Bruce Banner Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 5 minutes ago, rockerboy said: It seems people will hear nothing against lovely cuddly Corbyn, especially if it is the truth ;). Methinks you have been taken in by Corbyn's manufactured "lower voice of reason" acting on telly. Corbyn has no intention of doing what is right for the country, but has every intention of trying to further his true Marxist coloured ideals and that is why is on every protest going. What nonsense. Corbyn, who I detest by the way, was doing his job in opposing a government motion. Had the Tory ERG not voted against it we would have been out of the EU with a deal, months ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 3 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said: You think only Remainers are Patriots? Let's see who the Brexit cheerleaders are, and you can tell me how each one will do great restorative things for the country, their plan, their vision [ x ] Nigel Farage [ x ] Boris Johnson [ x ] John Redwood [ x ] Prit Patel [ x ] David Davies [ x ] Daniel Hannan [ x ] Andrea Leadsom [ x ] Liam Fox [ x ] Arron Banks [ x ] Dominic Raab [ x ] Jacob Rees Mogg [ x ] Dominic Cummings [ x ] Michael Gove A trustworthy band. With good intentions. Great statemanship. Honest. Good record of good deeds. In touch with the people. Sweating empathy. Not interested in money at all. Power just bores the pants off them. Yup, by supporting this lot - leavers are as far from patriots as Uranus is to the Earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: Corbyn, who I detest by the way, was doing his job in opposing a government motion. was putting party politics first and neglecting the country Fixed it for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 24 minutes ago, rockerboy said: ALMOST ALL LABOUR MPS VOTED AGAINST THE DEAL ( 3 Labour MPs voted for the deal). What Boris is having to do now, is a direct result of LABOUR blocking Brexit. Corbyn's fumblings and pathetic incompetance as a leader has caused the huge problems we now face of a no-deal. The irony here is that Boris VOTED FOR the deal Labour policy at the 2017 GE was to seek a Brexit deal while remaining in the Customs Union and Single Market. The WA did not deliver that so the clear mandate for Labour MPs was to vote against the WA. The ERG defied the govt whip to vote against the WA - these were Tory MPs who voted against their own government pursuing the policies on which they were elected. Boris voted against the deal twice and for it once - make of that what you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Just now, rockerboy said: Fixed it for you Would we have been out of the EU now had the Tory ERG voted for May's deal? Yes or no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 28 minutes ago, zugzwang said: There's a great deal of ill-feeling now on the European side. Any hope of leaving on good terms and remaining good neighbours has been forfeit. De Gaulle's instincts were sound after all. The tone of Europeans posting on various forums has defintely turned nasty. Who can blame them. Imagine if Spain caused the same amount of shit, told us to feck off - we'd be the same. A small, divided, unhappy and impoverished little island with no friends left around the world. Disliked by many, including oureselves. Great acheivement. From being a great nation with so much great history, respect and influence to a standing joke. Forever in the world's history books of gigantic global follies. Stupid British. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 10 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: What nonsense. Corbyn, who I detest by the way, was doing his job in opposing a government motion. Had the Tory ERG not voted against it we would have been out of the EU with a deal, months ago. The job of the Opposition is to give the Government a hard time. But if you could replace them with a robot that just automatically says "no" to everything then they're not doing the job. At least the robot wouldn't be trying to use its position to wriggle in to power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, rockerboy said: It seems people will hear nothing against lovely cuddly Corbyn, especially if it is the truth ;). Methinks you have been taken in by Corbyn's manufactured "lower voice of reason" acting on telly. Corbyn has no intention of doing what is right for the country, but has every intention of trying to further his true Marxist coloured ideals and that is why is on every protest going. Marx was the last of the great classical economists. Naive in many ways, as they all were, but deeply insightful too. He brought the profit motive to Adam Smith, and no-one has spoken more prophetically about the social injustices that capitalism entrains. Conservatives should embrace him, just as Lefties should embrace Hayek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Just now, Riedquat said: The job of the Opposition is to give the Government a hard time. But if you could replace them with a robot that just automatically says "no" to everything then they're not doing the job. At least the robot wouldn't be trying to use its position to wriggle in to power. Would we have been out of the EU now had the Tory ERG voted for May's deal? Yes or no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: Would we have been out of the EU now had the Tory ERG voted for May's deal? Yes or no? Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's the point flying over your head. Edited August 30, 2019 by Riedquat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 minute ago, zugzwang said: Marx was the last of the great classical economists. Naive in many ways, as they all were, but deeply insightful too. He brought the profit motive to Adam Smith, and no-one has spoken more prophetically about the social injustices that capitalism entrains. Conservatives should embrace him, just as Lefties should embrace Hayek. Interesting. But wasn't Hayek Thatcher's guiding light - or did she conveniently misinterpret his writings? I have only glanced at his stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Just now, Riedquat said: Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's the point flying over your head. Neither, it is a red herring! Regardless of Corbyn's actions, we would be out of the EU now had the Tory ERG not voted against May's deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Would we have been out of the EU now had the Tory ERG voted for May's deal? Yes or no? No - The deal on offer was a political stinker for the UK. We would have been out in name only, but under significant EU control - but you already know that.. Edited August 30, 2019 by rockerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: Neither, it is a red herring! Regardless of Corbyn's actions, we would be out of