Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

All of that, literally, every single word of that, for me.  Thanks, I appreciate it.

You really should look up irony HY, as its acutely funny watching you struggle with it.

Maybe the lizards really are in control...

 That was an Ad Hominem derived Ad Hominem - true! Irony upon Irony.

But really, this is just a chat forum.

 

[HairyOb1]

Just now, highYield said:

 That was an Ad Hominem derived Ad Hominem - true! Irony upon Irony.

But really, this is just a chat forum.

I think we're both pouring it out as you say, but hey, why not  However, look at ccc's comments to that chap first.  He seemingly comes out with these accusations at will, seems to want to leave, but can't and constantly spouts racist nonsense.  Look at his insistence on the use of absolute literals too. I think he has issues, genuinely.

It is just a forum, but if one person is changed by anything I have presented as 'evidence', then I'm happy.  I do think even on this forum, the tide has changed, for even the most die hard brexiteer has given up the ghost in defending the indefensible and for me, that's proving we're either getting through to them, they're slowly realise the cockmonstery of it all, or that they've given up bothering to argue.

I'm happy with all 3 of those.

[HairyOb1]

...and if you're not convinced at all that this is a clear bonfire of regulations, The Brexit Withdrawal Bill is now removing the EU stipulation that animals are sentient beings, in that they can feel pain and suffering.

Deeply concerning to be honest, means they can reduce regulation on farms, abattoirs, to create more profit at the expense of animal welfare.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, HairyOb1 said:

I think we're both pouring it out as you say, but hey, why not  However, look at ccc's comments to that chap first.  He seemingly comes out with these accusations at will, seems to want to leave, but can't and constantly spouts racist nonsense.  Look at his insistence on the use of absolute literals too. I think he has issues, genuinely.

It is just a forum, but if one person is changed by anything I have presented as 'evidence', then I'm happy.  I do think even on this forum, the tide has changed, for even the most die hard brexiteer has given up the ghost in defending the indefensible and for me, that's proving we're either getting through to them, they're slowly realise the cockmonstery of it all, or that they've given up bothering to argue.

I'm happy with all 3 of those.

My viewpoint has been changed by your many evidence and fact based posts - which are a great contribution to the thread.

Ad homs and insults aren't necessary.

I'll try and stop mine.

 

[HairyOb1]

Just now, highYield said:

My viewpoint has been changed by your many evidence and fact based posts - which are a great contribution to the thread.

Ad homs and insults aren't necessary.

I'll try and stop mine.

I'll try and stop mine too as well, it doesn't benefit the discussion, agreed.

[Sheeple Splinter]

On 20/11/2017 at 2:53 PM, jonb2 said:

I've read that Sheeple and 100% agree with it.

As you may know from my previous posts - I see the US tech companies in association with Wall Street as an existential threat to our daily lives. The tech CEO's are dangerous as none of them have any idea or conscience about their affecting society. It's just a God-ship ring with the almighty dollar idolising their altars. This view plays a big part in my preferring the EU to the US as a culture.

I think they are just one of many threats discussed on threads hereabouts.

The Panama and Paradise papers exposed European as well as US companies & individuals, Luxembourg and Ireland refusal over tax changes, shell companies in Lux., Junker and LuxLeaks, German car cartels, dieselgate and:

Quote

Dutch PM defends tax cut seen benefiting Shell, Unilever, UK investors

...“This is about jobs,” Rutte said of the tax cut, after acknowledging protesters in the public gallery.

“It’s important that we have a strong industry made up of a rich tapestry of small businesses, mid-size businesses, but also large companies ...that we know are very important for jobs.”

According to Statistics Netherlands, Anglo-Dutch Royal Dutch Shell and Unilever and other multinationals account for more than 2 million jobs, or about 40 percent of all employment, in the country of 17 million people.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-netherlands-tax/dutch-pm-defends-tax-cut-seen-benefiting-shell-unilever-uk-investors-idUSKBN1DF2HQ

[dugsbody]

3 hours ago, dryrot said:

I sympathise. The catastrophe that hit the UK fishing industry is a clear part of our EU membership - Heath handed over our fishing rights to the EU.

What I find ridiculous on this thread is that Remainers consiistently choose the most absurd arguments to "bolster" their case. If I wanted to argue for EU membership, I would choose something like centralisation of decision making; one continent-wide country, free trade, and so on. (There must be some!  :)) To choose fishing as a UK bonus is risible. Its like trying to excuse our fiscal contribution

I'll bite. I completely excuse and am happy with our fiscal contribution. This topic has been covered multiple times on this thread and yet you still don't get it. There are very sound economic and social reasons to redistribute income. We do it in the UK where London subsidises most of the other regions (probably not enough in my opinion). And we benefit by doing the same in the EU. A strong Slovenia for example grows wealthy and generates further revenue for the UK when they by our high tech products and services. 

As for the fishing argument, the reason remainers take part (I don't because I know nothing about the industry, and suspect most of you don't either) is because it is brought up time and again by the brexiters as yet another stick to beat the EU with, mostly using hyperbole.

[Sheeple Splinter]

 

Quote

Stop Brexit from happening, German business leaders tell the EU...

.

.

