Peter Hun Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 7 minutes ago, inbruges said: Or how about trying to understand the millions of indigenous British people who relied on unskilled and semi skilled work for a living who were forced to compete with immigrants(not their fault) willing to work for very little and longer and live in far worse living conditions, take it or leave it or we will find someone better from the poor EU. I wonder when the low skilled will realise that the low tax/low spending, laissez-faire future the hard brexiteers envisage for Britain includes cheap labour competing against the Third-World at Third-World wages ? Quote forced to compete with immigrants(not their fault) Not their fault? Really? Lets see how that pans out with the savage capitalism that they voted for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroSumGame Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said: And this is some specific evidence to explain your chauvinistic lying charlatan comments. What about Kate Hoey? Not a single vote of confidence from her local Labour party, in remain constituency Vauxhall. To be deselected... And as for Skinner, I put him in the same category as Mogg. Edited August 12, 2018 by ZeroSumGame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 Good thing Brexit is going to stop this sort of revolving door corruption eh? http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/rail-news/ex-carillion-boss-to-take-over-25bn-balfour-beatty-vinci-hs2-contracts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 50 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: No it's not. Firstly back in the 70s the context was very different. There was no WTO and the default wasn't low/zero tariffs. Benn specifically refers to a deal tailored to suit us. In fact he is not advocating what would now be called an FTA because he still wanted the ability to restrict imports when it suited us. This is the trouble with digging up videos from 40 years ago - the context changes - but I think yes the underlying agenda of Benn is what is best for UK. To that end he serves his electorate. As for Hoey - don’t know much about her - but it was never going to end well taking a polar opposite view to your local constituents. None of the above makes them lying charlatans or chauvinists. Like I say - disagree by all means - but show respect or you will yourself receive none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 35 minutes ago, Peter Hun said: I wonder when the low skilled will realise that the low tax/low spending, laissez-faire future the hard brexiteers envisage for Britain includes cheap labour competing against the Third-World at Third-World wages ? Not their fault? Really? Lets see how that pans out with the savage capitalism that they voted for. Lets see how far the intellectual arguments work on people that now just want to last out and probably don't go into it as deep as you and many other whining Remainers and who have nothing to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 36 minutes ago, ZeroSumGame said: What about Kate Hoey? Not a single vote of confidence from her local Labour party, in remain constituency Vauxhall. To be deselected... And as for Skinner, I put him in the same category as Mogg. I used to like Skinner, but the older I got the more I realised he was just that little cheeky boy who would come out with those one liners to get a few self indulgent sniggers and contributed nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 27 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: This is the trouble with digging up videos from 40 years ago - the context changes - but I think yes the underlying agenda of Benn is what is best for UK. To that end he serves his electorate. As for Hoey - don’t know much about her - but it was never going to end well taking a polar opposite view to your local constituents. None of the above makes them lying charlatans or chauvinists. Like I say - disagree by all means - but show respect or you will yourself receive none. Chauvinist - a person displaying aggressive or exaggerated patriotism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: Chauvinist - a person displaying aggressive or exaggerated patriotism Precisely - the word does not apply to Benn, Skinner, or Galloway. Well done for looking it up though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habeas Domus Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 The latest disinformation from the Guardian More than 100 seats that backed Brexit now want to remain in EU https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/11/more-than-100-pro-leave-constituencies-switch-to-remain They list 10 seats which switched from Leave to Remain, but don't bother to list any which have switched from Remain to Leave. There is no mention at all of the fact a nationwide referendum is based on one man one vote, constituencies have nothing to do with it - otherwise they could just magic up a bunch of new constituencies in London to get the result they want. Going back to 2016 https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservative-and-labour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/ 70% of Conservative constituencies and 60% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave in the EU referendum. Have the figures got better since then or worse? The guardian study was jointly commissioned by Best for Britain, which is campaigning against Brexit, and the anti-racist Hope Not Hate group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Habeas Domus said: The latest disinformation from the Guardian More than 100 seats that backed Brexit now want to remain in EU https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/11/more-than-100-pro-leave-constituencies-switch-to-remain They list 10 seats which switched from Leave to Remain, but don't bother to list any which have switched from Remain to Leave. There is no mention at all of the fact a nationwide referendum is based on one man one vote, constituencies have nothing to do with it - otherwise they could just magic up a bunch of new constituencies in London to get the result they want. Going back to 2016 https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservative-and-labour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/ 70% of Conservative constituencies and 60% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave in the EU referendum. Have the figures got better since then or worse? The guardian study was jointly commissioned by Best for Britain, which is campaigning against Brexit, and the anti-racist Hope Not Hate group. Aye - fake news. I think they polled around 7000 people. How many people per constituency does that represent? Edited August 12, 2018 by GrizzlyDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 2 hours ago, inbruges said: Lets see how far the intellectual arguments work on people that now just want to last out and probably don't go into it as deep as you and many other whining Remainers and who have nothing to lose. What intellectual arguments? Lets watch them get get ****ed. Quote that now just want to last out I assume you mean get out? Any one who wants out of the EU, no matter what, won't pass the 50% of the threshold and therefore simply don't matter in a referendum system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 4 hours ago, dugsbody said: I don't accept your words but to answer the point, there will always be richer and poorer areas. It's a good thing that the richer areas help the poorer areas. The concept is pretty standard. You can stop with your strawman