BoE investigates 'terrifying' rise in borrowing to fund new car purchases

[Money Frugality]

3 hours ago, zugzwang said:

But then why not get a van? Cheaper to buy and run and at least you get to enjoy a modicum of utility along with your lousy driving experience and parking headaches.

I can agree with the lousy driving experience to an extent, any form of spirited driving and it just feels wrong.. But I have a sports bike so the complete opposite of bent over a tank at speed is relaxing, its not a "fun" car in that regards anyway

[Lagarde's Drift]

3 hours ago, markyh said:

Nope, like my wife, they are all going EV SUV, like the Tesla Model Y , she loves it. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/tesla/model-y/first-drives/tesla-model-y-long-range-2022-uk-first-drive-review

Yes anyone here thinking we humans are returning to sedans are outdated. We're just going from heavy ice SUVs to even heavier EV SUVs. I wonder if EV SUVs might handle slightly better assuming the batteries are slung low which will more than offset the poor basic design.

[markyh]

4 hours ago, Lagarde's Drift said:

Yes anyone here thinking we humans are returning to sedans are outdated. We're just going from heavy ice SUVs to even heavier EV SUVs. I wonder if EV SUVs might handle slightly better assuming the batteries are slung low which will more than offset the poor basic design.

Actually it's pretty solid, does not really lean much in corners and in Tesla roll crash tests they could not get it to fell over on it's side, it just leans to 45 degrees, runs out of energy and gravity of the battery back stops it tipping right over and brings it back on all 4 wheels. 

 

[Saving For a Space Ship]

19 hours ago, Riedquat said:

I've been interested in the idea of conversions for some time (seems like a much better plan than new cars if it's viable), but that link just gives me an error.

 

[Gurgle]

6 hours ago, markyh said:

Actually it's pretty solid, does not really lean much in corners and in Tesla roll crash tests they could not get it to fell over on it's side, it just leans to 45 degrees, runs out of energy and gravity of the battery back stops it tipping right over and brings it back on all 4 wheels. 

 

My experience of Tesla was someone’s Model X. It might be quick but it feels like a cheap VW inside but for BMW/Mercedes money.  Plastic “leather”, cheap scratchy plastic dashboard materials etc.  very underwhelming.  I don’t understand why anyone buys a model S when you can get a Porsche Taycan for the same money

[Lagarde's Drift]

6 hours ago, markyh said:

Actually it's pretty solid, does not really lean much in corners and in Tesla roll crash tests they could not get it to fell over on it's side, it just leans to 45 degrees, runs out of energy and gravity of the battery back stops it tipping right over and brings it back on all 4 wheels. 

 

The weight and air resistance alone makes SUVs stupid for vast majority of normal driving Vs a normal car.  For performance, stiffening the chassis and suspension is how engineers cope with the poor basic design.  In EV SUVs that is probably helped a little by the battery location but the fundamental flaws remain.

When you consider that normal cars have had to get taller themselves to improve crash safety Vs SUVs then the overall impact to the environment becomes that much greater.

And, the Tesla test you describe above sounds horrifying.

 

[longgone]

On 07/04/2022 at 21:28, Saving For a Space Ship said:

Hopefully a lot of cheap conversion kits to reuse ice cars will service those on low incomes, save scrapping all those usable ice car bodies  

Transition One – an ultra-cheap electric car conversion kit is FINALLY here!

https://fullycharged.show/episodes/transition-one-an-ultra-cheap-electric-car-conversion-kit-is-finally-here/efully 

 

I think the conversion is relatively simple all the ecu modules and systems can be coded out so existing ecu's can be used, especially on platform shared stuff the problem is going to be range and battery cost. Stuffing batteries into engine bays or fuel tank spaces is not going to provide a great range. If it was sub 5k and gave a range of 200 miles i would consider it. As long as i keep the old audi engine 😉 

[Saving For a Space Ship]

urban only micro ev affordable recession mobile coming later this year ..

