to do than fill in invoices. 

[debtlessmanc]

 

A couple of times in my career I have been involved in setting up systems for  internal charging, it is a lot of work and a large ongoing overhead that needs an equally large payoff to be worthwhile.  It's not at all obvious it is a good fit for an organisation where less than 1% of its services are potentially chargeable, and where almost all the medical staff consider they have more important things to do than fill in invoices. 

So why do other states bill the uk?

Edited December 31, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[debtlessmanc]

 

It's a business......the value is only determined by what others value it at.......why you can learn so much via lectures, information, teaching and training on-line for free or very little money......thousands are studying now on-line learning independently, learning languages, playing an instrument, and all manner of subjects they are interested in, self taught.........all potential employers need to do is test understanding.

i did not create the system, it is a combination of learning native english, and reliable assessment.

[Will!]

 

It is a mystery why Remainer politicans didn't do this.  I often wonder if some of them were secretly trying to destroy the EU.

The byzantine social security regulations have been a blind spot for many politicians.  Tony Blair famously appointed Frank Field as Minister of Welfare Reform in 1997 to "think the unthinkable" about social security and then effectively fired him when he did just that.

Although Frank Field didn't have anything to say specifically about immigration and social security it is, of course, another massive irony that if Tony Blair, the archetypical "Good European" had listened to Field then Brexit probably wouldn't have happened. 

Working Welfare- Frank Field.pdf

Edited December 31, 2020 by Will!
be specific

[Will!]

 

The NHS was never set up to charge for care, they haven't even got the basics like knowing how much to charge. My wife reckons that in her trust the money recovered doesn't even cover the cost of trying to recover it.

Well, the first National Health Service (Charges to Overseas Visitors) Regulations were made in 1982, so someone might have grasped the basics by now.

 

A couple of times in my career I have been involved in setting up systems for  internal charging, it is a lot of work and a large ongoing overhead that needs an equally large payoff to be worthwhile.  It's not at all obvious it is a good fit for an organisation where less than 1% of its services are potentially chargeable, and where almost all the medical staff consider they have more important things to do than fill in invoices. 

It is more of a local problem that a national one.  In some areas the impact is negligible, in others it's very significant.

I had the privilege of working with a very competent overseas visitors officer at the Luton & Dunstable hospital. He identified a definite deterrent effect: once word got around the community that the hospital was routinely making the correct residence checks then the number of people trying it on dropped measurably.

[Confusion of VIs]

 

So why do other states bill the uk?

At a guess their healthcare systems are set up for billing, here it is an expensive add on with not much return to justify it.

[spyguy]

 

A couple of times in my career I have been involved in setting up systems for  internal charging, it is a lot of work and a large ongoing overhead that needs an equally large payoff to be worthwhile.  It's not at all obvious it is a good fit for an organisation where less than 1% of its services are potentially chargeable, and where almost all the medical staff consider they have more important things to do than fill in invoices. 

Running the NHS payroll and pension takes a lot work and effort.

Maybe that needs scrapping?

A billing system is not hard. It would pay for itself and much more.

Id people who turn up. Check if they are entitled to free treatment or have the correct cover.

If not advise them of the payment options.

Try rocking up at a German hospital without insurance and see what happens.

 

 

 

[A17]

 

Id people who turn up. Check if they are entitled to free treatment or have the correct cover.

If not advise them of the payment options.

The hospitals would be screamed at for "getting in the way of care"