long time lurking Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) BREXIT means BREXIT is just a sound bite. All it really means is that at some stage she'll invoke article 50 and we'll leave the EU. The devil (as always) is in the details of exactly what our relationship with the EU will be afterwards My money is on BREXIT lite - we'll formally leave the EU but keep single market access and services passporting. Freedom of movement will stay (possibly with some negotiated restrictions based on whether prospective migrants have a job to go to in the UK). We'll also still have to "contribute" to running the EU - same as Norway etc As for reducing immigration, she also made the right noises about doing that at the home office. It didn't pan out though did it? She couldn't even get non-EU immigration down to the "tens of thousands" Correct but everyone then Knew she had noway of doing so because of "EU rules" i`m not saying she will have the will to do it now either, but this time round they will have no excuses the blame will lay at their feet ...anyone who thinks problems that took the best part of two decades to manifest will be sorted out within a few years are deluded ...i find it strange that it only seems to be those on the remain side that think everyone on the leave side are thinking this ...it must have something to do with their tea leaf reading abilities Edited July 13, 2016 by long time lurking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssKay Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Correct but everyone then Knew she had noway of doing so because of "EU rules" i`m not saying she will have the will to do it now either, but this time round they will have no excuses the blame will lay at their feet ...anyone who thinks problems that took the best part of two decades to manifest will be sorted out within a few years are deluded ...i find it strange that it only seems to be those on the remain side that think everyone on the leave side are thinking this ...it must have something to do with their tea leaf reading abilities Read what I wrote again. What did "EU rules" have to do with non-EU immigration? That was always under our control Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkincharge Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Hello there... http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/10-downing-street-fotos-die-cameron-ziehen-aus-may-kommt-fotostrecke-139332.html Bye-bye... http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/10-downing-street-fotos-die-cameron-ziehen-aus-may-kommt-fotostrecke-139332-4.html Why has the Queen got a handbag on her arm while meeting someone at her home. Is she on the way out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XswampyX Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Read what I wrote again. What did "EU rules" have to do with non-EU immigration? That was always under our control The appetite for cheap immigrant labor couldn't be satisfied by the EU immigrants who just walked in so they had to import more from outside the EU. Well that policy has changed.... If I was addicted to heroin I could get my methadone from the NHS but still might buy the real stuff from a dealer. In what way is giving up my drug habit going to increase my intake of either methadone or heroin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Read what I wrote again. What did "EU rules" have to do with non-EU immigration? That was always under our control Missed the non part ,but it`s the same argument ..none of the powers that be wanted to do it they may still think the same ...but they will be judged on it now, 17 million people have expressed their opinion ,,it`s still down to the government but they now know the importance of doing the job properly ..only time will tell and that`s years away It`s blatantly obvious just by listening to the rhetoric coming from every party that they now know they were all a million miles away from the electorate when it came to migration People write of UKIP yet they scared the Tories into the referendum, i`m pretty sure that fear has not gone away, UKIP have all the ammunition they need if theres any back sliding and the Tories know this,with Labour hitting the self destruct button there could be a hell of a lot of people looking for a good home for their X and team blue will be at the bottom of that list if they feck up their mandate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmelter Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36787931?SThisFB Ex-European Commission head Barroso goes to the Vampire squid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssKay Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Ok - I understand where you're coming from now. You think the Tories will be on notice now that they need to do something meaningful to limit immigration if they want to stay in power. I'm a bit more cynical than you. I think they'll keep making the right noises but when push comes to shove, and it's a choice between cutting immigration and damaging the economy by losing single market access, they'll choose the economy and soft peddle on immigration controls. As you say though - time will tell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Not so long ago, Cameron called UKIP 'closet racists' Bet he didn't realise then that it would end up with him being chucked out into the street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) Free movement is not a massive issue once we are out of the EU it would be simple enough to price out a very large percentage of that immigration Remove the right to all in and out of work benefits No free schooling or healthcare Mandatory health insurance ..one supplier the NHS ,,,academic rates relatively low manual work high this could be adjusted to suit any short falls in any