Citroen Ami two-seat electric city car: prices, specs and customisation options

Citroen’s ultra-compact electric quadricycle is available with a variety of customisation options, priced from £7,695

https://www.drivingelectric.com/citroen/ami/40864/citroen-ami-two-seat-electric-city-car-prices-specs-and-customisation-options

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Saving For a Space Ship

[anonguest]

I know I know there are many people who would be grateful to have any sort of car they could privately own/use, but.....

I'd rather have holes drilled in my eyes than drive that. 

I'm reminded of a quote attributed to Thatcher. Something along the lines of "any man who finds himself riding in a bus at the age of 40 is a failure".  I'd say much the same of this little toy.  LOL

But, I guess this creation is yet another example of the new downsized WEF shaped world to come.  😞

Edited May 24, 2022 by anonguest

[hotblack42]

11 hours ago, Saving For a Space Ship said:

Citroen’s ultra-compact electric quadricycle

Um, I don't think we should be quick to condemn this genuine effort at democratisation, but the use cases seem limited.  Fine for moving 2 people A to B, or 1 with shopping, but useless for even a couple + baby, let alone a family.  Consumers, er, consume so regularly want to move bulky, awkwardly shaped objects, not wait in for deliveries every blummin time!

[Saving For a Space Ship]

9 hours ago, anonguest said:

I know I know there are many people who would be grateful to have any sort of car they could privately own/use, but.....

I'd rather have holes drilled in my eyes than drive that. 

I'm reminded of a quote attributed to Thatcher. Something along the lines of "any man who finds himself riding in a bus at the age of 40 is a failure".  I'd say much the same of this little toy.  LOL

But, I guess this creation is yet another example of the new downsized WEF shaped world to come.  😞

safety is an issue in these quadricycles, but given the avg slow speed of city traffic, perhaps less of an issue  

Quote

Long term general traffic speeds in London are measured for central, inner and outer London using GPS-based data for key roads.

Weekday (07:00 to 19:00) speeds from 2008 to 2018 have changed from:

8.7 mph to 7.1 mph in central London

12.5 mph to 11.6 mph in inner London

20.3 mph to 19.3 mph in outer London

A detailed trend chart up to 2016 can be found in Transport for London’s annual Travel in London Report 10, with data up to 2018 due in the forthcoming Travel in London Report 12, which is expected to be published in December 2019. https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2019/19767#:~:text=8.7 mph to 7.1 mph,19.3 mph in outer London

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Saving For a Space Ship

[anonguest]

Having posted something on this car related thread, earlier today, it got me thinking.  So, to take it somewhat back closer to the theme of the thread title.....

Given the almost unbelievable rise in prices of second hand cars observed in the past 18 or so months AND the now evident wider inflationary episode now unfolding, it got me thinking.....

Many have posted about the supposed merits of buying a house with a mortgage and letting inflation help wipe out the debt.  So I was wondering IF others thought the same logic/strategy could be applied to car buying?  IF one believes that central banks talk is all bluster, that they can't raise rates much more than where they are without causing global economic armageddon etc, and thus inflation will de facto be allowed to do its job (as far as the CB'ers are concerned)....Then perhaps buying a nice car with a car loan (fixed rates?) with a relatively long multi year payback plan (e.g. 60 months) could be worthwhile???  BUT it probably would have to be done pretty much now, before loan rates really start to go up and 'price in' the reality of the prolonged inflationary environment?  Since, at the moment, markets are still buying into the CB talk about them doing whatever it takes to get inflation under control, etc.

[Saving For a Space Ship]

Volkswagen settles UK ‘dieselgate’ claims with £193m payout  

Claimants in England and Wales to receive more than £2,100 each after joining legal action against carmaker

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/25/volkswagen-settles-uk-dieselgate-claims-with-193m-payout

[markyh]

9 minutes ago, Saving For a Space Ship said:

Volkswagen settles UK ‘dieselgate’ claims with £193m payout  

Claimants in England and Wales to receive more than £2,100 each after joining legal action against carmaker

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/25/volkswagen-settles-uk-dieselgate-claims-with-193m-payout

Ironically they have probably gained more than that in the 2nd hand value of their "devalued" cheat device VW cars. 

