IMHAL Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 53 minutes ago, dryrot said: The Euro crisis gets deeper and deeper - thank heavens we are out of this. The Bailout is in trouble: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/frugal-four-block-deal-coronavirus-rescue-package-over-grants-worst-hit-countries The abrupt EU virtual summit held this week to try to break an impasse on a deal to finance the EU's coronavirus rescue package before the continent slides into what many fear will be a punishing recession - perhaps even brutal enough to finally break up the eurozone - has ended in failure, with the "frugal four" - as they're called in the European press - having garnered enough support to block the EU recovery plan, which must be approved by the entire EU27 Or, if you want a pro-EU spin: https://www.ft.com/content/8e30fd89-4958-491e-9f30-8c0b5f8b4cef ‘Frugal four’ chief Mark Rutte leads opposition to EU recovery plan The Euro catastrophe has been outlined over and over here. Yet heads-in-the-sand Remainers ignore it. (For how long can this blindness last?) As far as I understand it, the EU members are debating on how the scheme will work. The fact that it is a recovery plan with some great ideas about how to invest in the future is a bonus. They all agree that it needs to happen, it's just the mechanics that they need to agree on. Compare that to the UK. No plan...just money printing to keep the 0.1% happy and to heep house prices 'stable'. And you think that is good....lordy me! You are firing blanks...again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 39 minutes ago, dryrot said: More dreadful news wrt the UK's catastrophic Brexit. Toyota are pulling out of the UK. Oh, hang on, in fact they are increasing investment and plan new car construction in th UK. https://order-order.com/2020/06/19/toyota-choose-britain-as-new-hybrid-car-export-hub/ The link does'nt confirm a date for the new vehicle - just 2021 - but it looks legit. And Toyota - like Nissan - are committed to the Brexit-UK! they’ve now also announced they’re to shortly begin building a new hybrid car for Suzuki from their Burnaston plant, before being sold right across Europe. Doesn't sound legit. There is no chance of any decision being made in advance of knowing whether UK assembled cars will face EU tariffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 48 minutes ago, dryrot said: I note you didnt quote the article - I suppose it would have spoiled your point. I quote: "Commercial space is entering a new fast phase. I’m not sure it’s worth spending £5bn over eight years to build a ‘me too’ GPS service" I agree (and that applies to Galilieo, too) Commercial space was entering a new phase years ago. The statement to build a competing system was made recently. What has changed? Sounds like another u-turn when the reach of their post Brexit dreams did not meet the depth of their pocket. Sounds like a convenience new excuse to me to appease the naive. The fact is that Brexit will lead us to increasing rely on external actors to bridge the gap already filled in by our nearest neighbours.... we are just giving up a seat at the top table to fill our needs by others where we do not have a say. That doees not sound like taking back control to me...quite the oppositie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, IMHAL said: As far as I understand it, the EU members are debating on how the scheme will work. The fact that it is a recovery plan with some great ideas about how to invest in the future is a bonus. They all agree that it needs to happen, it's just the mechanics that they need to agree on. Compare that to the UK. No plan...just money printing to keep the 0.1% happy and to heep house prices 'stable'. And you think that is good....lordy me! You are firing blanks...again. Of course he does. Brexiters on this site absolutely hated money printing to inflate houses, but then they also love it when they can use it as an argument against the EU. They're populists, their arguments don't have to be consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 minute ago, dugsbody said: Of course he does. Brexiters on this site absolutely hated money printing to inflate houses, but then they also love it when they can use it as an argument against the EU. They're populists, their arguments don't have to be consistent. That must be the understatement of the year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 53 minutes ago, dryrot said: I note you didnt quote the article - I suppose it would have spoiled your point. I quote: "Commercial space is entering a new fast phase. I’m not sure it’s worth spending £5bn over eight years to build a ‘me too’ GPS service" I agree (and that applies to Galilieo, too) Galileo isn't a me to, it is far more capable than GPS and it has paying customers to cover the cost. There is no need for us to build our own system, we can have access to GPS, Galileo, Glonass and BeiDou. I doubt even this government could manage to fall out with the US, the EU, Russia and China at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 Just now, IMHAL said: That must be the understatement of the year It is the abjuration of the truth that has made be so strongly opposed to brexit. If they had reasonable, stable arguments that didn't keep shifting under your feet, were not blatant lies, I'd have no major issue with brexit. I wouldn't think it was the right approach but I'd accept that sometimes people just want different things. But they just lie constantly, and the worst is, they know they're lying but they don't care. That cannot indicate a good cause. It really is fascinating to watch so many people descend into cult like mentality where their entire moral compass gets abandoned in the name of their core belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggy Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 8 minutes ago, dugsbody said: Of course he does. Brexiters on this site