Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[jonb2]

4 minutes ago, pig said:

+ The Mail, Murdoch et al.

Aren’t this lot responsible for setting up much of what is wrong with Britain in the first place ?

Well Pig Murdoch wants the deregulation.

[Futuroid]

42 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

I've posted this before...

The original article...

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86556

Private Eye then looked into it...Interesting that the MSM aren't poking their noses in...

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/issue-1454/hp-sauce

Love the cartoon - funny 'cos it's true!

[Futuroid]

5 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Ok, here's another one, The Herald

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15597163.Why_Tory_Brexit_spells_Anarchy_for_the_UK/#comments-anchor

"A by-product of the European Withdrawal Bill is a recreation of a centralised UK state, with power back where it belongs: in Westminster and not in devolved assemblies. The Scottish Nationalists will have nowhere to go as Scotland is bound in the straight-jacket of a new UK single market. Scots will have to learn to live without their free services because the state will be slashed and the money will dry up, just like the oil. There will be no more indyrefs because, in the post-Brexit unitary state envisaged by the Great Repeal Bill, secession may be deemed illegal, as it is in Spain. Resistance will be futile."

Britain will goose-step to victory. Glorious!

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Tapori said:

Why did we have one in the 70s? For a laugh?

 

AFAIK, that was a proper referendum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum_Act_1975 - edit: although it does mention 'non-binding'?

The Brexit vote seems to have legally been an opinion poll, as the Tories who bought us Brexit arrogantly though the establishment propoganda would win it, so why bother to spend time planning for the consequences of losing?

I'm not saying that it should be ignored because it was more of an opinion poll. 

I'm positing that the Tories are trapped into following an opinion poll that they don't really want to enact, as to avoid doing so would overly concentrate attention on our faux democracy. 

Hopefully this internal/external 2 way trap is how this medieval relic of a party will pass on.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Guest

[HairyOb1]

18 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

1. Not true, you have posted upthread, "I hate this country at times, and 51.9% of the folk that live here."

2. Well, while your laughing, can you explain what your statement means, "Without wanting to sound bigoted, as I am not, I do believe, culturally, we have more in common with our EU cousins than we do with our asian ones.." 

3. Your obfuscation: I never said it would and you are just arguing with yourself now.

You have posted several times about your concerns regarding non-EU visa applicants e.g. Right to reside, bringing family over, undercutting wages, paying less tax...

Leaving aside the advantages of the visa system, how is this any different to the Leavers' concerns regarding FoM?

1.  'at times' I do, mainly as they're shafting the country with no real understanding why.  You're right, I did say that, but it isn't racist, far from it.

2.  We do have more in common with European cousins, culturally, than Asian people.  Again, it's a fact, not racist.

3.  No, it's always your obfuscation, in arguing me, not my points.

I have posted several times, that we will simply be posting one form of immigration, for another, and I find the irony funny, in that most people who voted for brexit to control immigration, have no idea that it simply means it will come from somewhere else.  That business visas offer up a free route into the country for all of their family through family reunion, in which finances are unchecked.  They do pay less tax on these visas.  They do undercut wages.  All of that, is factual, isn't racist.

I don't have concerns about it, and that's the key point you miss; I am simply pointing out, reiterating, that we will simply swap one form of immigration for another.

So all you have done, is called me a racist, when all I have done is point out facts, in order to try and force a point, as you didn't like me calling you, by inference, a racist.  I can see through it, but you're argument, as ever, is piss weak.

1.  We do have more in common with Europeans than Asians, culturally.  It's a fact.

2.  We will have more immigration from Asia if we do enforce brexit as a ) we'll have to, as we can't get enough staff to fill empty places, as we're shagging our youth who are now less inclined to go to University to learn technical trades and b ) We're allowing big consultancies, pretty much, to bring in migrants for roles they believe they cannot fill from UK pool of technical staff.

So, please, come back with some facts, not some hackneyed slurs just to obfuscate from your own position on it all.
 

[ccc]

24 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

I'm not against Brexit...its how it is done...

Agreed.

16 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Ok, here's another one, The Herald

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15597163.Why_Tory_Brexit_spells_Anarchy_for_the_UK/#comments-anchor

"A by-product of the European Withdrawal Bill is a recreation of a centralised UK state, with power back where it belongs: in Westminster and not in devolved assemblies. The Scottish Nationalists will have nowhere to go as Scotland is bound in the straight-jacket of a new UK single market. Scots will have to learn to live without their free services because the state will be slashed and the money will dry up, just like the oil. There will be no more indyrefs because, in the post-Brexit unitary state envisaged by the Great Repeal Bill, secession may be deemed illegal, as it is in Spain. Resistance will be futile."

To be continued. Resistance is futile ? Like the Brexit democratic vote coming under attack ? 

