Riedquat Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, dugsbody said: Hey, some common ground. It was a mistake to open FOM to a large group of economically unequal countries in short succession. It should have been staged a lot more gradually. We wouldn't be brexiting now if that had happened. The EU is far from perfect and that was quite a large mistake imo. Yes, have to agree with that, Brexit would've never been suggested (other than by the same Eurosceptics who have been ignored since the 70s). You seem surprised at common ground! Quote But, I do believe you're very wrong about "losing people". I have worked with many immigrants over the years and lots return to their countries with wealth and experience after a period of time. These countries (exhibit Poland) are growing enormously. The net direction is still heavily towards the UK, and even if it wasn't it must've set those places back a long way, delaying that catching up. Our immigration policy has been fundamentally parasitic. Edited January 22, 2019 by Riedquat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
localhero1983 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 18 minutes ago, dugsbody said: Oh wait a minute... You're another re-registered poster. The same one that went off on a xenophobic anti-German rant the last time? What is it with you guys? I spy with my little eye yet another Brexit forum ID beginning with Hairy, Opps I mean H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, localhero1983 said: I spy with my little eye yet another Brexit forum ID beginning with Hairy, Opps I mean H Who, dugsbody? Pretty sure I've been completely disagreeing with him on several things for quite a long time, not just Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, localhero1983 said: I spy with my little eye yet another Brexit forum ID beginning with Hairy, Opps I mean H Incorrect. As I said, I've only one account and my posting history reflects this. HairyOb may have had sock puppets but not me, and it's odd that you think our styles are even similar. Perhaps all remoaners blend into one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 33 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said: To me the key difference is that within the EU there is a plethora of vastly different cultures and attempting to provide the blanket one-size-fits-all solution that the EU proposes will not work. In fact it's clear most of the EU 'solutions' for things are really just things that Germany would want to see happen. I'm a big fan of keeping politics as local as possible because it then forces politics to be something that benefits that local area. This is one of the problems our current political system has in the UK; London essentially gets all the 'love' while the north of England really is not represented by Westminster politics. The EU does the same thing but on a more gigantic and oppressive scale. I disagree and so does the evidence. The peripheral poorer nations in the EU are growing enormously and this is nothing like the UK model where our government have not stimulated growth in the poorer UK areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, dugsbody said: I disagree and so does the evidence. The peripheral poorer nations in the EU are growing enormously and this is nothing like the UK model where our government have not stimulated growth in the poorer UK areas. Whether you are correct or not regarding UK government stimulus of poorer areas this has been concurrent with our membership of the EU, namely as a net-contributing member of the EU - to the tune of billions of pounds. Ergo membership of the EU does not help poorer areas of the UK prosper. Reform of the UK is certainly necessary but it cannot happen whilst we are a member of the EU. Edited January 22, 2019 by aheadofthecurve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
localhero1983 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 13 minutes ago, Riedquat said: Who, dugsbody? Pretty sure I've been completely disagreeing with him on several things for quite a long time, not just Brexit. I am not a 100% with this Guy, but have my suspicions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 26 minutes ago, Riedquat said: They might equalise rather a lot faster if some countries weren't losing a lot of the people they'd needed to catch up. Freedom of movement in the EU worked before it expanded. Ideally I'd put the brakes on it until they do equalise then open it up again. Ironically it will have pretty much equalised by the time we actually leave the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Brexit no deal preparations reach fever pitch...but we won't run out of Mr Kipling cakes! Gruniad, ref only... Tesco, Marks & Spencer, Majestic Wine and Mr Kipling owner Premier Foods are also building up stockpiles of alcohol and packet and tinned foods in case Britain crashes out of the EU and lorries are stacked up on both sides of the Channel. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/22/no-deal-brexit-panic-grips-major-uk-firms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, thehowler said: Brexit no deal preparations reach fever pitch...but we won't run out of Mr Kipling cakes! Gruniad, ref only... Tesco, Marks & Spencer, Majestic Wine and Mr Kipling owner Premier Foods are also building up stockpiles of alcohol and packet and tinned foods in case Britain crashes out of the EU and lorries are stacked up on both sides of the Channel. