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Mass changes to UK immigration requirements


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There is nothing wrong with the fair exchange of people and moderate immigration.  Mass immigration done for the cynical reason of undermining wages and conditions is the issue.  Boris's 'Australian' points system will be gamed just like it is in Australia. If employers squeal   “shortage ” Just like in Australia they will be able to import workers.  In Aus there are thousands of unemployed IT workers but at the same time companies are importing thousands from India on one dodgy contract or another.  My wife took some time off sick then they wouldn't have her back on account of offshoring her part of the IT department, next thing there were Indian workers occupying the office who were on some sort of rotating contract, ostensibly working and being paid in India but resident and working in Melbourne.    Brexiteers are going to be sorely disappointed, they being used as nothing more than 'useful idiots' to 'get brexit done'  for the big boyz to exploit.

I fear you might be right, brexit has never been about immigration, all that will happen is will get another type of immigration that will benefit wealth not necessarily the wealth of the people directly.....for anyone against immigration they might be a tad disappointed.;)

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Brexiteers are going to be sorely disappointed, they being used as nothing more than 'useful idiots' to 'get brexit done'  for the big boyz to exploit.

You only need to read the posts here or in the press to see that what mostly vexes brexiters are low wage, benefit claiming migrants or indeed vagrants in London. It sounds from what you say as though the oz system would stop that and they will be satisfied.

Edited by debtlessmanc
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You only need to read the posts here or in the press to see that what mostly vexes brexiters are low wage, benefit claiming migrants or indeed vagrants in London. It sounds from what you say as though the oz system would stop that and they will be satisfied.

I supported Brexit because I don't agree with paying people to come here*.  It is possible that Boris is stupid enough to carry on paying people to come here and do nothing.

The Oz style system I could cope with.

 

*We could have stopped that without Brexit, but obviously weren't going to!

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I fear you might be right, brexit has never been about immigration, all that will happen is will get another type of immigration that will benefit wealth not necessarily the wealth of the people directly.....for anyone against immigration they might be a tad disappointed.;)

No, immigration did have a large part to play in Brexit. The problem though is that some people (mostly those complaining about Brexit) seem to think they've got a legitimate point in pointing out that it isn't a silver bullet to deal with the immigration problem. We know that the fundamental cause of this vastly irresponsible rapid immigration-driven population growth is the government, and they've been using the EU as a tool to further that. Therefore removing access to one of the tools is a step in dealing with the problem, even if it's not the only one or even the biggest, and knowing that the same irresponsible short-termist clowns who care little about the damage they do will try to find another avenue to supply their addiction.

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There is nothing wrong with the fair exchange of people and moderate immigration.  Mass immigration done for the cynical reason of undermining wages and conditions is the issue.  Boris's 'Australian' points system will be gamed just like it is in Australia. If employers squeal   “shortage ” Just like in Australia they will be able to import workers.  In Aus there are thousands of unemployed IT workers but at the same time companies are importing thousands from India on one dodgy contract or another.  My wife took some time off sick then they wouldn't have her back on account of offshoring her part of the IT department, next thing there were Indian workers occupying the office who were on some sort of rotating contract, ostensibly working and being paid in India but resident and working in Melbourne.    Brexiteers are going to be sorely disappointed, they being used as nothing more than 'useful idiots' to 'get brexit done'  for the big boyz to exploit.

Agreed. The new points system is actually likely to be far worse, in terms of immigration, for middle-class professionals than was being part of the EU. Although we certainly had plenty of professional EU migrants, the disparity between what a professional can earn/quality of life in the UK vs much of Europe is not that great, and has lessened significantly over recent years (witness the many Polish migrants returning home for similar pay, cheaper houses, better quality of life) - so moving to the UK had relatively limited appeal. The new system allows anyone, from anywhere in the world (which still includes the EU) to come in and work for an employer if they satisfy fairly low-bar points and salary requirements. For IT, in particular, "going rate" (above salary floor) salary requirements and the need to advertise a position locally to prove a "need" have both been nixed, because *all* IT related professions have been deemed "in demand". This will open the floodgates to immigrants from parts of the world where salary disparities are still very high (Asia, in particular, of course). You could argue that middle class professionals are about to find out what it has been like for the trades/working class over the past decade of EU migration. As far as I can tell, this is entirely driven by the desire of business to get cheaper workers.