[rollover]

 

Quote

 

David Davis to make emergency trip to Brussels in bid to kick-start Brexit talks

Independent

Let Tories lead efforts to block 'no deal' Brexit

Guardian

 

There's something fishy going on backstage!

[ccc]

2 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

1.  'at times' I do, mainly as they're shafting the country with no real understanding why.  You're right, I did say that, but it isn't racist, far from it.

2.  We do have more in common with European cousins, culturally, than Asian people.  Again, it's a fact, not racist.

3.  No, it's always your obfuscation, in arguing me, not my points.

I have posted several times, that we will simply be posting one form of immigration, for another, and I find the irony funny, in that most people who voted for brexit to control immigration, have no idea that it simply means it will come from somewhere else.  That business visas offer up a free route into the country for all of their family through family reunion, in which finances are unchecked.  They do pay less tax on these visas.  They do undercut wages.  All of that, is factual, isn't racist.

I don't have concerns about it, and that's the key point you miss; I am simply pointing out, reiterating, that we will simply swap one form of immigration for another.

So all you have done, is called me a racist, when all I have done is point out facts, in order to try and force a point, as you didn't like me calling you, by inference, a racist.  I can see through it, but you're argument, as ever, is piss weak.

1.  We do have more in common with Europeans than Asians, culturally.  It's a fact.

2.  We will have more immigration from Asia if we do enforce brexit as a ) we'll have to, as we can't get enough staff to fill empty places, as we're shagging our youth who are now less inclined to go to University to learn technical trades and b ) We're allowing big consultancies, pretty much, to bring in migrants for roles they believe they cannot fill from UK pool of technical staff.

So, please, come back with some facts, not some hackneyed slurs just to obfuscate from your own position on it all.
 

We will have the choice as to where our immigration comes from. Whether our esteemed leaders make sensible decisions is another matter. 

 

That's what people voted on. 

[sPinwheel]

Just now, ccc said:

We will have the choice as to where our immigration comes from. Whether our esteemed leaders make sensible decisions is another matter. 

 

That's what people voted on. 

I thought they voted on whether we were part of the EU or not.

[HairyOb1]

Just now, ccc said:

We will have the choice as to where our immigration comes from. Whether our esteemed leaders make sensible decisions is another matter. 

That's what people voted on. 

We will not have a choice, as larger consultancies have an open book as to business visas, they have people, like Vinca Cable, who negotiated this with them, to allow more frictionless movement for technical people from within companies to contracts they hold within the UK.  It's happening now, and it will happen more.

What people voted on, and what they're getting is getting blurred ccc.

[pig]

14 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Well Pig Murdoch wants the deregulation.

 

8 minutes ago, highYield said:

AFAIK, that was a proper referendum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum_Act_1975 - edit: although it does mention 'non-binding'?

The Brexit vote seems to have legally been an opinion poll, as the Tories who bought us Brexit arrogantly though the establishment propoganda would win it, so why bother to spend time planning for the consequences of losing?

I'm not saying that it should be ignored because it was more of an opinion poll. 

I'm positing that the Tories are trapped into following an opinion poll that they don't really want to enact, as to avoid doing so would overly concentrate attention on our faux democracy. 

Hopefully this internal/external 2 way trap is how this medieval relic of a party will pass on.

 

23 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I don't think you can get more establishment than the far right of the Tory party and their friends.

Well, it looks to me like the effects of the 'economic' RW ideology have been seized on by the 'social' reactionary RW and blame dumped on everybody else, the Other -whether it be the EU, furreners, or even New Labour  - whose remit as far as I can work out was a 'palatable' Thatcherism anyway.

You could therefore argue that the Tory's are actually doing extraordinarily well out of this at the price of the population as a whole.

Surely thats the real 'cake and eat it' ?

[ccc]

13 minutes ago, sPinwheel said:

I thought they voted on whether we were part of the EU or not.

Yep. And this is an integral part of it.

11 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

We will not have a choice, as larger consultancies have an open book as to business visas, they have people, like Vinca Cable, who negotiated this with them, to allow more frictionless movement for technical people from within companies to contracts they hold within the UK.  It's happening now, and it will happen more.

What people voted on, and what they're getting is getting blurred ccc.

We will have the choice. End of story. As I said - whether this results in anything is another matter. 

 

500 million people = a choice. 

 

It's up to us. 

[jonb2]

11 minutes ago, pig said:

 

 

Well, it looks to me like the effects of the 'economic' RW ideology have been seized on by the 'social' reactionary RW and blame dumped on everybody else, the Other -whether it be the EU, furreners, or even New Labour  - whose remit as far as I can work out was a 'palatable' Thatcherism anyway.

You could therefore argue that the Tory's are actually doing extraordinarily well out of this at the price of the population as a whole.

Surely thats the real 'cake and eat it' ?

Yup - cake for pigs in a trough (I know you're a non Tory pig, Pig - post pig perhaps?)