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/22/no-deal-brexit-panic-grips-major-uk-firms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 19 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said: Whether you are correct or not regarding UK government stimulus of poorer areas this has been concurrent with our membership of the EU, namely as a net-contributing member of the EU - to the tune of billions of pounds. Ergo membership of the EU does not help poorer areas of the UK prosper. Reform of the UK is certainly necessary but it cannot happen whilst we are a member of the EU. That is a lie. The vote to leave the EU simply tells the current UK political class "it's ok, it's the foreigners fault, you guys carry on". The important referendum was to change our voting system and we duffed that one too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINX9 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 39 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said: I think Sir Dyson is an afront to British values and decency. He should recind his title forthwith. Dyson's biggest market is in East and south east Asia - perfectly logical for him to have his HQ there. Sort of making the point that future growth is in Asia not in the high tariff protectionist EU! And Singapore has next to no crime either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 35 minutes ago, Riedquat said: Who, dugsbody? Pretty sure I've been completely disagreeing with him on several things for quite a long time, not just Brexit. We have. I think I remember a "howl at the moon" post at some point. I'm fundamentally positive about technological progress, perhaps sometimes naively so, and think that it overall enriches our lives. We've bashed heads on this for quite some time. I also have a - perhaps naive - hope that as a human species we can gradually move away from tribalism and fighting and blaming the one another (ie. foreigners). That is probably the biggest reason I want the EU project to succeed. It's aim is to unite a continent of people who have a history of warring with each other. And I believe the right of humans to move and live across more of our shared globe is a good thing ultimately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 4 hours ago, copydude said: No. It was formerly an autonomous region and part of the Soviet Union. Right little Commie, aren't we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 14 minutes ago, dugsbody said: The vote to leave the EU simply tells the current UK political class "it's ok, it's the foreigners fault, you guys carry on". That's your interpretation of what the leave vote meant and why maybe you didn't vote for it. You've been hoodwinked in to thinking the leave vote was out of xenophobia. For me the leave vote was about retaking control of our sovereignty. Reform cannot happen in the EU. It's too easy for them to pass legislation which overrules our own laws. A power they have shown they are fully willing to wield over the British. The passing of the Lisbon treaty for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said: Rubbish, more Project Fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 3 hours ago, aheadofthecurve said: Dyson thing is such a non-story. Pretty much all of Dyson's business is outside of the UK anyway and they have the manufacturing and R&D side based in the middle east anyway. Makes total sense they would move the HQ there too. Pretty much all mass manufacturing is done in the middle east because it's prohibitively expensive to mass produce in the UK - thanks a lot minimum wage and other socialist ideals! The naive left have of course jumped upon it though and are busy parroting it without really understanding the dynamic of it at all. That said - and as I alluded to above - the UK does have some significant problems in terms of how far socialism has pushed the country to be so unattractive to manufacturing and the EU federal state will only hasten that push towards more socialism. Post-brexit there will be plenty of opportunities to modernise our labour laws and make the UK a manufacturing power-force. There is nothing naive about having a worldview where you give a toss about your fellow man. It's called a society for a reason, we are social animals. I suppose by modernising, you mean going backward? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 25 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said: Dyson's biggest market is in East and south east Asia - perfectly logical for him to have his HQ there. Sort of making the point that future growth is in Asia not in the high tariff protectionist EU! And Singapore has next to no crime either. That's so unhinged I don't even know where to start.