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Mass changes to UK immigration requirements


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Anyway, thank you, you have finally given an example I asked for. One that happened over 20 years ago although he didn't go back for another 9 years.

 

You are welcome.  I think this example shows

a) that people can lie and get asylum and be safe unless they are really stupid

b) when people lie it is not reported much (the Telegraph mentioned two people no one even knows what happened to one of them)

c) it is a lot of effort to punish people who lie even when the lie is really blatant. So it is unlikely for it be caught.

I can't see how people can be caught without flight carriers having access to databases of people who have got asylum and getting money for reporting this.  Which I would guess would be illegal and not good PR for them.

 

 

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That is only a commentary on one case over 20 years ago though. Two decades is a long time.

I don't see why one case chosen by the Telegraph should mean the BBC should have come across it. 

The BBC has a bigger budget than the Telegraph.  This is also an important case, there are people who believe it is not possible to fraudulently claim asylum, this proves it is possible.  Considering that in this case the "refugee"'s wife was really incompetent how many more competent people are out there?

(He was only caught because his wife told the British consulate in Albania

"She was interviewed on 14 September 2007 and disclosed the appellant's true date of birth and that he was born in Shkoder, Albania.

"

)

 

I think you can't edit until you have more posts sorry I can't help more.

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The BBC has a bigger budget than the Telegraph.  This is also an important case, there are people who believe it is not possible to fraudulently claim asylum, this proves it is possible.  Considering that in this case the "refugee"'s wife was really incompetent how many more competent people are out there?

(He was only caught because his wife told the British consulate in Albania

"She was interviewed on 14 September 2007 and disclosed the appellant's true date of birth and that he was born in Shkoder, Albania.

"

)

 

I think you can't edit until you have more posts sorry I can't help more.

I think most people understand there are frailties in all systems and that works both ways because many claims first thrown out get through on appeal. The asylum system isn't fit for purpose due to massive cuts from the Tories and it is for this reason many cases don't get heard quickly.

I have yet to see any evidence that the amount of people given refugee status that turns out to be based on fraud is a big issue.

Thanks for advice about editing. It's a pain not being able to .

 

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I have yet to see any evidence that the amount of people given refugee status that turns out to be based on fraud is a big issue.

 

 

Who would investigate that?  The  Tory press don't have the money, the BBC certainly won't. I don't think the police would without political pressure.  Considering that you only get caught if your wife informs on you by mistake.  I would guess very few people are caught.

We now know that this person was a crook but how would anyone have found him out without his wife's mistake?  Without going to Kosovo and trying to find he came from there?  Not that easy really.

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You are welcome.  I think this example shows

a) that people can lie and get asylum and be safe unless they are really stupid

b) when people lie it is not reported much (the Telegraph mentioned two people no one even knows what happened to one of them)

c) it is a lot of effort to punish people who lie even when the lie is really blatant. So it is unlikely for it be caught.

I can't see how people can be caught without flight carriers having access to databases of people who have got asylum and getting money for reporting this.  Which I would guess would be illegal and not good PR for them.

 

 

I would think the system has tightened up somewhat in the last two decades especially given the hostile environment but as I've previously stated it isn't fit for purpose regarding resources and manpower.

For a more robust system they need to fund it properly.

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Who would investigate that?  The  Tory press don't have the money, the BBC certainly won't. I don't think the police would without political pressure.  Considering that you only get caught if your wife informs on you by mistake.  I would guess very few people are caught.

We now know that this person was a crook but how would anyone have found him out without his wife's mistake?  Without going to Kosovo and trying to find he came from there?  Not that easy really.

I do not know what checks they now complete to verify application information but with technology it's probably a lot easier to check out stories. Again, without evidence we do not know but as it is the cases that unfold are statistically small.

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I would think the system has tightened up somewhat in the last two decades especially given the hostile environment but as I've previously stated it isn't fit for purpose regarding resources and manpower.

For a more robust system they need to fund it properly.

I would start by making less generous to be honest.  Asylum should only last for as long as the danger does.

If the country gets safer and you are not paying your way or have broken the law you should have to go back.

This seems hard but it would mean that more genuine people can come here. 

I also wouldn't let people like Al Qatada here - no one who is a threat to us should get asylum.  There are some clear cases in  history when that went wrong.

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I would start by making less generous to be honest.  Asylum should only last for as long as the danger does.

If the country gets safer and you are not paying your way or have broken the law you should have to go back.

This seems hard but it would mean that more genuine people can come here. 

I also wouldn't let people like Al Qatada here - no one who is a threat to us should get asylum.  There are some clear cases in  history when that went wrong.

In what way is it generous?

To determine whether someone will still be in danger would require ongoing monitoring of every case in the country for ever on a rolling basis. Who is going to fund that? The system can't even cope with the workload as it is.