absolutely hated money printing to inflate houses, but then they also love it when they can use it as an argument against the EU. They're populists, their arguments don't have to be consistent. This doesn't make sense and ironically lacks conistency. Money printing = bad, therefore when the organisation (EU) that we are arguing we need to leave does money printing, it is happily criticised. As is the money splurging in the UK by the BoE to inflate houses. I am personally against money printing. IMHAL seemed to imply that the EU money printing was a good economic decision, whereas the UK's was simply to assist the 0.1% (I agree with the latter). So again we have a EU = Always Good, UK = Always Bad? Any more populists lacking consistency here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggy Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, dugsbody said: It is the abjuration of the truth that has made be so strongly opposed to brexit. If they had reasonable, stable arguments that didn't keep shifting under your feet, were not blatant lies, I'd have no major issue with brexit. I wouldn't think it was the right approach but I'd accept that sometimes people just want different things. But they just lie constantly, and the worst is, they know they're lying but they don't care. That cannot indicate a good cause. It really is fascinating to watch so many people descend into cult like mentality where their entire moral compass gets abandoned in the name of their core belief. You could change a couple of words here and be speaking quite accurately of Remainers. Except maybe that I had an issue with the idea of remaining without the unstable arguments and blatant lies of the Remainers (and the democracy blocking too, let's not forget that). Those have merely steadied my resolve in those darkest years of the war, 2016 to 2019. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dryrot Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 41 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: May be we should split the cost on Galileo , but no, we’d rather navigate into a ditch to die. Seriously we don’t want to be wholly reliant on the rival systems. Thats a reasonable point. Perhaps we could leech off Galileo (if it ever works) and the US's GPS? Play one off against the other? Tho is we upset the US enough to ban us from GPS, we'll have other problems... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Huggy said: You could change a couple of words here and be speaking quite accurately of Remainers. Except maybe that I had an issue with the idea of remaining without the unstable arguments and blatant lies of the Remainers (and the democracy blocking too, let's not forget that). Those have merely steadied my resolve in those darkest years of the war, 2016 to 2019. A few Brexiteer lies.... We send £350m a week to Brussels We can’t stop Turkey joining We can’t stop a European army We are still liable to pay eurozone bailouts The UK rebate can be changed against our will Our VAT exemptions will be ended Cameron’s deal was not legally binding EU law is adopted by unelected bureaucrats We can’t control our borders in the EU Criminals arriving in Germany can get EU passports and come over here Health tourism costs us billions EU needs UK trade more than vice versa Past referendum results have been ignored Auditors still refuse to sign off the accounts CAP adds £400 to British food bills British steel suffers because of the EU Irish border will be unaffected by Brexit UK can’t deport EU criminals UK is always outvoted 60-70% of laws come from EU Renationalisation of industries is impossible We get no veto on future treaty change or integration The budget ceiling can increase without our consent We thought we were only joining a free trade zone Edited June 20, 2020 by Bruce Banner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 hour ago, dryrot said: You are a longterm poster and I respect that - but the above one-liner is close to trolling. It is quite absurd, and you know it. <sigh> no, national governments in the Euro cannot print or borrow money. Italy is foundering because it is locked into the Euro. But you - and everyone else - knows this. Either the "frugal" states bail Italy and Co. out or they leave the Euro (the latter would be my suggestion) They can’t borrow money? Do you really believe that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Huggy said: This doesn't make sense and ironically lacks conistency. Money printing = bad, therefore when the organisation (EU) that we are arguing we need to leave does money printing, it is happily criticised. As is the money splurging in the UK by the BoE to inflate houses. I am personally against money printing. IMHAL seemed to imply that the EU money printing was a good economic decision, whereas the UK's was simply to assist the 0.1% (I agree with the latter). So again we have a EU = Always Good, UK = Always Bad? Any more populists lacking consistency here? Try being informed. And compare that to what the UK's plan is for recovery....do they have a plan? Next Generation EU will raise money by temporarily lifting the own resources ceiling to 2.00% of EU Gross National Income, allowing the Commission to use its strong credit rating to borrow €750 billion on the financial markets. Also, I am no lover of the EU per say, there are many things and mistakes that it has done that I disagree/disaprove of. But I have to compare that to Brexit, and I an with dugsbody on that, I cannot buy into a plethera of lies and false promises, unicorns and zero plan/zero accountability project that Brexit has become. Give me a decent workable plan and I could buy into that...so far that has not even remotely materialised. Edited June 20, 2020 by IMHAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longgone Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 40 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: A few Brexiteer lies.... We send £350m a week to