[cbathpc]

On 24/05/2022 at 22:35, anonguest said:

Having posted something on this car related thread, earlier today, it got me thinking.  So, to take it somewhat back closer to the theme of the thread title.....

Given the almost unbelievable rise in prices of second hand cars observed in the past 18 or so months AND the now evident wider inflationary episode now unfolding, it got me thinking.....

Many have posted about the supposed merits of buying a house with a mortgage and letting inflation help wipe out the debt.  So I was wondering IF others thought the same logic/strategy could be applied to car buying?  IF one believes that central banks talk is all bluster, that they can't raise rates much more than where they are without causing global economic armageddon etc, and thus inflation will de facto be allowed to do its job (as far as the CB'ers are concerned)....Then perhaps buying a nice car with a car loan (fixed rates?) with a relatively long multi year payback plan (e.g. 60 months) could be worthwhile???  BUT it probably would have to be done pretty much now, before loan rates really start to go up and 'price in' the reality of the prolonged inflationary environment?  Since, at the moment, markets are still buying into the CB talk about them doing whatever it takes to get inflation under control, etc.

New car supplies are only getting worse, so you're probably right. Reasonable chance you can take out a hefty loan, or even a PCP pay it down for 2/3 years and then sell it back for the same money (although that money might be worth less).

[anonguest]

2 minutes ago, cbathpc said:

New car supplies are only getting worse, so you're probably right. Reasonable chance you can take out a hefty loan, or even a PCP pay it down for 2/3 years and then sell it back for the same money (although that money might be worth less).

It does make you think doesn't it.

The recent price moves in the second hand car market have been jaw dropping. Until about 18 or so months ago it was one of the few absolute givens in life, like death and taxes, that cars always dropped in price with age (except in very rare cases where the car became so old and few in number that it's pricing becomes rarity based).  I never imagined I would ever see a situation in my life where one could sell a car for more than what was paid for it, after 2 or 3 years and X number of extra miles on the clock.  (It certainly is also a very powerful way to convey the concept of monetary debasement too!).

The question I have is whether these price moves have been a one time temporary abberation? Or are the start of a longer term trend change that is just getting started - and so one could well do what you suggest, i.e. buy, use and then sell for likely at least the same amount after 2 or 3 years.

 

[Sour Mash]

3 hours ago, anonguest said:

It does make you think doesn't it.

The recent price moves in the second hand car market have been jaw dropping. Until about 18 or so months ago it was one of the few absolute givens in life, like death and taxes, that cars always dropped in price with age (except in very rare cases where the car became so old and few in number that it's pricing becomes rarity based).  I never imagined I would ever see a situation in my life where one could sell a car for more than what was paid for it, after 2 or 3 years and X number of extra miles on the clock.  (It certainly is also a very powerful way to convey the concept of monetary debasement too!).

The question I have is whether these price moves have been a one time temporary abberation? Or are the start of a longer term trend change that is just getting started - and so one could well do what you suggest, i.e. buy, use and then sell for likely at least the same amount after 2 or 3 years.

 

 

I doubt used car prices will hold up as fuel prices go higher and stay high and disposable cash dries up.  Then comes the economic crash .. also not good for prices.

OTOH, supply of new cars is likely to be constrained for some time, so that might support prices somewhat with people prepared to pay to get something today rather than wait 6-12 months for a new car.

My guess is that used prices will still drop back towards what we would consider the 'normal' zone over the next year but be higher than you would expect given the other factors (poor economy, costly fuel).

 

The paradigm of depreciation certainly hasn't gone away for good, we're just in an anomalous situation where things have transitioned ... ie economy gone nuts with higher money supply coupled with supply chain shortages.

 

 

[Saving For a Space Ship]

From today all new homes & buildings with associated parking in England will be required to have #EV chargepoints installed, incl. supermarkets or workplaces.

 Hear from our Head of Built Environment, Rob Hughes, in Construction News:  

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/agenda/opinion/what-the-mandatory-ev-charging-rules-mean-for-contractors-09-03-2022/

..and yet ...