the EU now had the Tory ERG not voted against May's deal. Your point being? I was putting forward my opinion of Corbyn, nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickb1 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 18 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: There is no guarantee that Brexit will lead to the death of the conservative party. At the moment it is looking like it could be its saviour. The Remain vote is fundamentally split and as long as a no deal is delivered the conservatives will gain almost all of the BP/UKIP vote. That should be enough to cobble together a majority, even if many moderate Tories move to the Lib Dems. The real price of Brexit would then be a reinvigorated more right wing Tory party. HPC is also not going to be helped by a hard Brexit as the BoE has already said it will react by cutting rates, restarting QE and providing almost unlimited liquidity to banks for the provision of cheap mortgages/loans. i I hope and believe you are wrong on all counts ? I have in mind that there will really only be the current regime to blame for food and medicine price hikes and shortages, collapsing pound etc. and reactions even from within the C party to the "proroging" (= pro - rogue?). As for QE, well printing money is always an option, but to do this to buy back bonds? with interest rates so low this limits government ability to borrow via further bond issues, which will leave it in a fix in the recession. They could use money printing for other purposes having left the EU (at the mo. Maastricht treaty prohibits overt deficit financing) but to do so would break the current social contract between government and finance, which leaves the banks in control of the money supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Just now, Riedquat said: Your point being? I was putting forward my opinion of Corbyn, nothing more. I do not condemn nor defend Corbyn, but without the ERG voting against May's deal it would have gone through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 14 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said: Labour policy at the 2017 GE was to seek a Brexit deal while remaining in the Customs Union and Single Market. The WA did not deliver that so the clear mandate for Labour MPs was to vote against the WA. Fair enough - Ultimately, it was a position to stiffle Brexit happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 minute ago, rockerboy said: Fair enough - Ultimately, it was a position to stiffle Brexit happening. It is an undeliverable outcome (as were TM's "red lines"). My point is that if you're going to point the finger for the failure of the WA the guilty party is really the ERG who voted against a 3 line whip on a deal negotiated by their own government, not Labour MPs who voted in line with their manifesto position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MancTom Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 31 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: What nonsense. Corbyn, who I detest by the way, was doing his job in opposing a government motion. Had the Tory ERG not voted against it we would have been out of the EU with a deal, months ago. why is it his job to oppose a government motion? Surely thats only the case if labour disagrees with the policy, it should not be as a matter of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 4 hours ago, FANG said: When you resort to petty insults its evident that you are losing the argument So suck it up cup cake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said: It is an undeliverable outcome (as were TM's "red lines"). My point is that if you're going to point the finger for the failure of the WA the guilty party is really the ERG who voted against a 3 line whip on a deal negotiated by their own government, not Labour MPs who voted in line with their manifesto position What you then have to ask is what the result is of their voting - will the final outcome therefore be closer to or further from the position in their manifesto, and would it have been reasonable to know it at the time of the vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 47 minutes ago, rockerboy said: Corbyn has no intention of doing what is right for the country, but has every intention of trying to further his true Marxist coloured ideals I think Corbyn is an idealist who genuinely believes that implementation of his ideals would be good for the country. Compare and contrast with a cynical opportunist like Osborne who after years in opposition talking about Labour's irresponsible housing bubble, when in power then deliberately stoked a "nice little housing boom" himself in order to try to buy an election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 22 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Let's see who the Brexit cheerleaders are, and you can tell me how each one will do great restorative things for the country, their plan, their vision [ x ] Nigel Farage [ x ] Boris Johnson [ x ] John Redwood [ x ] Prit Patel [ x ] David Davies [ x ] Daniel Hannan [ x ] Andrea Leadsom [ x ] Liam Fox [ x ] Arron Banks [ x ] Dominic Raab [ x ] Jacob Rees Mogg [ x ] Dominic Cummings [ x ] Michael Gove A trustworthy band. With good intentions. Great statemanship. Honest. Good record of good deeds. In touch with the people. Sweating empathy. Not interested in money at all. Power just bores the pants off them. Yup, by supporting this lot - leavers are as far from patriots as Uranus is to the Earth. Most of the Leavers are like that, not only their leaders. There is nothing honest or good about them, at least I have not heard anything contrary to that so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, MancTom said: why is it his job to oppose a government motion? Surely thats only the case if labour disagrees with the policy, it should not be as a matter of course. It isn't necessarily and I retract that bit (Corbyn, who I detest by the way, was doing his job in opposing a government motion) of my post, it was irrelevant anyway as it was the ERG that scuppered May's deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said: It is an undeliverable outcome (as were TM's "red lines"). My point is that if you're going to point the finger for the failure of the WA the guilty party is really the ERG who voted against a 3 line whip on a deal negotiated by their own government, not Labour MPs who voted in line with their manifesto position Interesting point really - Labour lost the election on their manifesto. One cannot absolve Labour MPS from their actions on the basis of a FAILED election policy. Well you can attempt to do so as you are doing, but it s still a form of gaslighting really Edited August 30, 2019 by rockerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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