industries and all could be made payable by the employer ...very high fines for any employer not complying RTI is already in place so this could be easily policed Every one are welcome Ok - I understand where you're coming from now.You think the Tories will be on notice now that they need to do something meaningful to limit immigration if they want to stay in power.I'm a bit more cynical than you. I think they'll keep making the right noises but when push comes to shove, and it's a choice between cutting immigration and damaging the economy by losing single market access, they'll choose the economy and soft peddle on immigration controls.As you say though - time will tell You may be right ,i`m not for one minute saying they won`t take that option ,but`s it`s already cost them their whole front bench ...the stakes are far higher now and they know it ,last time they thought they knew differently Edited July 13, 2016 by long time lurking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) Thank goodness for UKIP. Even if despite their 4 million votes they only got 1 seat in Parliament (they got many more seats in the european parliament though) at least they provide an independent voice in Britain which can be deployed if the negotiations fail to meet expectations and the British people are yet again expected to just take any old self serving deal to benefit the 1%, the corporates, the bankers, the polticos and other cronies etc. Prior to that British people had to rely on the voice of the LibLabCon for their information such as when the various treaties were being signed which increasingly and stealthily removed British sovereignty and the LibLabCon's message then was that there was no loss of sovereignty and the treaties were minor documents of no consequence. Maybe May will turn out to be a good Prime Minister for a change and not always intent on serving the usual VIs - time will tell and no doubt much will become clear very soon.. Edited July 14, 2016 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 These minor documents of no importance are apparently going to take 10 years to unravel. The utter, utter lying barstewards. I should like to go back a few hundred years, they didn't mess around with lying traitors then. Heads would have been on spikes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) What i canto get my head around is just about everyone on here would agree our housing market is a pyramid schem propped up by cheap money and scummy schemes and this is doing the country no good and it`s likely to end badly Yet our whole economy is being run on the same model ,a pyramid scheme propped up by cheap imported labor who are driving wages down to the lowest common denominator aided and abetted by our government, but people see this as a good thing and a benefit to our economy ...i just don`t get how some see one problem but not the other or are they just prepared to ignore the other Edited July 14, 2016 by long time lurking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDevil Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 What i canto get my head around is just about everyone on here would agree our housing market is a pyramid schem propped up by cheap money and scummy schemes and this is doing the country no good and it`s likely to end badly Yet our whole economy is being run on the same model ,a pyramid scheme propped up by cheap imported labor who are driving wages down to the lowest common denominator aided and abetted by our government, but people see this as a good thing and a benefit to our economy ...i just don`t get how some see one problem but not the other or are they just prepared to ignore the other Both policies are deliberate. Cheap money to prop up the housing ponzi and cheap labour to prop up the labour ponzi. What the politicians and we see is poles apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldbug9999 Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) Read what I wrote again. What did "EU rules" have to do with non-EU immigration? That was always under our control The tories only won the last election because they promised to have an EU referendum with the implication that if we went for brexit immigration would be dealt with. Their stance on immigration going forward will now depend on whether they think a tipping point has been reached where being tough on immigration will win more votes than it loses. Merely promising the referendum was a one time chance to get people on both side to vote for them, now they have to pick a side. Edited July 14, 2016 by goldbug9999 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsby Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Why has the Queen got a handbag on her arm while meeting someone at her home. Is she on the way out? It is rather a large home though... "now where did I put my reading glasses down?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectrumFX Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 What i canto get my head around is just about everyone on here would agree our housing market is a pyramid schem propped up by cheap money and scummy schemes and this is doing the country no good and it`s likely to end badly Yet our whole economy is being run on the same model ,a pyramid scheme propped up by cheap imported labor who are driving wages down to the lowest common denominator aided and abetted by our government, but people see this as a good thing and a benefit to our economy ...i just don`t get how some see one problem but not the other or are they just prepared to ignore the other To be blunt, I think that there's a bit of opinion shaping going on. People seem to be joining the site just to tell us that Brexit will need to happen in name only, and that we had better put up with that because "the economy". I'm utterly amazed that people