Edited by mattyboy1973
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Agreed. The new points system is actually likely to be far worse, in terms of immigration, for middle-class professionals than was being part of the EU. Although we certainly had plenty of professional EU migrants, the disparity between what a professional can earn/quality of life in the UK vs much of Europe is not that great, and has lessened significantly over recent years (witness the many Polish migrants returning home for similar pay, cheaper houses, better quality of life) - so moving to the UK had relatively limited appeal. The new system allows anyone, from anywhere in the world (which still includes the EU) to come in and work for an employer if they satisfy fairly low-bar points and salary requirements. For IT, in particular, "going rate" (above salary floor) salary requirements and the need to advertise a position locally to prove a "need" have both been nixed, because *all* IT related professions have been deemed "in demand". This will open the floodgates to immigrants from parts of the world where salary disparities are still very high (Asia, in particular, of course). You could argue that middle class professionals are about to find out what it has been like for the trades/working class over the past decade of EU migration. As far as I can tell, this is entirely driven by the desire of business to get cheaper workers.

I think people who expect an Australian style system to limit immigration probably can't picture how many qualified people there are in developing nations. They probably also haven't realised that Australia has shedloads of immigration.

I live in Turkey and work as a consultant for Turks wishing to move to the UK. Language skills are a problem but there are still hundreds of thousands of graduates being churned out every year (and MBAs, chartered engineers etc.) and they will happily work for relatively little money in the UK because the lira is worthless. 

So yes, much more competition for middle class professional roles, but I remember in that first influx of Polish workers there were many teachers, engineers etc. working in unskilled jobs because it was still financially worthwhile relative to their earnings back home. I suspect we will see the same with our new global immigrants once they have their foot in the door. 

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I remember in that first influx of Polish workers there were many teachers, engineers etc. working in unskilled jobs because it was still financially worthwhile relative to their earnings back home.

I remember that time too. I also remember thinking that it sounded like BS when anyone told me that story. 

Teacher I could believe, but why would a doctor or engineer find it advantageous to give up their professional career to clean toilets for £5 per hour in London than remain in their respected and well paid position in their home country?

What sounded more likely to me is that they had an engineering degree, or some doctor-like qualification, such as psychology or physiotherapy, but had no industry experience. In this case, moving to do a mundane job in London is no big sacrifice and probably better (financially and for their personal development) than doing the same job in their home country.  

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I remember that time too. I also remember thinking that it sounded like BS when anyone told me that story. 

Teacher I could believe, but why would a doctor or engineer find it advantageous to give up their professional career to clean toilets for £5 per hour in London than remain in their respected and well paid position in their home country?

What sounded more likely to me is that they had an engineering degree, or some doctor-like qualification, such as psychology or physiotherapy, but had no industry experience. In this case, moving to do a mundane job in London is no big sacrifice and probably better (financially and for their personal development) than doing the same job in their home country.  

because London is exciting sexy and strange

abseiling-orbit-london-urban-adventure

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No, immigration did have a large part to play in Brexit. The problem though is that some people (mostly those complaining about Brexit) seem to think they've got a legitimate point in pointing out that it isn't a silver bullet to deal with the immigration problem. We know that the fundamental cause of this vastly irresponsible rapid immigration-driven population growth is the government, and they've been using the EU as a tool to further that. Therefore removing access to one of the tools is a step in dealing with the problem, even if it's not the only one or even the biggest, and knowing that the same irresponsible short-termist clowns who care little about the damage they do will try to find another avenue to supply their addiction.

Immigration is an easy way for the government to increase GDP. Everybody who comes to a country (aside from the very poorest and lowest) will need to pay for a place to live, buy food, pay for transportation and have some fun. The net immigration rate was running at about 0.5% of the population per year - that is an immediate good boost to GDP statistics for the government regardless of the actual economic reality.

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Immigration is an easy way for the government to increase GDP. Everybody who comes to a country (aside from the very poorest and lowest) will need to pay for a place to live, buy food, pay for transportation and have some fun. The net immigration rate was running at about 0.5% of the population per year - that is an immediate good boost to GDP statistics for the government regardless of the actual economic reality.

Yes, that's why it looks so appealing to them, and many of them don't even understand why the issues are issues - it's not something they give a damn about.

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You only need to read the posts here or in the press to see that what mostly vexes brexiters are low wage, benefit claiming migrants or indeed vagrants in London. It sounds from what you say as though the oz system would stop that and they will be satisfied.

 

That is what they want you to think.

 

 

It said while the full scale of underpayment is hard to estimate, the Fair Work Ombudsman had found 60% of 7-Eleven stores underpaid their staff and an audit of the harvest trail found serious underpayment at 130 of 836 businesses.

Contrary to perceptions of a high-skilled migration program, the paper noted that low-skilled migrants make up an increasing proportion of temporary visa holders.

Of 1 million temporary migrants, 450,000 have student visas, and 150,000 have working holiday visas.

“Of those temporary visa holders who do work, most (59%) are in low-skill occupations. Of those with student and working holiday visas who work, even more (about 75%) are in low-skill occupations, primarily labourers and personal and community service.”

