aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Just now, yelims said: Do remind us how many years now has the UK been under "conservative" rightwing rule? Why has it not reformed itself since? Because we're part of the EU What do you think this whole brexit thing has been about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Just now, aheadofthecurve said: Because we're part of the EU What do you think this whole brexit thing has been about? What exact reform the Tories were not able to undertake while being in EU, please do tell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Just now, yelims said: What exact reform the Tories were not able to undertake while being in EU, please do tell We can't restrict freedom of movement for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said: We can't restrict freedom of movement for one. Except the UK chose not to restrict movement when the new eastern European states joined (something the UK pushed heavily for) but it could have. Also the number of people arriving from EU has collapsed since Brexit started yet over 100,000 per year came from India and China alone per year, why has UK under a conservative government done nothing about that? But anyways why is restricting freedom of movement such an important reform in your book? What will it achieve? Edited January 22, 2019 by yelims Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, yelims said: Except the UK chose not to restrict movement when the new eastern European states joined (something the UK pushed heavily for) but it could have But anyways why is restricting freedom of movement such an important reform in your book? What will it achieve? Freedom of movement places unnecessary strain on all aspects of the UK. From its workforce all the way to its public services. I have a feeling you're not looking to be convinced or to respond to my points with your own points (hence why you dodged my previous question about why you couldn't see how moving an HQ to be nearer its core business was pretty obviously a smart thing for a business to do) so I'll keep it concise. We're a small island nation which has limited resources being flooded by an ever-increasing population. This places a great demonstrable strain upon the country and one that has been manifested by overcrowded schools, high hospital waiting list times, sky-rocketing housing prices, long waits for public housing and an over-saturation of supply at the lower end of the job market. Perhaps you could extol the benefits of your wondrous freedom of movement? Edited January 22, 2019 by aheadofthecurve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said: Freedom of movement places unnecessary strain on all aspects of the UK. From its workforce all the way to its public services. I have a feeling you're not looking to be convinced or to respond to my points with your own points (hence why you dodged my previous question about why you couldn't see how moving an HQ to be nearer its core business was pretty obviously a smart thing for a business to do) so I'll keep it concise. We're a small island nation which has limited resources being flooded by an ever-increasing population. This places a great demonstrable strain upon the country and one that has been manifested by overcrowded schools, high hospital waiting list times, sky-rocketing housing prices, long waits for public housing and an over-saturation of supply at the lower end of the job market. You are dodging my question asking why are the Tories allowing uncontrolled immigration from outside the EU, they claimed to lower immigration to 100,000 yet that figure came from China and India alone 4 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said: Perhaps you could extol the benefits of your wondrous freedom of movement? America was build on immigrants, so is Australia, all doing rather well, Ireland next door has even less resources than UK and we had double the immigrants from EU as percentage of population yet none of the nonsense you wrote is an issue here, it is only an issue in UK because right wing parties and media have used it as a wedge issue, the facts dont support this false narrative. overcrowded schools build more schools, brand new one down the road from me, that 500 million a week the UK is already loosing since brexit vote could have built a lot of schools high hospital waiting list times, problem everywhere in western world, you could go the american model and cut out waiting for those who can pay sky-rocketing housing prices, problem everywhere in world thats not having a war, build more homes long waits for public housing see above and an over-saturation of supply at the lower end of the job market. educate people What are the Tories doing to help education, healtcare or housing? They are spending all the government energy on Brexit nonsense of years now, and for years more to come as hundreds of deals have to be negotiated and they can not even get one agreed on with their closest/friendliest neighbours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, yelims said: - redacted to save space The reason the tories allowed it is the same reason why so many are opposed to brexit - the EU represents a gravy train for MPs. They do not want to appear to be one that makes waves or it might threaten the big lobbying checks, the revolving door of MPs being employed in big EU firms for bureaucratic "favours" and the prospects of further employment in the EU parliament. MPs are incentivised to do whatever the EU wants. After brexit they will have no such incentive. As for america and australia why don't you compare the sizes of those countries to the size of the UK. Australia - ~7.5million kmsq, USA ~9.8million kmsq, UK land mass.... ~240,000 kmsq. Quite the difference. As for build more schools. With what cash? Where will they be built? Some field in the middle of nowhere? High hospital waiting lists might be a problem elsewhere but it does not mean that uncontrolled immigration doesn't fuel the problem. Skyrocketing houseprices again may exist elsewhere but uncontrolled immigration also contibutes to it - why not google the amount of houses we build each year compared with the population growth attributed to uncontrolled immigration. The answer might surprise you. As for "educate people" we do and we could do it better without uncontrolled immigration as I said above. Why aren't the immigrants coming here educated? Do you feel they are a lesser class that cannot be educated or something? Perhaps it is just a fact of life that some people will always gravitate to the lower end of the job market. I assume the reasons for it are myriad but those reasons exist and to force those people to compete with uncontrolled immigration for labour in their own country is not right. As for the drawn out brexit I agree it's been mishandled. Theresa May is a remainer like you and has no intention of making it easy. The country should have spent the last 2 years preparing for a clean break and no deal. Edited January 22, 2019 by aheadofthecurve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Pitty the people in those countries got their own ideas to Brexit from UK eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 7 hours ago, Peter Hun said: In fact Russia has annexed South Ossetia. It's now part of Russia, formerly