argument now. So it's ok for countries to be scroungers. Thanks for confirming. You will have no issue with us trying to do similar with our exit from the EU then. Glad we all agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 30 minutes ago, Habeas Domus said: The latest disinformation from the Guardian More than 100 seats that backed Brexit now want to remain in EU https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/11/more-than-100-pro-leave-constituencies-switch-to-remain They list 10 seats which switched from Leave to Remain, but don't bother to list any which have switched from Remain to Leave. There is no mention at all of the fact a nationwide referendum is based on one man one vote, constituencies have nothing to do with it - otherwise they could just magic up a bunch of new constituencies in London to get the result they want. Going back to 2016 https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservative-and-labour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/ 70% of Conservative constituencies and 60% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave in the EU referendum. Have the figures got better since then or worse? The guardian study was jointly commissioned by Best for Britain, which is campaigning against Brexit, and the anti-racist Hope Not Hate group. Wow. It's complete conjecture dressed up to look like something else. Disingenuous at the very least. Downright lies quite possibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick73 Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, ccc said: Wow. It's complete conjecture dressed up to look like something else. Disingenuous at the very least. Downright lies quite possibly. Opinion's are always bent, to sway the popular of lemmings who believe all they are told, with a statement that evidence is forthcoming. The winds of change are in the air, basically the US economy is on a runner. 10 years ago the globe dropped interest rates to follow the Federal Reserve, they will follow again as rates begin to rise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: Precisely - the word does not apply to Benn, Skinner, or Galloway. Well done for looking it up though. It applies perfectly to Benn's comments in that clip, thinking that we can get "what suits us best" by imposing our will on other countries. As for Galloway, to talk about a new "Pax Britannica" is pure imperialist delusion. Edited August 12, 2018 by thecrashingisles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 30 minutes ago, ccc said: Wow. It's complete conjecture dressed up to look like something else. Disingenuous at the very least. Downright lies quite possibly. No, it's based on a poll with a very large sample. You can read the details here - http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/4e1ciqwvua/Copy of PV results 180807 day one_w.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 34 minutes ago, ccc said: So it's ok for countries to be scroungers. Thanks for confirming. You will have no issue with us trying to do similar with our exit from the EU then. Glad we all agree. False equivalence fallacy. The UK can try, but the decisions in the EU are taken as a group and I don't think the group will allow a rich non member country which will continue to enjoy the geographic stability and relative wealth the EU generates on its doorstep, to also have the additional benefits of the union without contributing to the agreed costs. But worth another 17 tries in differently worded white papers I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 44 minutes ago, ccc said: So it's ok for countries to be scroungers. Thanks for confirming. You will have no issue with us trying to do similar with our exit from the EU then. The Scottish unionist doth protest too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 16 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said: Meh. Our economy and population is bigger than Canada, Australia, we can do all this on our own. Both Canada and Australia's main exports are natural resources Dave. IIRC 40-50% of money in. You can't compare us to them. All you need to do is look here and imagine our export levels cut in half - this is the jeopardy the 'Brexit leaders' are willing to put us through. On it not being about money, you obviously have your own cure my cancer kit, a shotgun and do home-schooling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Habeas Domus said: The latest disinformation from the Guardian It saddens and worries me that the press are so openly partisan now. Very hard to find objective coverage. The article is part of a last-ditch, broad and well-funded campaign to persuade Labour MPs to support the idea of a 2nd ref - doomed to just prolong our agony I fear. I saw a speech from one of the People's Vote demos, Bristol I think, saying "we won't be quiet, democracy didn't die in 2016." Didn't we have a vote around about then? Has it been respected and supported? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 Just now, thehowler said: I saw a speech from one of the People's Vote demos, Bristol I think, saying "we won't be quiet, democracy didn't die in 2016." Didn't we have a vote around about then? Has it been respected and supported? You must have been living in another country for the last two years and missed the fact that our entire political system has been consumed by dealing with the result of the 2016 vote. If it had been ignored, that wouldn't have been the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 24 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: It applies perfectly to Benn's comments in that clip, thinking that we can get "what suits us best" by imposing our will on other countries. I think you are mistaking national pride for something else. 5 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Both Canada and Australia's main exports are natural resources Dave. IIRC 40-50% of money in. You can't compare us to them. All you need to do is look here and imagine our export levels cut in half - this is the jeopardy the 'Brexit leaders' are willing to put us through. On it not being about money, you obviously have your own cure my cancer kit, a shotgun and do home-schooling? It’s private healthcare, longbows, and public school for the Grizzlys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said: You must have been living in another country for the last two years and missed the fact that our entire political system has been consumed by dealing with the result of the 2016 vote. Do the people behind the People's Vote recognize the result of the 2016 ref and wish to see it enacted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said: I think you are mistaking national pride for something else. There's a difference between pride and thinking you can impose your will on other countries because of a deluded sense of how special we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, thehowler said: It saddens and worries me that the press are so openly partisan now. Very hard to find objective coverage. The article is part of a last-ditch, broad and well-funded campaign to persuade Labour MPs to support the idea of a 2nd ref - doomed to just prolong our agony I fear. I saw a speech from one of the People's Vote demos, Bristol I think, saying "we won't be quiet, democracy didn't die in 2016." Didn't we have a vote around about then? Has it been respected and supported? 89% of MPs in 2017 elected on leave mainfestos (might be more actually if you include the DUP). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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