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/30/low-skill-migration-may-contribute-to-poor-pay-growth-at-bottom-end-of-labour-market-report

 

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Of 1 million temporary migrants, 450,000 have student visas, and 150,000 have working holiday visas.

 

 

Difficult to know what to make of that, the majority of the student visa holders will be paying £26k per year to study in the UK and contributing typ another £25k in rent, money spent in the economy etc. They are allowed to work a limited amount, i cannot remember the exact figure but around 10 hours a week i think. I had a south korean PhD student whose company paid the £26k per year, he worked in (i think) Lidls, used to bring in donuts they were chucking out. He was happy for the extra money and enjoyed meeting british people. After his PhD he went back to the job waiting for him in Seul.  Sounds like a massive win-win to the UK in this scenario. The working holiday visa are for ozzies or canadians etc. British students do the same kind of work on their gap years there.

Nothing here says that we  are going to expand massively visas for Big issue sellers and their large families.

Edited by debtlessmanc
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Nothing here says that we  are going to expand massively visas for Big issue sellers and their large families.

For a huge swath of white-collar jobs, immigration will become very much easier after Jan 1. IT is my profession, and that entire field has been designated as "in demand", which means only the base salary cap (~£25k) applies, and potential employers do not need to advertise positions locally before hiring from abroad. We are no longer that attractive as a destination for people already in the EU, with weaker £, poor jobs market, potential Brexit effects etc. We are still very attractive to migrants from the developing world, many of whom will tick enough boxes to get a visa, and be more than happy to work for the minimum required salary and live 8 to a house if that is what is required. I am not anti-immigration at all, and very much pro EU, but I do think people are going to get a bit of a shock. IT wages have been stagnating for years (perhaps more than a decade), already due in some part to offshoring, onshoring via body-shop companies etc. and this will just continue now at an even faster rate. Good for business, bad for workers. For IT, see also Accountants.

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All I know is Aussies actually living and working in Sydney and other areas with massive inward migration are often vocal about the negatives. I voted remain but my blind spot was sitting in the London bubble and thinking everyone loved having polski sklep on every second corner. I pay attention to regional discontent more now.

Aus govt has created a pyramid that requires it to suck in more and more foreign workers (as has Canada) and they can’t turn off the taps without risking collapse. 

Copying their system will defer our problems, not solve them. It’s a workaround, not a fix. They have a reputation of being hardcore on overstayers, we’re seen as a pushover. 

I don’t trust this government not to bungle this as it has bungled every other major issue during power. 

 

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For a huge swath of white-collar jobs, immigration will become very much easier after Jan 1. IT is my profession, and that entire field has been designated as "in demand", which means only the base salary cap (~£25k) applies, and potential employers do not need to advertise positions locally before hiring from abroad. We are no longer that attractive as a destination for people already in the EU, with weaker £, poor jobs market, potential Brexit effects etc. We are still very attractive to migrants from the developing world, many of whom will tick enough boxes to get a visa, and be more than happy to work for the minimum required salary and live 8 to a house if that is what is required. I am not anti-immigration at all, and very much pro EU, but I do think people are going to get a bit of a shock. IT wages have been stagnating for years (perhaps more than a decade), already due in some part to offshoring, onshoring via body-shop companies etc. and this will just continue now at an even faster rate. Good for business, bad for workers. For IT, see also Accountants.

You forgot to mention that the govt has changed the student visa, if they get a job paying at that level they get to stay anyway.

 

https://www.kaplanpathways.com/about/news/graduate-route-visa-uk-work-visas-for-international-students-have-been-extended-to-2-years/

 

This will be the primary root i suspect, afterall if they have done a 4 year course they have paid £200k into the economy before they start working. Youi have to admit it is a great business model.

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All I know is Aussies actually living and working in Sydney and other areas with massive inward migration are often vocal about the negatives. I voted remain but my blind spot was sitting in the London bubble and thinking everyone loved having polski sklep on every second corner. I pay attention to regional discontent more now.

Aus govt has created a pyramid that requires it to suck in more and more foreign workers (as has Canada) and they can’t turn off the taps without risking collapse. 

Copying their system will defer our problems, not solve them. It’s a workaround, not a fix. They have a reputation of being hardcore on overstayers, we’re seen as a pushover. 

I don’t trust this government not to bungle this as it has bungled every other major issue during power. 

 

The funny thing is that the Polish were already starting to leave before Brexit, because conditions have got so much better in Poland. You could easily imagine a sort of levelling up within the EU, where an equilibrium of sorts is reached, and no one country is drawing in a particularly large share of migrants. We were moving in that direction already. Now we are open to the whole world, that sort of levelling up seems improbable in any sort of reasonable timeframe.