[HairyOb1]

3 minutes ago, ccc said:

Yep. And this is an integral part of it.

We will have the choice. End of story. As I said - whether this results in anything is another matter. 

 

500 million people = a choice. 

 

It's up to us. 

You miss the salient point.  Big business, especially the larger global consultancies, have an almost inexhaustible inventory of business visas they can dole out.  You speak of control, but once the numbers of these visas actually gets out, I think you'll be surprised.

Anyway, I genuinely think it's moot, as I am really convinced we'll have a fudge from both the UK and EU on staying in, with some semblance of control on migration, i.e. a period of time where people can come and they have to leave if no jobs found, no benefits unless earned, etc, etc.  I think there will come a time we're offered a terrible deal, parliament rejects it and we renegotiate membership.  That's my honest belief now, as what is happening, would not be happening otherwise.  IMO.

[sPinwheel]

7 minutes ago, ccc said:

Yep. And this is an integral part of it.

It was? I don't remember many pro Brexit politicians saying so. Apart from Farage posing I  front of a pic of queing refugees.

Perhaps we should have a separate immigration referendum. 

[pig]

1 minute ago, jonb2 said:

Yup - cake for pigs in a trough (I know you're a non Tory pig, Pig - post pig perhaps?)

Lol - well, I guess you could say just at the kind of age I should have quietly turned permanently Tory I caught sight of the butchers knife and a pile of pork scratchings and ran squealing .

In all seriousness though I look at this almost sleazy Legatum story, listen to Brexiters  pretending they have no responsiblity for what they've voted for in the last 3 decades or so (in particular but to be fair not only) and am almost in awe at the  scale of this self-inflicted clusterfeck.

[kzb]

1 hour ago, jonb2 said:

I don't think you can get more establishment than the far right of the Tory party and their friends.

The leading lights of the NO campaign in 1975 were Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle and Peter Shore (OK Enoch Powell also)

The 1975 Labour Conference voted 2:1 for NO (i.e Leave).

The Labour Party had "no official position" on the matter.

The Tory Party did have an official position, which was YES (i.e Remain)

The SNP also had an official position, which was NO (i.e Leave)

 

[jonb2]

2 minutes ago, kzb said:

The leading lights of the NO campaign in 1975 were Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle and Peter Shore (OK Enoch Powell also)

The 1975 Labour Conference voted 2:1 for NO (i.e Leave).

The Labour Party had "no official position" on the matter.

The Tory Party did have an official position, which was YES (i.e Remain)

The SNP also had an official position, which was NO (i.e Leave)

 

KZB - Now, in 2017. The hard reality is that the hard right of the Tory party have a hard-on for a hard Brexit.

[sPinwheel]

Just now, jonb2 said:

KZB - Now, in 2017. The hard reality is that the hard right of the Tory party have a hard-on for a hard Brexit.

Remind me. Which party took us into into the EU in the first place.

 

Perhaps some people need reminding....

[jonb2]

6 minutes ago, sPinwheel said:

Remind me. Which party took us into into the EU in the first place.

 

Perhaps some people need reminding....

Yes Pinwheel - some people even think Heath did it illegally

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html

[HairyOb1]

 

49 minutes ago, kzb said:

The leading lights of the NO campaign in 1975 were Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle and Peter Shore (OK Enoch Powell also)

The 1975 Labour Conference voted 2:1 for NO (i.e Leave).

The Labour Party had "no official position" on the matter.

The Tory Party did have an official position, which was YES (i.e Remain)

The SNP also had an official position, which was NO (i.e Leave)

Is this before or after, as a result of joining, that our economy collapsed, due to joining?  

 

Edited October 15, 2017 by HairyOb1

[thecrashingisles]

50 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Yes Pinwheel - some people even think Heath did it illegally

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html

Which is completely nuts as it was Macmillan who first applied and it was voted on in successively parliaments under different governments.

[pig]

1 hour ago, jonb2 said:

KZB - Now, in 2017. The hard reality is that the hard right of the Tory party have a hard-on for a hard Brexit.

Frankly they are all coming across as batshit as this gem from Jeremy Hunt I’ve just run across.

 “The Chancellor must get the Treasury to have more realistic, optimistic forecasts & to find the money for a successful economy post Brexit.”

[slawek]

19 minutes ago, pig said:

Frankly they are all coming across as batshit as this gem from Jeremy Hunt I’ve just run across.

 “The Chancellor must get the Treasury to have more realistic, optimistic forecasts & to find the money for a successful economy post Brexit.”

Brilliant. Hunt was always a "Yes" man, he would try to sell whatever he asked for,  but even by his standards this is very Orwellian.

[casual_squash]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/15/austria-set-to-elect-youngest-eu-leader-in-move-to-the-right

In other news, the EU continues to go from strength to strength.

 Let me guess, nothing to see here