Should someone who lets their MOT lapse be deported or someone who has worked for 20 years paying taxes, having a family, bought a house who gets made redundant and then draws benefits also be deported? Would you really separate fathers from their British born children? What impact would that have on British born child citizens and society in the long run?

As we haven't established beyond one case from 20 years ago the scale of any problem if indeed there is how can we determine that more genuine people would come here?

Al Qatada doesn't appear to have any previous to suggest he would become a threat after he came here but he got deported in the end anyway didn't he?

I do know that there is a long list of Jihadist threats to our security that can't even visit the UK let alone seek asylum here. What are these clear cases in history that you base this on?

My thoughts are that this is a complex subject and there are no simple answers.

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In what way is it generous?

To determine whether someone will still be in danger would require ongoing monitoring of every case in the country for ever on a rolling basis. Who is going to fund that? The system can't even cope with the workload as it is.

Should someone who lets their MOT lapse be deported or someone who has worked for 20 years paying taxes, having a family, bought a house who gets made redundant and then draws benefits also be deported? Would you really separate fathers from their British born children? What impact would that have on British born child citizens and society in the long run?

As we haven't established beyond one case from 20 years ago the scale of any problem if indeed there is how can we determine that more genuine people would come here?

Al Qatada doesn't appear to have any previous to suggest he would become a threat after he came here but he got deported in the end anyway didn't he?

I do know that there is a long list of Jihadist threats to our security that can't even visit the UK let alone seek asylum here. What are these clear cases in history that you base this on?

My thoughts are that this is a complex subject and there are no simple answers.

It is a complex subject.  I should have said serious crime

Abu Qatada was obviously undesirable before he got leave to remain.

"

Around 1994, Abu Qatada started up and was editor-in-Chief of a weekly magazine, Usrat al-Ansar, a Groupe Islamique Armé (GIA) propaganda outlet.[24] Abu Qatada provided the intellectual and ideological support for the journal,[25] which became "a trusted source of news and information about the GIA for Islamists around the world."[26]

Abu Qatada was granted leave to remain to 30 June 1998. On 8 May 1998, he applied for indefinite leave to remain. This application had not been determined before Abu Qatada’s arrest on 23 October 2002. On that date British authorities detained him under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001.[27]"

The GIA were a terrorist organization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Qatada#Convictions_in_Jordan_and_retrial_acquittals

"The group desired to create "an atmosphere of general insecurity"[1] and employed kidnapping, assassination, and bombings, including car bombs and targeted not only security forces but civilians. Between 1992 and 1998,

"

 

I would say that he was an obvious example of someone who should not have been allowed to stay in the UK.Wouldn't you?

 

 

 

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It is a complex subject.  I should have said serious crime

Abu Qatada was obviously undesirable before he got leave to remain.

"

Around 1994, Abu Qatada started up and was editor-in-Chief of a weekly magazine, Usrat al-Ansar, a Groupe Islamique Armé (GIA) propaganda outlet.[24] Abu Qatada provided the intellectual and ideological support for the journal,[25] which became "a trusted source of news and information about the GIA for Islamists around the world."[26]

Abu Qatada was granted leave to remain to 30 June 1998. On 8 May 1998, he applied for indefinite leave to remain. This application had not been determined before Abu Qatada’s arrest on 23 October 2002. On that date British authorities detained him under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001.[27]"

The GIA were a terrorist organization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Qatada#Convictions_in_Jordan_and_retrial_acquittals

"The group desired to create "an atmosphere of general insecurity"[1] and employed kidnapping, assassination, and bombings, including car bombs and targeted not only security forces but civilians. Between 1992 and 1998,

"

 

I would say that he was an obvious example of someone who should not have been allowed to stay in the UK.Wouldn't you?

 

 

 

The preceding paragraph from Wikipedia states that he was granted Asylum in 1994.

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On 1/5/2021 at 4:16 PM, iamnumerate said:

The BBC has a bigger budget than the Telegraph.  

The important figure is its budget for journalism, not the overall budget. Even comparing budgets for news isn't fair as the Telegraph doesn't need cameramen, sound recordists and studios. You might be surprised how relatively few journalists the BBC actually relies on. 

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On 1/5/2021 at 4:41 PM, iamnumerate said:

If the country gets safer and you are not paying your way or have broken the law you should have to go back.

Very often, when the other country gets safer, people do go back. After all, it's where family may be. But it's not always the case as safer may not be safe, and safer may not be the same as someone feeling safe. For example, Jerry Springer's parents always kept bags packed in the USA as they didn't trust anyone after the holocaust. It wasn't so different for my wife's grandmother with similar history.

On 1/5/2021 at 4:41 PM, iamnumerate said:

 

 

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Maybe the UK needs to adopt a more European style of migrants/non natives?