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINX9 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, dugsbody said: Not to worry sport, I've used FOM before to work on the continent and I'll be using it again in due course to vacate brexit Britain. One less remoaner for you to worry about. I suspect you'll soon be finding a new group to blame for stuff though. Good luck then. But if you were that valuable you wouldn't need freedom of movement - you could get a visa on merit! Obviously you are one of those GDP at all costs - and who cares about quality of life, the cost of housing, wages for the working classes (not the au pair classes) or the pressures on services. Why not have freedom of movement to the UK for the entire world then - why restrict it to EU/EEA member states - GDP would go up massively! Or we could have a fair migration policy for the entire world - based on quality not quantity! Those who come in either earn a lot or have skills and qualifications we need (e.g. nurses and doctors). Oddly that is what most nations do - outside the EU. Edited January 22, 2019 by MARTINX9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Chunketh said: There is nothing naive about having a worldview where you give a toss about your fellow man. It's called a society for a reason, we are social animals. I suppose by modernising, you mean going backward? I agree. I think trying to make politics more local makes it more relevant to the people it represents and in turn is able to 'give a toss' abou the needs of those people. By modernising I mean modernising. We still have socialist trappings from 50+ years ago. I'm looking forwards but you appear to be stuck in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 17 minutes ago, Peter Hun said: Rubbish, more Project Fear. Not worth disputing when the state leaders are saying exactly that... Mrs Merkel also said Germany wants to "make our contribution to the emergence of a European army." "We are committed to developing a common military culture, a common defence industry and a common line on arms exports," Mrs Merkel said. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46908205 You should take it up with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, dugsbody said: We have. I think I remember a "howl at the moon" post at some point. I'm fundamentally positive about technological progress, perhaps sometimes naively so, and think that it overall enriches our lives. We've bashed heads on this for quite some time. I also have a - perhaps naive - hope that as a human species we can gradually move away from tribalism and fighting and blaming the one another (ie. foreigners). That is probably the biggest reason I want the EU project to succeed. It's aim is to unite a continent of people who have a history of warring with each other. And I believe the right of humans to move and live across more of our shared globe is a good thing ultimately. Quite agree about technology. I too hope we can move away from crude tribalism, but I think we'll always need a group to identify with. it's fundamental to human relationships; people group into hierarchies of family, friends, acquaintances, workmates, with whom you engage with to a greater or lesser degree. By the time the group gets country sized (which is variable) your engagement is being stretched to its limit. Elected representatives are remote, your influence is small, & the government so distant as to be an irrelevance to everyday life - if your lucky. Adding another, supranational layer to that is, I think, a step too far. If their governance was seen to be wise, disinterested & free of corruption then you might persuade people that it's a good idea, but unfortunately I don't believe that to be true. And actually I think people quite like the difference (vive la difference!) of other cultures, & are quite happy to co-exist with them - so long as they respect the existing culture's right to exist. Good fences make good neighbours. The right of humans to move around is fine, but when a totally alien culture arrives & tries to dominate the existing one I'm afraid the results will not be pretty. It's adiabatic vs. isothermal expansion again! Edited January 22, 2019 by cock-eyed octopus clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46946413 Lol taking back control me **** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 38 minutes ago, thehowler said: Not worth disputing when the state leaders are saying exactly that... Mrs Merkel also said Germany wants to "make our contribution to the emergence of a European army." "We are committed to developing a common military culture, a common defence industry and a common line on arms exports," Mrs Merkel said. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46908205 You should take it up with them. Yes and Turkey will join the EU and swap up with immigrants from Syria. Soon to be departed, Merkel doesn't run the EU, no other countries will give any more than a raised eyebrow to the concept of a pacifist German run military and the EXISTING joint French-Germany-Dutch army is irrelevant. German involvement in defense projects will kill the export market for those goods, France wont countenance that. As I said Project Fear, utter ********. it will never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 19 minutes ago, yelims said: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46946413 Lol taking back control me **** Meh, normal business consolidation, its too small business area to keep now they lost the deal to GD. Much better news for our '****** Business' Brexiteers - P&O re-flag their ships to Cyprus because of Brexit https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-p-o/po-to-change-flag-of-uk-ships-to-cyprus-ahead-of-brexit-idUKKCN1PG1KA Sony moved to Holland because of Brexit https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2019/01/22/brexit-sony-moves-from-britain-to-the-netherlands/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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