Brussels We can’t stop Turkey joining We can’t stop a European army We are still liable to pay eurozone bailouts The UK rebate can be changed against our will Our VAT exemptions will be ended Cameron’s deal was not legally binding EU law is adopted by unelected bureaucrats We can’t control our borders in the EU Criminals arriving in Germany can get EU passports and come over here Health tourism costs us billions EU needs UK trade more than vice versa Past referendum results have been ignored Auditors still refuse to sign off the accounts CAP adds £400 to British food bills British steel suffers because of the EU Irish border will be unaffected by Brexit UK can’t deport EU criminals UK is always outvoted 60-70% of laws come from EU Renationalisation of industries is impossible We get no veto on future treaty change or integration The budget ceiling can increase without our consent We thought we were only joining a free trade zone you forgot the breakup of the uk and a hard border in Ireland if we left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, longgone said: you forgot the breakup of the uk and a hard border in Ireland if we left. We're still in the transition period so plenty of time for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 52 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: A few Brexiteer lies.... We send £350m a week to Brussels We can’t stop Turkey joining We can’t stop a European army We are still liable to pay eurozone bailouts The UK rebate can be changed against our will Our VAT exemptions will be ended Cameron’s deal was not legally binding EU law is adopted by unelected bureaucrats We can’t control our borders in the EU Criminals arriving in Germany can get EU passports and come over here Health tourism costs us billions EU needs UK trade more than vice versa Past referendum results have been ignored Auditors still refuse to sign off the accounts CAP adds £400 to British food bills British steel suffers because of the EU Irish border will be unaffected by Brexit UK can’t deport EU criminals UK is always outvoted 60-70% of laws come from EU Renationalisation of industries is impossible We get no veto on future treaty change or integration The budget ceiling can increase without our consent We thought we were only joining a free trade zone We can't have blue passports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longgone Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: We're still in the transition period so plenty of time for that. not gonna happen like all the other fear mongering rubbish. how about the 4.3k worse off per year for every family in the uk and the stock market crash the high unemployment. all irrelevant now because of covid but all fairy tales nether the less. Every HPC member knows how rigged the economy is so why should Brexit affect anything ?, after all you guys know how quickly laws can be introduced you made enough of them like potholes on the road to brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Huggy said: This doesn't make sense and ironically lacks conistency. Money printing = bad, therefore when the organisation (EU) that we are arguing we need to leave does money printing, it is happily criticised. As is the money splurging in the UK by the BoE to inflate houses. I am personally against money printing. IMHAL seemed to imply that the EU money printing was a good economic decision, whereas the UK's was simply to assist the 0.1% (I agree with the latter). So again we have a EU = Always Good, UK = Always Bad? Any more populists lacking consistency here? Hi again Huggy, thanks for replying. You have it incorrect though. The argument seems to be that the EU is awful because of the Euro which prevents states from printing money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Huggy said: You could change a couple of words here and be speaking quite accurately of Remainers. Except maybe that I had an issue with the idea of remaining without the unstable arguments and blatant lies of the Remainers (and the democracy blocking too, let's not forget that). Those have merely steadied my resolve in those darkest years of the war, 2016 to 2019. Again I'm afraid you are not correct. The remain campaign certainly where not white as snow and I object to their very specific figures of how much we'd be worse off (even if they are actually being proved correct). They should have instead not stooped to brexiter level and instead let everyone know that pretty much all experts agree we'd be worse off but it was hard to know by how much. However, that is nothing compared to the brexiter side. Your entire cause was built off 40 years of lies about the EU. So much so that a website was constructed in an attempt to combat these lies, pointing out the truth of hundreds of them. It didn't work though, because it is much easier to just invent lie after lie, it takes no effort at all, and it takes a lot more effort to continually do the research to debunk them. Propaganda always paints the easy picture of the enemy being external and throughout history it has been a successful tactic, for the same reason marketing works. Humans love seductive, easy stories. They don't like a lot of bland boring stats (facts). So no, your statement above is just completely incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Bruce Banner said: A few Brexiteer lies.... We send £350m a week to Brussels We can’t stop Turkey joining We can’t stop a European army We are still liable to pay eurozone bailouts The UK rebate can be changed against our will Our VAT exemptions will be ended Cameron’s deal was not legally binding EU law is adopted by unelected bureaucrats We can’t control our borders in the EU Criminals arriving in Germany can get EU passports and come over here Health tourism costs us billions EU needs UK trade more than vice versa Past referendum results have been ignored Auditors still refuse to sign off the accounts CAP adds £400 to British food