BoE investigates 'terrifying' rise in borrowing to fund new car purchases

[hotblack42]

On 18/02/2021 at 19:51, FTB-house-hunter said:

I was wondering what has happened to all the 2nd hand cars as people give them back when finance deals are up etc.... guess i have just found out.  No wonder there hasn't been a big crash in prices.  Took a play from the Debeers play book it seems.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-56104281

One of the most perverse allocation of resources I've ever seen.  And it won't work, 50,000 won't restrict supply enough and meanwhile someone is going to get a major hit on this depreciation.  If the firms doing this try to sell/divest without revealing this liability or go bankrupt, the people who instigated this storage should go to prison, irrespective of where they work or live when prosecuted.
There's room for 1200 houses + five 10 acre parks on that site.  Its a scandal.

[dpg50000]

12 minutes ago, hotblack42 said:

One of the most perverse allocation of resources I've ever seen.  And it won't work, 50,000 won't restrict supply enough and meanwhile someone is going to get a major hit on this depreciation.  If the firms doing this try to sell/divest without revealing this liability or go bankrupt, the people who instigated this storage should go to prison, irrespective of where they work or live when prosecuted.
There's room for 1200 houses + five 10 acre parks on that site.  Its a scandal.

Apologies for the Daily Fail link, but there are thousands of new cars in airfields up and down the country. One example - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8416931/Thousands-unwanted-new-used-motors-stored-airfield-coronavirus-slump-hits-economy.html

[skinnylattej]

1 hour ago, dpg50000 said:

Apologies for the Daily Fail link, but there are thousands of new cars in airfields up and down the country. One example - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8416931/Thousands-unwanted-new-used-motors-stored-airfield-coronavirus-slump-hits-economy.html

They are not unwanted, just over-priced.

Knock 40% off, and they will sell like hot cakes.

[TheCountOfNowhere]

1 hour ago, dpg50000 said:

Apologies for the Daily Fail link, but there are thousands of new cars in airfields up and down the country. One example - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8416931/Thousands-unwanted-new-used-motors-stored-airfield-coronavirus-slump-hits-economy.html

Cars, like houses, are being over priced due to deliberate supply restrictions and easy finance.

Sick sick country

[markyh]

3 hours ago, hotblack42 said:

One of the most perverse allocation of resources I've ever seen.  And it won't work, 50,000 won't restrict supply enough and meanwhile someone is going to get a major hit on this depreciation.  If the firms doing this try to sell/divest without revealing this liability or go bankrupt, the people who instigated this storage should go to prison, irrespective of where they work or live when prosecuted.
There's room for 1200 houses + five 10 acre parks on that site.  Its a scandal.

Ahhhh, the DeBeers diamond sales model, have a product as common as muck but control 90% of the market and create artificial scarcity to keep prices high. 

[markyh]

On 28/02/2021 at 01:22, Confusion of VIs said:

You could get yourself an VW ID3, the discounts on these are getting bigger day by day as VW needs to sell these by the shedload to avoid either paying huge penalty fines or having to buy even more carbon credits off Tesla.

In the face of lower than expected orders they have tried the usual route of stuffing their dealerships with "demonstrators" which can immediately be sold as used. However, this avenue has now reached steady state and they have been forced to heavily discount new cars.  

Sales have gone from topping the German EV sales charts in October to struggling to stay in the top 10. This despite advertised discounts now topping £7,500. I suspect you could get lot more off with a bit of haggling over a "used" one.  

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postcode=CR0 5DR&radius=1500&make=VOLKSWAGEN&model=ID.3&include-delivery-option=on   

The ID3 is not a bad car but VW are probably facing the same problems as other legacy manufacturers  

1. It's not a Tesla

2. Their dealers don't really want to sell you one because they will make far less from the ongoing maintenance work and they rely on this to turn a profit.

