Btl King And Queen Wilsons Are Selling Up --- Merged Threads

[onlyme2]

Are they actually going to go bust or what? There have been several near misses but they never seem to actually go under. Anyway sadly I think they will survive, their pensions are bulletproof, right. They seem miserable and tight fisted so it is not as though they need the money to maintain their lifestyle.

The bankrupt of england bailed them out.

Shows where this country's priorities lie.

[Eddie_George]

Are they actually going to go bust or what? There have been several near misses but they never seem to actually go under. Anyway sadly I think they will survive, their pensions are bulletproof, right. They seem miserable and tight fisted so it is not as though they need the money to maintain their lifestyle.

Too big to fail. (Fergus anyway).

[Fromage Frais]

Sounds like the banks know this is a boomlet before the rates rise.

As many have said on here before banks love to be tolerant when the portfolio is xx% under water but when the asset rises a bit they put the pressure back on.

What would you guys want to take all these small units off their hands? XX%+ at least you would think as you have to have staff/managing agents to look after it all.

[Venger]

I think the For Sale is for his wife.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2689387/They-pocket-90m-building-empire-900-homes-Baron-Baroness-Buy-Let-grump.html

That's not a photoshop?

So this sale of houses around Ashford way doesn't appear to have a rush of eager buyers instructing and working matters through with their com-property solicitors, competiting to pay top whack for a batch of houses dotted around Ashford.

She won’t need £90 million to do that. How will they spend it?

‘I won’t believe we’ve got it until it’s in the bank, so let’s just wait,’ Mrs Wilson retorts, with characteristic caution.

[Wurzel Of Highbridge]

Better to be poor and happy than rich and miserable too.

funny you should say that. My partents split when I was 10, my father is happy and pennyless (on benifits) and my mother is a 'misrible miser' (wilson like) millionaire.

I know which I would rather by if the choice was black and white.

[Venger]

I've got a good fix on that house (although perhaps not as they all look very similar) with magnification from another road, for Streetview doesn't go down it. Surprised they even allow cars on it - looks more like a pedestrian path access.

Also I can't find any data for it; can't even work out house number.

I think the For Sale is for his wife.

I've also forgotten how to give streetview link... lodge wood drive, but a section of it where streetview doesn't go, off Forest Ave

[Dorkins]

You are the streetview master Venger! How do you do it?

[Eddie_George]

I'm surprised that I'm the first!

[winkie]

Anyone can buy anything....all they need is a bank to pay for it whilst the sun is shining and a bank to take it away when it starts to rain....no degree or intelligence required.

[Eddie_George]

Here's a template to save you guys the trouble:

Make us laugh!

[Ah-so]

This portfolio has been for sale for since 2008. Every year the awful Wilsons pop up to announce they are selling, but the buyer never materialises. Why? Because the price they want is far in excess of what an institutional investor will pay.The investor is basing his price on the equivalent annuity rate of the investments, versus the risk of losing money if property values fall. Rental yields are currently 5%, which is not very high. He wants to sell based on the market price for the individual properties. Investors will value this as a business and judge its value accordingly.

Once the value is adjusted, there may be very little profit left indeed.

The Wilsons say that they do not want the hassle any more, then why not employ professional managers to run the business or even float it on AIM? They could step back and enjoy the income stream. The have not because the figures do not stack up.

[SNACR]

Having read that DM article.I think we are on the cusp of BTLers being universally portrayed as figures of fun and maligned in the media. Wouldn't be surprised to find some new Audi model being reviewed and described as the only people that would want one would be a BTL landlord.

Like footballers, whose wages are tolerated because the proles can fantasise about being one themselves, BTL has continued because a lot of the population would have liked to be into it too. Now that's out of reach they won't be tolerated any longer as a group.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

This portfolio has been for sale for since 2008. Every year the awful Wilsons pop up to announce they are selling, but the buyer never materialises. Why? Because the price they want is far in excess of what an institutional investor will pay.The investor is basing his price on the equivalent annuity rate of the investments, versus the risk of losing money if property values fall. Rental yields are currently 5%, which is not very high. He wants to sell based on the market price for the individual properties. Investors will value this as a business and judge its value accordingly.

Once the value is adjusted, there may be very little profit left indeed.

The Wilsons say that they do not want the hassle any more, then why not employ professional managers to run the business or even float it on AIM? They could step back and enjoy the income stream. The have not because the figures do not stack up.

I suspect a big part of the reason it hasn't sold is that it isn't actually a business in the conventional sense. The properties are all individually owned by members of the Wilson family rather than by a limited company. Anyone buying them will have to conveyance 1000 separate houses with all the cost (including stamp duty) that entails. I really can't see why anyone with that kind of money would be prepared to buy into that mess.

[Venger]

Are they actually going to go bust or what? There have been several near misses but they never seem to actually go under. Anyway sadly I think they will survive, their pensions are bulletproof, right. They seem miserable and tight fisted so it is not as though they need the money to maintain their lifestyle.

Do you get big bulletproof teacher pensions when you've packed it in years ago?

Gullands Solicitors blog, 2010 (via Wayback Machine) -

The two former maths teachers have amassed their wealth over a relatively short period, Judith investing her teacher’s pension fund in their first semi-detached house.

https://web.archive.org/web/20100407013412/http://www.gullands.com/news/view/129/Buy-to-Let-millionaires-Choose-Gullands

[Venger]

You are the streetview master Venger! How do you do it?

Oops - I saw a house of a very similar look, with a white finish, and sloping tiled porch, up for sale, and then just had a look around that area on Streetview.

[Venger]

I think they're not desperate for money either - although I'll keep some hope out they don't find the buyer they need, and their lenders have costs to apply, and HPC proper comes along.