I agree with everything you have written re: Aus. I lived there for 10 years. What they have spawned is a pyramid/Ponzi scheme exactly, where they need ever more migrants to generate the tax base, requiring ever more as these migrants start to pull their pensions. The whole idea of GDP for GDPs sake is so retarded, it is hard to know where to begin. The fact that alsmot every government in the world uses this as the yardstick for "success" is a real problem. Per-capita GDP, or some useful quality of life index, would be far more useful. Sydney went, in my time there, from a relatively affordable, fun place to live to a totally unaffordable, grid-locked city that we couldn't wait to leave. Not all the fault of immigrants, of course (mostly awful housing policy), but the ever increasing population doesn't help (yes, aware I was a immigrant too).

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This will be the primary root i suspect, afterall if they have done a 4 year course they have paid £200k into the economy before they start working. Youi have to admit it is a great business model.

Certainly it will be one route. I have no doubt there are thousands of body-shopping IT consultancies just waiting to bring people in as well. The real issue at the moment is that the IT jobs market is already in the toilet (Covid, Brexit, IR35), and this could be a hammer blow. 

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The funny thing is that the Polish were already starting to leave before Brexit, because conditions have got so much better in Poland. You could easily imagine a sort of levelling up within the EU, where an equilibrium of sorts is reached, and no one country is drawing in a particularly large share of migrants. We were moving in that direction already. Now we are open to the whole world, that sort of levelling up seems improbable in any sort of reasonable timeframe.

I agree with everything you have written re: Aus. I lived there for 10 years. What they have spawned is a pyramid/Ponzi scheme exactly, where they need ever more migrants to generate the tax base, requiring ever more as these migrants start to pull their pensions. The whole idea of GDP for GDPs sake is so retarded, it is hard to know where to begin. The fact that alsmot every government in the world uses this as the yardstick for "success" is a real problem. Per-capita GDP, or some useful quality of life index, would be far more useful. Sydney went, in my time there, from a relatively affordable, fun place to live to a totally unaffordable, grid-locked city that we couldn't wait to leave. Not all the fault of immigrants, of course (mostly awful housing policy), but the ever increasing population doesn't help (yes, aware I was a immigrant too).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Less-More-Degrowth-Will-World/dp/1785152491

It’s time for degrowth. 

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So Tony Blair destroyed Britain's position in the EU for his own ends?

Blair was also the middle east peace envoy - after being a large part of destabilising the ME.

What Tone says he wants and how he goes about to active are very different things.

Commentators saying that hes Labour's most successful Labour PM ever are not looking at the bigger picture. Blairs term has has probably destroyed the Labour party, without achieving much of notice, beyond spendign the UK into bankruptcy and planting the seeds to the UKS exit from Europe.

IM sure when the historians have a proper look, ignore the nicey nicey smile, emote stuff, they'll find Tonester to be 2nd worse worse Labour after Brown.

 

 

 

 

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Blair was also the middle east peace envoy - after being a large part of destabilising the ME.

 

 

The end goal was Empire 2.0

G4s would play the part of East India company, they just never had the USA or China on-side

Crashing  the ME meant they needed financial assistance which the UK would provide in exchange for governing 

So the £2T spent was wasted

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Certainly it will be one route. I have no doubt there are thousands of body-shopping IT consultancies just waiting to bring people in as well. The real issue at the moment is that the IT jobs market is already in the toilet (Covid, Brexit, IR35), and this could be a hammer blow. 

IT is too broad, as it covers the overpaid sectors such as support n administration , which have been decimated by moving stuff to the cloud.

The big step change in 'IT' is the continued reduction in FinSec employment, taking large skills out of the nainly London/SE job market.

Ir35 is a funny in one. Long term itll improve job market as large parts of contracting become unviable as the contractor can no longer put travel n accomidation thru the books. However a lot of these were just computer admins.

The demand for developers I.e people who create software based products is still very hot as every org realises that the future is mainly software.

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latest settlement stats

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/eu-settlement-scheme-statistics

 

up to 4.5M now or 4.9M with irish citizens.

My guess us that it will hit 6M at least by June. This also implies that the UK real population is substantially more than believed and hence GDP per capita lower

I think Tesco estimate the pop around 80 million.

 

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The real issue at the moment is that the IT jobs market is already in the toilet (Covid, Brexit, IR35), and this could be a hammer blow. 

Thats not what my Email and LinkedIn inbox says..

 

 

The demand for developers I.e people who create software based products is still very hot as every org realises that the future is mainly software.

Exactly IT is an oversimplification.. Software and Platforms are a whole different ball game..

Edited by Money Frugality
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