 

Don’t worry, @Peter Hunwill be along soon to tell us how VW are making 2000 ID3 a day no one is buying, because it ain’t a Tesla. 
 

Exactly what I said would happen, they desperately need to sell to avoid EU fines, especially now the UK is not in EU figures. But the car is so software bugged (because making an EV is so simple, right?) no one wants the hassle. 

[morty]

On 28/02/2021 at 01:22, Confusion of VIs said:

You could get yourself an VW ID3, the discounts on these are getting bigger day by day as VW needs to sell these by the shedload to avoid either paying huge penalty fines or having to buy even more carbon credits off Tesla.

In the face of lower than expected orders they have tried the usual route of stuffing their dealerships with "demonstrators" which can immediately be sold as used. However, this avenue has now reached steady state and they have been forced to heavily discount new cars.  

Sales have gone from topping the German EV sales charts in October to struggling to stay in the top 10. This despite advertised discounts now topping £7,500. I suspect you could get lot more off with a bit of haggling over a "used" one.  

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postcode=CR0 5DR&radius=1500&make=VOLKSWAGEN&model=ID.3&include-delivery-option=on   

The ID3 is not a bad car but VW are probably facing the same problems as other legacy manufacturers  

1. It's not a Tesla

2. Their dealers don't really want to sell you one because they will make far less from the ongoing maintenance work and they rely on this to turn a profit.

 

I wouldn’t mind one but they don’t have a dedicated charging network like Tesla and I don’t like the looks; basically it’s not a Tesla 😂 

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

Cars, like houses, are being over priced due to deliberate supply restrictions and easy finance.

Sick sick country

Most cars are sold at around cost price with profits only made on the expensive  options and spare parts.

Buy the base model and you are probably getting it at less than cost.

The problem is over supply not supply restrictions.

Cause of the problem is that once you have invested a billion or two in the sunk costs involved in  bringing a car to market you have to sell as many as you can. As slowing the line raises the cost per car to completely uneconomic levels.

[Peter Hun]

On 28/02/2021 at 01:22, Confusion of VIs said:

or having to buy even more carbon credits off Tesla.

VW have never bought any EV credits off Tesla.

Tesla are Bitcoin investment fund aren't they?

 

[Peter Hun]

5 minutes ago, morty said:

I wouldn’t mind one but they don’t have a dedicated charging network like Tesla and I don’t like the looks; basically it’s not a Tesla 😂 

Great network, one Tesla charger 40 miles away from me. On the other hand I have a dozen slow chargers on my street.

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, markyh said:

Don’t worry, @Peter Hunwill be along soon to tell us how VW are making 2000 ID3 a day no one is buying, because it ain’t a Tesla. 
 

Exactly what I said would happen, they desperately need to sell to avoid EU fines, especially now the UK is not in EU figures. But the car is so software bugged (because making an EV is so simple, right?) no one wants the hassle. 

 

Tesla Shoved Out Of January German EV Sales Boom By Volkswagen, Smart

 

Volkswagen’s ID.3 sales might have slowed from the hectic pace of December, but the German car still claimed Germany’s top EV sales spot in January, easily dispatching share-market darling Tesla.

Figures released last night from Germany’s Transport Department (KBA) show the Volkswagen brand sold 4,562 EVs in January – comfortably more than double its nearest rival.

EV talisman Tesla TSLA -1%, meanwhile, dropped out of Germany’s leading EV brands list completely, as a rising Volkswagen slammed its EVs down into first and second places in the top five.

While Volkswagen found 4562 EV homes, the second placed smart (now co-owned now by Daimler and Geely) gathered 1833 sales, Renault found 1344, Hyundai 1281 and BMW just 899.

Tesla had just 453 registrations in Germany in January, almost all of which were Model 3s. Compare that to Tesla’s late surge in Germany last year, with 3545 sales in December as its overall production rose 36 percent to 499,550 for a company record.

Nonetheless, it was a tough 2020 in Europe for Tesla, which saw its EV market share fall by 10 percent despite the EV market rising 123 percent overall.