Car industry in shock and fuel prices climb as government scraps all grants for electric vehicles

https://www.cityam.com/breaking-car-industry-in-shock-as-department-for-transport-scraps-all-grants-for-electric-vehicles/

Edited June 15, 2022 by Saving For a Space Ship

[Gurgle]

14 hours ago, Saving For a Space Ship said:

From today all new homes & buildings with associated parking in England will be required to have #EV chargepoints installed, incl. supermarkets or workplaces.

 Hear from our Head of Built Environment, Rob Hughes, in Construction News:  

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/agenda/opinion/what-the-mandatory-ev-charging-rules-mean-for-contractors-09-03-2022/

..and yet ...

Car industry in shock and fuel prices climb as government scraps all grants for electric vehicles

https://www.cityam.com/breaking-car-industry-in-shock-as-department-for-transport-scraps-all-grants-for-electric-vehicles/

You mean the government just pushed the problem onto private companies ?   That's how it looks.

In other news, EV is now more than 50% of new car sales in the UK.  I personally don't understand this because the infrastructure just isn't there to support it, but those are the stats.

[dpg50000]

8 minutes ago, Gurgle said:

You mean the government just pushed the problem onto private companies ?   That's how it looks.

In other news, EV is now more than 50% of new car sales in the UK.  I personally don't understand this because the infrastructure just isn't there to support it, but those are the stats.

I suspect this is mainly company cars, where the tax break makes it attractive. I'd also guess most other people aren't really buying EV's - they're waiting for their ICE car to reach it's end of life (like me), then will see what the situation is in terms of infrastructure, battery life, price etc.

[Gurgle]

5 minutes ago, dpg50000 said:

I suspect this is mainly company cars, where the tax break makes it attractive. I'd also guess most other people aren't really buying EV's - they're waiting for their ICE car to reach it's end of life (like me), then will see what the situation is in terms of infrastructure, battery life, price etc.

I know plenty of people who bought EVs who don't have company cars.  Its just the latest thing people want to be seen with on their driveway as far as I can see.  We seem to live in a world which is all about image rather than substance

[2buyornot2buy]

25 minutes ago, Gurgle said:

You mean the government just pushed the problem onto private companies ?   That's how it looks.

In other news, EV is now more than 50% of new car sales in the UK.  I personally don't understand this because the infrastructure just isn't there to support it, but those are the stats.

50% of new UK car sales are not BEV. 

Most recent stats I can get at the mo is for May 22 where one in eight new car sales were BEV. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by 2buyornot2buy

[Gurgle]

2 hours ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

50% of new UK car sales are not BEV. 

Most recent stats I can get at the mo is for May 22 where one in eight new car sales were BEV. 

EV includes both battery electric and hybrid electric.  If you're talking specifically about BEV then you need to be specific as this is the industry definition of EV.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/the-uk-scraps-its-1500-new-ev-grant-a-year-early-heres-why/

"Battery and hybrid electric vehicles (EVs) now make up more than half of all new cars sold and fully electric car sales have risen by 70% in the last year, now representing 1 in 6 new cars joining UK roads."

[2buyornot2buy]

25 minutes ago, Gurgle said:

EV includes both battery electric and hybrid electric.  If you're talking specifically about BEV then you need to be specific as this is the industry definition of EV.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/the-uk-scraps-its-1500-new-ev-grant-a-year-early-heres-why/

"Battery and hybrid electric vehicles (EVs) now make up more than half of all new cars sold and fully electric car sales have risen by 70% in the last year, now representing 1 in 6 new cars joining UK roads."

Sorry but you said 

3 hours ago, dpg50000 said:

I personally don't understand this because the infrastructure just isn't there to support it, but those are the stats

What infrastructure is required to support hybrid, mild hybrid and plug-in hybrid cars? Petrol stations? 

[Gurgle]

31 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

Sorry but you said 

What infrastructure is required to support hybrid, mild hybrid and plug-in hybrid cars? Petrol stations? 

I did indeed.  Many of those hybrids are now PHEV so plug-in and therefore require charging points to get the maximum benefit, especially in the current times of very high fuel prices.

That said, you are correct that I didn't think it through properly and not all those vehicles need that infrastructure.  My bad.