are still caught up in this "no more boom or bust" rhetoric. Yes, the economy will crash. If not now, then at some point in the future. It's inevitable. Bulls, bears, credit cycles etc. so what? That's what happens. Pretending otherwise is just plain stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverfinger Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) Why has the Queen got a handbag on her arm while meeting someone at her home. Is she on the way out? People, who do not "amuse" her, will get whacked with it. Edited July 14, 2016 by Silverfinger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) To be blunt, I think that there's a bit of opinion shaping going on. People seem to be joining the site just to tell us that Brexit will need to happen in name only, and that we had better put up with that because "the economy". I'm utterly amazed that people are still caught up in this "no more boom or bust" rhetoric. Yes, the economy will crash. If not now, then at some point in the future. It's inevitable. Bulls, bears, credit cycles etc. so what? That's what happens. Pretending otherwise is just plain stupid. So why are such stupid policies persued then? Extreme short-termism or "I'm all right jack and when it explodes it won't be on my watch"? Or genuinely being blind to the problems? Edited July 14, 2016 by Riedquat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectrumFX Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) So why are such stupid policies persued then? Extreme short-termism or "I'm all right jack and when it explodes it won't be on my watch"? Or genuinely being blind to the problems?I think it's all of that. We seem to have two types of politician. The self serving pragmatist, who pursues whatever policies are in their short term self interest and the utter ******ing lunatic (Brown as an example) who are locked into some sort of ideological struggle against reality.Add in powerful vested interests constantly lobbying for more protection and opportunities for rent seeking and there you go. Edit to add: I don't think any politician ever has been elected on a ticket of "recessions are inevitable, suck it up". Edited July 14, 2016 by SpectrumFX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeTrader Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) Guardian live blog has linked to a piece on Conservative Home written by David Davis on Monday giving his thoughts on the UK's exit strategy. Obviously this takes on new importance now that he has been appointed as Secretary of State for Brexit. Trade deals. Tax cuts. And taking time before triggering Article 50. A Brexit economic strategy for Britain Edited July 14, 2016 by FreeTrader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nome Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 So why are such stupid policies persued then? Extreme short-termism or "I'm all right jack and when it explodes it won't be on my watch"? Or genuinely being blind to the problems? I'd say definitely no.2 ... "as long as it doesn't happen on my watch" I just find it impossible to believe that tptb can be that blind and stupid to simply not realise what kind of trouble we're in and how current economic policy is just making it worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 I'd say definitely no.2 ... "as long as it doesn't happen on my watch" I just find it impossible to believe that tptb can be that blind and stupid to simply not realise what kind of trouble we're in and how current economic policy is just making it worse. It's certainly very tempting to think that, to the extent that I wonder if that's just too easy an answer. We seem to prefer thinking that problems are caused by powerful figures screwing things up for their own ends rather than simply through incompetence. However these people are still human (yes, I know it's hard to believe) and accepting the conventional wisdom - which this all seems to have become, is quite a strong human trait. Edit to add: I don't think any politician ever has been elected on a ticket of "recessions are inevitable, suck it up". Certainly the case, but if they really believed that they'd not say it but would try to work within it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenpig Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) We do seem to have a bit of a lucky break. The whole ship was a bit rudderless after brexit, and there's just something weirdly efficient looking and confidence restoring about the new cabinet. It's been so unexpected, it even seems to have shut up all the numerically challenged doom mongers, for the moment anyway. edit, I am a doom monger myself, but not because of brexit. Edited July 14, 2016 by Steppenpig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssKay Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Guardian live blog has linked to a piece on Conservative Home written by David Davies on Monday giving his thoughts on the UK's exit strategy. Obviously this takes on new importance now that he has been appointed as Secretary of State for Brexit. Trade deals. Tax cuts. And taking time before triggering Article 50. A Brexit economic strategy for Britain Thanks for the link - an interesting read and he talks a lot of sense. I've always had a lot of time for David Davis - seems like a genuinely decent bloke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Why has the Queen got a handbag on her arm while meeting someone at her home. Is she on the way out? Don'tcha love the way the way the "Palace" only releases one photo of TM meeting the Queen and it's a photo of TM in full curtsy. Just the Queen's way of saying, "Hello 13th Prime Minister of mine; it's probably not worth me remembering your name." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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