Brexit leaves Spain's Costa Brits facing dilemmas

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55617849

To be able to live in Spain now, you will need to show proof that you're earning, either through having a contract with a Spanish company, or by proving that you have at least £2,000 (€2,223; $2,705) a month coming into your account.

For a family, it will be much more. You will need to show that you have an extra £500 a month for each member of the family. For example, a family of four will need to prove they earn a yearly salary of at least £42,000.

Theres no in-work bennies, HB, child benefit  free school meals etc etc.

Id be happy to move rapidly to this.

This is very relevant as Spain is by far n away the EU country with the most Brits resident.

All the UK ahs to do is implement that. No need to actively create a new policy, just say we are implementing a migrant/benefit policy that follows the EU norm - this will keep the Europhiles happy.

And, poof!, ~80% of EU and non EU 'visitors' disappear.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, spyguy said:

Maybe the UK needs to adopt a more European style of migrants/non natives?

Brexit leaves Spain's Costa Brits facing dilemmas

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55617849

To be able to live in Spain now, you will need to show proof that you're earning, either through having a contract with a Spanish company, or by proving that you have at least £2,000 (€2,223; $2,705) a month coming into your account.

For a family, it will be much more. You will need to show that you have an extra £500 a month for each member of the family. For example, a family of four will need to prove they earn a yearly salary of at least £42,000.

Theres no in-work bennies, HB, child benefit  free school meals etc etc.

Id be happy to move rapidly to this.

This is very relevant as Spain is by far n away the EU country with the most Brits resident.

All the UK ahs to do is implement that. No need to actively create a new policy, just say we are implementing a migrant/benefit policy that follows the EU norm - this will keep the Europhiles happy.

And, poof!, ~80% of EU and non EU 'visitors' disappear.

 

 

 

Sounds great to me. To be honest I would happier with less generous and no free housing.

I wonder if Brits will be able to get round this by "studying" for years.  I am pretty sure that South Americans I knew who moved to Spain didn't earn anything like that amount but still were allowed to stay.

Edited by iamnumerate
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3 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

Sounds great to me. To be honest I would happier with less generous and no free housing.

Foreign national do not, in general, get free housing. 

Not many will be willing to come to the UK to seek asylum where they will not normally have money or the right to work if they understand that this is how the system works. 

Quote

 

 

6 hours ago, spyguy said:

Maybe the UK needs to adopt a more European style of migrants/non natives?

It already does, and has for decades. 

Quote

Brexit leaves Spain's Costa Brits facing dilemmas

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55617849

To be able to live in Spain now, you will need to show proof that you're earning, either through having a contract with a Spanish company, or by proving that you have at least £2,000 (€2,223; $2,705) a month coming into your account.

The article appears to be misleading. This is for people who do not have employment. 

Quote

All the UK ahs to do is implement that. No need to actively create a new policy,

No, it already exists. 

Quote

just say we are implementing a migrant/benefit policy that follows the EU norm

Er, no. That's a non sequiter.

Quote

 

 

Quote

And, poof!, ~80% of EU and non EU 'visitors' disappear.

I don't think you really understand how it works. Most EU nationals here are here to work. 

We're potentially about to get a lot of retired people moving back from Spain, just as the Spanish nurses move back. Oops. 

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37 minutes ago, NobodyInParticular said:

Foreign national do not, in general, get free housing. 

Not many will be willing to come to the UK to seek asylum where they will not normally have money or the right to work if they understand that this is how the system works. 

Sorry but a friend came from Italy and because he had young children and was on a low wage he got his rent paid by tax credits.  This was a couple of years ago, that seems like free to me.

However if EU citizens could still get tax credits in many cases the universal credit would be greater than their rent.

(Check https://www.entitledto.co.uk/benefits-calculator)

That is a lot more than I believe Brits could have got pre 2020 in other EU states.

 

 

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11 hours ago, NobodyInParticular said:

Foreign national do not, in general, get free housing. 

 

EUers are entitled to the same benefits as UK, thats the EU laws.

Thats why theres ~7m-8m EUers living in the the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-to-stop-migrants-claiming-housing-benefit

New migrant jobseekers from the European Economic Area (EEA) will no longer be able to get Housing Benefit from April 2014.

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Or ....

https://africanculture.blog/2016/07/22/mapping-londons-somali-community-2016-discourses-dilemmas-demographics/

Over 125,000 Somalis reside in the UK with strong London bases in BromleyEalingWoolwichBow and Stepney GreenEdgware RoadCamden and Lambeth. Current sources suggest that Cardiff has the highest number of people of Somali heritage anywhere in the UK outside of London. Bristol too.

“Since the late 1990s, the Somali population of the UK has grown rapidly. There are now estimated to be between 95,000 and 250,000 Somalis living in the UK, with around 70,000 in London (International Organisation for Migration 2006), making it one of the largest Somali communities in Europe.