It's only worth what someone will pay, and I've seen a few example sales in Ashford with recent sales only slightly above 2004 sold prices. Hilarious seeing them with that sign.

Possibly not desperate for money, for why else would you give notice to someone, to put the property back on the market, incurring void days, to up the rent - when you already had a good paying tenant at £695pcm.

Although apparently he told his tenant he wanted to sell up, thus reason for giving notice???

He cites the Guardian, which ran a story about one of its IT staff who claims he was summarily evicted by the Wilsons for daring to complain about a broken boiler. (Mr Wilson says he wanted him out to raise the rent.)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2689387/They-pocket-90m-building-empire-900-homes-Baron-Baroness-Buy-Let-grump.html

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/may/02/tenant-evicted-hot-water-landlord-wilson

That guy brought a case against his landlord/Wilson, but even though I sympathise with him, position seemed hopeless for him, and he lost and had to pay the landlord's costs.

Update story: http://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2014/jul/05/change-law-on-renting-and-evictions

Edited July 13, 2014 by Venger

[JPJPJP]

Some good points made here already. In particular

- Lender(s) unlikely to want the hassle of running rentals / dealing with the tenants and, therefore, very unlikely to foreclose / reposses except as a last resort. As long as sufficient payments are being made by The Wilsons, the lender will sit tight. I expect this would even apply if the portfolio was in negative equity. What wealth do The Wilsons have outside the portfolio that the lender(s) could chase to cover any losses incurred in extracting itself from the deal?

- Valuation by F&J on basis of the current market value of each individual house, brought to market in tip top order and properly marketed one at a time

versus

- Valuation by potential buyers on a pure yield minus (potential) risk basis

That gap could be huge. £200k per unit by F&J versus half that by a potential buyer

- Structure of ownership not conducive to a one off sale of the whole portfolio: maybe even as bad as needing to buy each individual house separately with conveyancing and stamp duty (at F&J's valuations anyway) rather than a simple purchase of the shares of the company that owns the property (and maybe another that deals with the lettings).

Of course The Wilsons could restructure to package the portfolio for a one off sale, or even a flotation, or to be run as a separate business. But that would cost £££ and one might expect the lender(s) to get very twitchy about such monies being spent or the merest sniff of limited liability coming anywhere near the whole thing.

So, given the publicity they are seeking, my own thoughts are that F&J do have a desire to sell up and pocket £250m - and who can blame them for that? But that figure is a total pipe dream and they are under pressure from their lenders to reduce the debt levels across the portfolio.

Now that there has been a 5/6 year period of generally increasing house prices, maybe the lenders think that now might be the best time for F&J to be encouraged to sell up. Particularly as 'interest rates are going to rise soon.' The lender(s), of course, only want what they are owed, they don't expect to make a capital profit from the loans, but they wouldn't want a forced sale in a negative equity scenario - whether F&J come out of it with £250m, or not quite enough to even pay their bus fares back from the solicitor's office where the deal is signed, is of no consequence to any other party to the deal really.

That said, it would be nice that F&J made enough out of any exit that they didn't become a burden on the state in their dotage

[The Preacherman]

Any HPCers in Kent fancy doing a bit of tyre kicking and asking Fergus to see the books?

[John The Pessimist]

That said, it would be nice that F&J made enough out of any exit that they didn't become a burden on the state in their dotage

The Wilsons are the poster child(ren) of BTL. It would be better for all that they come out of this with nothing but the plaid jackets they're wearing on their backs. Let their fall from grace be complete and let it be public.

We want every amateur BTL slumlord to realise their wealth is illusory. Then, and only then, will they head for the exits.... The Wilsons must lose everything to 'encourageur les autres'.

Edit spelling

Edited July 13, 2014 by John The Pessimist

[Bruce Banner]

The Wilsons are the poster child(ren) of BTL. It would be better for all that they come out of this with nothing but the plaid jackets they're wearing on their backs. Let their fall from grace be complete and let it be public.

We want every amateur BTL slumlord to realise their wealth is illusory. Then, and only then, will they head for the exits.... The Wisons must lose everything to 'encourageur les autres'.

Yes, all the while they get bailed out, by government engineered HPI, low interest rates and forbearance, it continues to give the wrong signal to those that would follow them.

This is a high profile couple who seem to actively encourage publicity, let the next publicity be about their downfall.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Bruce Banner

[chronyx]

Giving them enough rope to hang themselves?

[Bruce Banner]

Giving them enough rope to hang themselves?

Possibly, it's not as though they're a particularly likeable couple so could probably be made an example of without causing a public outcry.

[wherebee]

Possibly, it's not as though they're a particularly likeable couple so could probably be made an example of without causing a public outcry.

This is very true.

I could see a future reality path in which a serious buyer does due diligence, and then withdraws after a full analysis shows how overvalued the assets are and how undervalued the liabilities (including proper repairs/legal insurance etc) are. If that then got leaked..........

[Oh Well :(]

Just unbelievable that any financial institution was stupid enough to lend so much to this pair. I wonder how much commission and bonus was paid out to financial advisers and mortgage brokers?

I think that the morons at Bradford and Bingley carried a large part of their debt.

Once again I can't really believe it! But this is why bankers are paid such large salaries because they are specially gifted individuals and the rest of us mere mortals are not clever enough (dishonest) to do the job!

Edited July 13, 2014 by Oh Well :(

[Habeas Domus]

They started building this property empire in 1992, so their oldest houses are now at that point where everything starts to fail - new doors/windows, new central heating, new bathroom and kitchen, multiply that by hundreds of houses and it starts to be serious money.