bills British steel suffers because of the EU Irish border will be unaffected by Brexit UK can’t deport EU criminals UK is always outvoted 60-70% of laws come from EU Renationalisation of industries is impossible We get no veto on future treaty change or integration The budget ceiling can increase without our consent We thought we were only joining a free trade zone That is a good list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 3 hours ago, dugsbody said: It is the abjuration of the truth that has made be so strongly opposed to brexit. If they had reasonable, stable arguments that didn't keep shifting under your feet, were not blatant lies, I'd have no major issue with brexit. I wouldn't think it was the right approach but I'd accept that sometimes people just want different things. But they just lie constantly, and the worst is, they know they're lying but they don't care. That cannot indicate a good cause. It really is fascinating to watch so many people descend into cult like mentality where their entire moral compass gets abandoned in the name of their core belief. Its probably 'nationalism'. You can decompose that into further nasties but the constituents aren't all necessarily bad. But your central point stands - any old tosh is apparently believed or put forward as argument by Leavers, and engaging with cynical or cultish obedience can therefore seem to be a waste of time. However for me its helped firm up an understanding of why we're better off in the EU and its probably a good idea to lay the ground for slinging out any no-deal isolationist US poodle government at the next election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 2 hours ago, longgone said: not gonna happen like all the other fear mongering rubbish. how about the 4.3k worse off per year for every family in the uk and the stock market crash the high unemployment. all irrelevant now because of covid but all fairy tales nether the less. But we still in transition.. we have left, but not really, the risks are still in play to a large extent. As for 'fear mongering'... well... let's look at why there are so many takes on 'the risks'. First, there is no Brexit plan, no agreed strategy, no agreed direction, no consistency, it changes by the day. If there was a strategy and plan then you would probably have a more focused set of quantified risks. That was remain's biggest mistake...not insisting on a plan and direction from Leave. .. they got in without a plan and a blank cheque... wow. 2 hours ago, longgone said: Every HPC member knows how rigged the economy is so why should Brexit affect anything ?, after all you guys know how quickly laws can be introduced you made enough of them like potholes on the road to brexit. Why would the EU or Brexit affect our HPI rigged economy? That was and always has been a decision made by our own governmnents to support HPI ... usually supported by direct policies.... it's all made in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longgone Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 minute ago, IMHAL said: But we still in transition.. we have left, but not really, the risks are still in play to a large extent. As for 'fear mongering'... well... let's look at why there are so many takes on 'the risks'. First, there is no Brexit plan, no agreed strategy, no agreed direction, no consistency, it changes by the day. If there was a strategy and plan then you would probably have a more focused set of quantified risks. That was remain's biggest mistake...not insisting on a plan and direction from Leave. .. they got in without a plan and a blank cheque... wow. Why would the EU or Brexit affect our HPI rigged economy? That was and always has been a decision made by our own governmnents to support HPI ... usually supported by direct policies.... it's all made in the UK. having a great big money printer superced any problems that come to the suface brexit or no brexit. Indeed hpi is the rigged driver of our all eggs in one basket economy and helps to sure up the myth of wealth but for hpi you need a income earning society to pay for it or very generous benefit payments. lets see how many bases they can cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggy Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 18 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Brexit Britain back to the Stone Age! 15 hours ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said: #theyknewwhattheywerevotingfor 6 hours ago, IMHAL said: That's what people voted for......apparently. At least 17.4m different kinds of Brexits remember, a few less versions of Remain. Not sure how many voted Brexit specifically for an independent satellite system though, or indeed who voted Remain because Galileo was so good. 4? 5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggy Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 3 hours ago, dugsbody said: Hi again Huggy, thanks for replying. You have it incorrect though. The argument seems to be that the EU is awful because of the Euro which prevents states from printing money. Always a pleasure! Money printing is shite, so not being able to do this is a good thing (all IMHO of course). Fiscal union, or indeed policies that cause situations that lead to money printing being an option (looking at you Mervyn and Mark as well!), are as rubbish as the money printing. 4 hours ago, IMHAL said: Next Generation EU will raise money by temporarily lifting the own resources ceiling to 2.00% of EU Gross National Income, allowing the Commission to use its strong credit rating to borrow €750 billion on the financial markets. Couldn't access the article via the normal means so just assumed it was about the printing frenzy. That's only €600bn: https://www.generali-investments.com/at/en/professional/ecb-emergency-qe-pepp-extended-until-mid-2021-and-beefed-up-by-e-600-bn/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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