Volkswagen’s dominance of the EV market in Germany is even stronger than the figures suggest, though. As the Volkswagen Group, its brands include Porsche, Audi, Skoda and Seat, which add 2400 more sales to its total to give it 39 percent of the German EV market.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/02/09/tesla-shoved-out-of-january-german-ev-sales-boom-by-volkswagen-smart/

Outselling Tesla 10:1

LoL

[2buyornot2buy]

5 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

Great network, one Tesla charger 40 miles away from me. On the other hand I have a dozen slow chargers on my street.

80 miles to my nearest fast charger. Total 24 fast chargers on an island with 3 million cars. 

On the plus side public chargers are fee in NI. 

[Confusion of VIs]

5 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

VW have never bought any EV credits off Tesla.

Tesla are Bitcoin investment fund aren't they?

 

Its a market doesn't matter who you directly buy off you are helping drive the price if you need the product.

3 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

Great network, one Tesla charger 40 miles away from me. On the other hand I have a dozen slow chargers on my street.

Why would you want or need a local charger?  If you are going on a long trip you wont be stopping 40miles in to top up.

I charge mine on the garden 13Amp socket (wife parks by the charger). Gives more than enough power for normal use and if I going on a long trip i probably leave at least 200m before stopping for a coffee and a 30 minute charge.

[Confusion of VIs]

13 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

 

Tesla Shoved Out Of January German EV Sales Boom By Volkswagen, Smart

 

Volkswagen’s ID.3 sales might have slowed from the hectic pace of December, but the German car still claimed Germany’s top EV sales spot in January, easily dispatching share-market darling Tesla.

Figures released last night from Germany’s Transport Department (KBA) show the Volkswagen brand sold 4,562 EVs in January – comfortably more than double its nearest rival.

EV talisman Tesla TSLA -1%, meanwhile, dropped out of Germany’s leading EV brands list completely, as a rising Volkswagen slammed its EVs down into first and second places in the top five.

While Volkswagen found 4562 EV homes, the second placed smart (now co-owned now by Daimler and Geely) gathered 1833 sales, Renault found 1344, Hyundai 1281 and BMW just 899.

Tesla had just 453 registrations in Germany in January, almost all of which were Model 3s. Compare that to Tesla’s late surge in Germany last year, with 3545 sales in December as its overall production rose 36 percent to 499,550 for a company record.

Nonetheless, it was a tough 2020 in Europe for Tesla, which saw its EV market share fall by 10 percent despite the EV market rising 123 percent overall.

Volkswagen’s dominance of the EV market in Germany is even stronger than the figures suggest, though. As the Volkswagen Group, its brands include Porsche, Audi, Skoda and Seat, which add 2400 more sales to its total to give it 39 percent of the German EV market.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/02/09/tesla-shoved-out-of-january-german-ev-sales-boom-by-volkswagen-smart/

Outselling Tesla 10:1

LoL

Teslas sales are lumpy as they are supply constrained and arrive by ship in  batches of several thousand.  This problem will go away when Tesla Berlin opens later this year.

You would think a journalist would know all this.

Discount on a Tesla Model 3 after being on sale for 2 years £0, discount on new to market ID3 £7,500 and still not selling. 

LOL indeed.

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Confusion of VIs

[Peter Hun]

3 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Its a market doesn't matter who you directly buy off you are helping drive the price if you need the product.

Why would you want or need a local charger?  If you are going on a long trip you wont be stopping 40miles in to top up.

I charge mine on the garden 13Amp socket (wife parks by the charger). Gives more than enough power for normal use and if I going on a long trip i probably leave at least 200m before stopping for a coffee and a 30 minute charge.

Obviously, central London,  I have no garden so I need a local street charger. I did check Tesla's map and the closest charger to me is Dartford, then Maidstone and  the channel tunnel. You would think they'd have chargers at their stores, but apparently not. Along the south coast, a hundred miles between chargers, literally nothing anywhere I've ever been.