Georgia. It's not been annexed. Officially they recognise it as an independent state while occupying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, yelims said: Pitty the people in those countries got their own ideas to Brexit from UK eh? I'll take that as you admitting defeat I've robustly defended against all of your points yet you have still dodged all of my points to you. Admit it son you're out of your depth with me. Edited January 22, 2019 by aheadofthecurve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said: The reason the tories allowed it is the same reason why so many are opposed to brexit - the EU represents a gravy train for MPs. They do not want to appear to be one that makes waves or it might threaten the big lobbying checks, the revolving door of MPs being employed in big EU firms for bureaucratic "favours" and the prospects of further employment in the EU parliament. MPs are incentivised to do whatever the EU wants. After brexit they will have no such incentive. That's ridiculous. MPs are elected to Westminster and don't get any additional perks as a result of the UK being in the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said: That's ridiculous. MPs are elected to Westminster and don't get any additional perks as a result of the UK being in the EU. Initially they are elected to Westminster but the EU government represents the next level up - a level up they can only achieve by 1) ensuring the EU exists (obviously) and 2) by ensuring they are seen as sympathetic to the EU. You get far more exposure to opportunities for cronyism within EU governmental roles than you can get in the UK government and that's exactly what most MPs are after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 1 minute ago, aheadofthecurve said: Initially they are elected to Westminster but the EU government represents the next level up - a level up they can only achieve by 1) ensuring the EU exists (obviously) and 2) by ensuring they are seen as sympathetic to the EU. You get far more exposure to opportunities for cronyism within EU governmental roles than you can get in the UK government and that's exactly what most MPs are after. That must explain sympathetic MEPs like Daniel Hannan, David Campbell Bannerman, and most famously Nigel Farage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: He's a nasty piece of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: That must explain sympathetic MEPs like Daniel Hannan, David Campbell Bannerman, and most famously Nigel Farage. They don't need to be sympathetic to be MEPs (currently) and you're being pretty disingenuous to suggest that my point was that they do - but I suspect you know that they aren't EU sympathisers and instead are relying on trying to be funny (and failing ) because you know deep down you're out of your depth with me too . They are however treated with utter disrespect in the EU parliament for no reason other than they do not wish to be part of it. Speaks very heavy volumes about the EU if you ask me. They do not enjoy any of the benefits of cronyism that a europhile MEP would. Edited January 22, 2019 by aheadofthecurve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 1 minute ago, aheadofthecurve said: They don't need to be sympathetic to be MEPs (currently) and you're being pretty disingenuous to suggest that they do - but I suspect you know that they aren't EU sympathisers and instead are relying on trying to be funny (and failing ) because you know deep down you're out of your depth with me too . They are however treated with utter disrespect in the EU parliament for no reason other than they do not wish to be part of it. Speaks very heavy volumes about the EU if you ask me. If they don't wish to be part of it, why do they go there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 So the ROI have thrown it back at the EU with a press release saying they won't accept a hard border and are making no plans for one (link in tweet at end). Given the WA has been overwhelmingly rejected by the UK parliament, I'm tempted to say it might be worth exploring a time limit, or some other means to make the deal more palatable? Feels like the EU has pushed ROI hard today. The ROI tough talking/no compromise always risked the no deal/hard border, but they're saying that can't happen. So which is it to be? Couple of days ago the WA looked dead as disco, but it staggers on. And if the backstop hassle is removed with a time limit or other fudge, all those MPs are going to have to stop pretending it was the backstop that put them off May's deal. And meanwhile the head of the OECD has played down the difficulty of WTO and says he's accepted Brexit and it's time to get on with leaving...Gruniad ref only... Ángel Gurría, the head of one of the west’s leading thinktanks and one of the most prominent supporters of remain during the EU referendum campaign, has said it is time to move on and ensure that Brexit is a success. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/23/oecd-chief-brexit-angel-gurria-uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Just now, thecrashingisles said: If they don't wish to be part of it, why do they go there? I guess you could ask them if you want a proper answer as I don't speak for them - no doubt the question has been asked of them before and exists out there via google. My guess is simply that it, begrudgingly, gives them a platform which they are taking full advantage of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said: He's a nasty piece of work. Actually I don’t mind Verhofstadt. You know exactly where he stands and what he believes in. I just want out of the USofE whilst we still have a narrow exit possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said: Actually I don’t mind Verhofstadt. You know exactly where he stands and what he believes in. I just want out of the USofE whilst we still have a narrow exit possibility. You could get a boat to Australia if you don't like the complexities of European politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Just now, GrizzlyDave said: Actually I don’t mind Verhofstadt. You know exactly where he stands and what he believes in. I just want out of the USofE whilst we still have a narrow exit possibility. He admirably fights for his own interests I'll give him that and you absolutely know his position on things. The problem is his position is squatting above us from a height, clenching with all his strength Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Just now, thecrashingisles said: You could get a boat to Australia if you don't like the complexities of European politics. You could jog on to France if you hate the UK so much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Just now, aheadofthecurve said: You could jog on to France if you hate the UK so much It's not me who is bringing about the break up of the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aheadofthecurve Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Just now, thecrashingisles said: It's not me who is bringing about the break up of the UK. He's not and neither are any brexiteers. You however want to remove the UK's sovereignty. That's already been established. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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