Could you explain how Somails, who pretty much are perma unemployed, manage to live in some of the UKs most expensive areas?

Cross into EU as these tend to be Dutch-Somali, Swiss-Somali etc.

Since late 90s?? What happpened then?

 

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11 minutes ago, spyguy said:

EUers are entitled to the same benefits as UK, thats the EU laws.

I thought we were talking about asylum seekers. For EU citizens, it's only true in EU law after qualifying periods. 

Quote

Thats why theres ~7m-8m EUers living in the the UK.

No, they haven't come for 'free housing', have they, as they wouldn't get it. They've almost entirely come to work, and are less likely to be claiming benefits. 

Quote

 

 

Edited by NobodyInParticular
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3 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Or ....

https://africanculture.blog/2016/07/22/mapping-londons-somali-community-2016-discourses-dilemmas-demographics/

Over 125,000 Somalis reside in the UK with strong London bases in BromleyEalingWoolwichBow and Stepney GreenEdgware RoadCamden and Lambeth. Current sources suggest that Cardiff has the highest number of people of Somali heritage anywhere in the UK outside of London. Bristol too.

“Since the late 1990s, the Somali population of the UK has grown rapidly. There are now estimated to be between 95,000 and 250,000 Somalis living in the UK, with around 70,000 in London (International Organisation for Migration 2006), making it one of the largest Somali communities in Europe.

Could you explain how Somails, who pretty much are perma unemployed, manage to live in some of the UKs most expensive areas?

Cross into EU as these tend to be Dutch-Somali, Swiss-Somali etc.

Since late 90s?? What happpened then?

 

Are you ignorant of world history? 

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11 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

Sorry but a friend came from Italy and because he had young children and was on a low wage he got his rent paid by tax credits.

I doubt that, as tax credits finybdi that. Maybe you mean housing benefit (which won't pay all of it)? Maybe you are confused. 

11 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

This was a couple of years ago, that seems like free to me.

No. 

11 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

However if EU citizens could still get tax credits in many cases the universal credit would be greater than their rent.

But that has to cover more than rent, doesn't it. 

11 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

(Check https://www.entitledto.co.uk/benefits-calculator)

That is a lot more than I believe Brits could have got pre 2020 in other EU states.

Evidence for that assertion? 

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1 minute ago, NobodyInParticular said:

I doubt that, as tax credits finybdi that. Maybe you mean housing benefit (which won't pay all of it)? Maybe you are confused. 

No. 

But that has to cover more than rent, doesn't it. 

 

He said that his rent was being paid. Getting entitled to shows that it would have been, seems like free to me.

Obviously you have a different definition

9 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Or ....

https://africanculture.blog/2016/07/22/mapping-londons-somali-community-2016-discourses-dilemmas-demographics/

Over 125,000 Somalis reside in the UK with strong London bases in BromleyEalingWoolwichBow and Stepney GreenEdgware RoadCamden and Lambeth. Current sources suggest that Cardiff has the highest number of people of Somali heritage anywhere in the UK outside of London. Bristol too.

“Since the late 1990s, the Somali population of the UK has grown rapidly. There are now estimated to be between 95,000 and 250,000 Somalis living in the UK, with around 70,000 in London (International Organisation for Migration 2006), making it one of the largest Somali communities in Europe.

Could you explain how Somails, who pretty much are perma unemployed, manage to live in some of the UKs most expensive areas?

Cross into EU as these tend to be Dutch-Somali, Swiss-Somali etc.

Since late 90s?? What happpened then?

 

Look at this

https://www.thesociologicalreview.com/brexit-birmingham-and-belonging-anxieties-about-home-among-secondary-migrant-somali-families/

 

And I quote

" For others, this pragmatism took the form of being worried about access to welfare including free healthcare and income support. There was some anxiety also about the levels of prejudice and discrimination that might encounter if they were to return to their countries of citizenship:"

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17 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Or ....

https://africanculture.blog/2016/07/22/mapping-londons-somali-community-2016-discourses-dilemmas-demographics/

Over 125,000 Somalis reside in the UK with strong London bases in BromleyEalingWoolwichBow and Stepney GreenEdgware RoadCamden and Lambeth. Current sources suggest that Cardiff has the highest number of people of Somali heritage anywhere in the UK outside of London. Bristol too.

“Since the late 1990s, the Somali population of the UK has grown rapidly. There are now estimated to be between 95,000 and 250,000 Somalis living in the UK, with around 70,000 in London (International Organisation for Migration 2006), making it one of the largest Somali communities in Europe.

Could you explain how Somails, who pretty much are perma unemployed, manage to live in some of the UKs most expensive areas?

As asylum seekers, they are not allowed to work, hence being unemployed. As asylum seekers we owe an obligation under international law to not let them starve. 

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