[Peter Hun]

2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Teslas sales are lumpy as they are supply constrained and arrive by ship in  batches of several thousand.  This problem will go away when Tesla Berlin opens later this year.

You would think a journalist would know all this.

Discount on a Tesla Model 3 after being on sale for 2 years £0, discount on new to market ID3 £7,500 and still not selling. 

LOL indeed.

 

 

 

You cannot get an Id.3 for 7.5k discount anymore (5k max). But most people would be very happy about it if they could.

Lets see Feb's sales figures, lots of no-sale-success for Tesla.

[2buyornot2buy]

9 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Teslas sales are lumpy as they are supply constrained and arrive by ship in  batches of several thousand.  This problem will go away when Tesla Berlin opens later this year.

You would think a journalist would know all this.

Discount on a Tesla Model 3 after being on sale for 2 years £0, discount on new to market ID3 £7,500 and still not selling. 

LOL indeed.

 

 

 

Sorry are you suggesting the model 3 uk price has remained static since launch?

[longgone]

3 hours ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

Cars, like houses, are being over priced due to deliberate supply restrictions and easy finance.

Sick sick country

yep 

i had a mate years back around 2002 that did contract ground work a job came up doing tarmac in this field somewhere apparently all the manufacturers would order thousands of cars and leave them in fields and drip feed them onto the market.  apparently a few went missing now and again. as they where unregistered. 

apparently had unused e200 mercs from the late 80`s still sat there all in white though no doubt unsellable. 

[longgone]

1 hour ago, markyh said:

Ahhhh, the DeBeers diamond sales model, have a product as common as muck but control 90% of the market and create artificial scarcity to keep prices high. 

you can grow them now 

https://www.queensmith.co.uk/lab-grown-diamonds-uk

[longgone]

25 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

You cannot get an Id.3 for 7.5k discount anymore (5k max). But most people would be very happy about it if they could.

Lets see Feb's sales figures, lots of no-sale-success for Tesla.

https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/volkswagen-id3-electric-hatchback-150kw-life-pro-performance-62kwh-5dr-auto-ps26145-3674362

[Peter Hun]

21 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

Sorry are you suggesting the model 3 uk price has remained static since launch?

There was a recent price drop of up to 9000euros a few weeks back in the EU.

Due to competition not the new factory in Germany.

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, markyh said:

But the car is so software bugged (because making an EV is so simple, right?) no one wants the hassle. 

Update is available on 8th March, it already looks good in the ID.4

[TheCountOfNowhere]

38 minutes ago, longgone said:

yep 

i had a mate years back around 2002 that did contract ground work a job came up doing tarmac in this field somewhere apparently all the manufacturers would order thousands of cars and leave them in fields and drip feed them onto the market.  apparently a few went missing now and again. as they where unregistered. 

apparently had unused e200 mercs from the late 80`s still sat there all in white though no doubt unsellable. 

Yeah, I dopnt buy this manufacturing costs ********.

 

The car industry used to call the UK treasure island.

 

This unlikely people's hero blew the whistle on them:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quentin_Willson

 

In the 1990s, both in print and on television, Willson highlighted the artificially higher prices of new cars in the UK compared to Europe, campaigning for price parity for UK buyers. He is widely credited for drawing attention to uncompetitive pricing by the car makers which prompted the European Commission to take action and use block exemption regulations to force the industry to reduce UK list prices on new passenger cars.^[6]

[TheCountOfNowhere]

UK buyers of cars and houses....biggest mugs in the world.

[Confusion of VIs]

45 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

Sorry are you suggesting the model 3 uk price has remained static since launch?

No but if you want one you pay the current price no discounts or haggling.

The price of Teslas are set at build cost plus a margin, thought to be 25-30%, so are constantly changing. Their ambition is to half production costs before 2030.