...“We need Britain as a counterweight to Juncker and Barnier, and the people who want a ’United States of Europe’. We don’t want that, we want an EU of sovereign nations.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/20/stop-brexit-happening-german-business-leaders-tell-eu/

 

[dugsbody]

2 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

...and if you're not convinced at all that this is a clear bonfire of regulations, The Brexit Withdrawal Bill is now removing the EU stipulation that animals are sentient beings, in that they can feel pain and suffering.

Deeply concerning to be honest, means they can reduce regulation on farms, abattoirs, to create more profit at the expense of animal welfare.

This is an article from the independent who in my opinion made a conscious decision that since the daily mail hate rag exists and isn't going anywhere, they were going to play the opposite role. I can see why they would do that, as they understand that hyperbole and emotive articles can sway public opinion, but it does make me slightly distrust using them as a source.

However, if the above is true, it is just another disgusting aspect of our brexiteer championing Tories. Is anyone able to do my research for me and verify this is indeed what the case or has the independent sensationalised it?

[HairyOb1]

5 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

This is an article from the independent who in my opinion made a conscious decision that since the daily mail hate rag exists and isn't going anywhere, they were going to play the opposite role. I can see why they would do that, as they understand that hyperbole and emotive articles can sway public opinion, but it does make me slightly distrust using them as a source.

However, if the above is true, it is just another disgusting aspect of our brexiteer championing Tories. Is anyone able to do my research for me and verify this is indeed what the case or has the independent sensationalised it?

They've removed the clause in the laws that all animals are 'sentient beings', saying only pets are.

It opens the doors for deregulating the entire food production system.

The House of Commons has voted against transferring an EU clause which recognizes 'animal sentience' into domestic law - leading some to fear animals could become 'collateral damage' after Brexit.

The amendment - clause 30 [NC30] - was submitted by Green MP Caroline Lucas. She wanted to transfer EU protocol set out in Article 13 of Title II of the Lisbon Treaty.

But the move was rejected by a slim majority of 18 for the Government - only 295 were in favor, with 313 against.

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by HairyOb1

[onlooker]

12 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

I'll bite. I completely excuse and am happy with our fiscal contribution. This topic has been covered multiple times on this thread and yet you still don't get it. There are very sound economic and social reasons to redistribute income. We do it in the UK where London subsidises most of the other regions (probably not enough in my opinion). And we benefit by doing the same in the EU. A strong Slovenia for example grows wealthy and generates further revenue for the UK when they by our high tech products and services. 

As for the fishing argument, the reason remainers take part (I don't because I know nothing about the industry, and suspect most of you don't either) is because it is brought up time and again by the brexiters as yet another stick to beat the EU with, mostly using hyperbole.

We send money to Brussels, who take a bit, and then send the rest to countries like Slovenia, which you think is admirable because Slovenia buys stuff from us. Except Slovenia sells $575MM of stuff to us every year (ttps://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/svn/#Imports), but we sell only $440MM of stuff to them. Most of the other EU countries are the same.

We subsidize them with direct bungs, and also with our trade imbalance. It is not sustainable, and British workers have called a halt via the referendum.

[dugsbody]

1 minute ago, onlooker said:

We send money to Brussels, who take a bit, and then send the rest to countries like Slovenia, which you think is admirable because Slovenia buys stuff from us. Except Slovenia sells $575MM of stuff to us every year (ttps://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/svn/#Imports), but we sell only $440MM of stuff to them. Most of the other EU countries are the same.

We subsidize them with direct bungs, and also with our trade imbalance. It is not sustainable, and British workers have called a halt via the referendum.

You're misrepresenting the situation and using the trade imbalance to justify views that you formed regardless. If the trade imbalance (does it include services btw?) was the other way, you'd still be a brexiter and you'd be saying something different, but still justifying brexit. 

What is the trade imbalance of London with the rest fo the UK? 

[rollover]

Quote

EU and UK aim to strike Brexit divorce deal within 3 weeks FT

Does anyone know, what the bookies betting odds are?

[ExiledMatty]

11 hours ago, Futuroid said:

And what is your timescale for this? UK citizens have only had the right to live and work elsewhere in the EU since 1992. There were tens of thousands going to Australia and NZ (the "Ten Pound Poms") from 1947 on. These are ex colonies of the UK for goodness sake!

P.S. Only 2.8% of the total EU population are resident in a member state other than the one that issued their passport.

Let me help you here as it sounds like you struggle with basic stuff. This is showing expats e.g. people that are alive now and living in other countries.

We have free movement to the EU and it's no way easy to emigrate to the Aus, NZ and Canada, but still more Brits choose these commonwealth countries.

This is why losing free movement to the EU is no big deal. The EU will still take our pensioners and those looking for extended holidays and travel. The number of Brits that actually work in the EU is relatively small. If they have half a brain and are skilled then I'm sure Brexit won't impact them anyway.

[ExiledMatty]

11 hours ago, jonb2 said:

Yup, not going to get any better - hard Brexit will cost the average family £11k to 2030

https://economics.rabobank.com/publications/2017/october/the-permanent-damage-of-brexit/

 

Excellent news.

We may have a HPC after all

Get out of Sterling while you can!

[OnionTerror]

6 minutes ago, rollover said:

Does anyone know, what the bookies betting odds are?

Unless the UK can come up with a solution regarding the NI border, its all meaningless.

[onlooker]

10 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

You're misrepresenting the situation and using the trade imbalance to justify views that you formed regardless. If the trade imbalance (does it include services btw?) was the other way, you'd still be a brexiter and you'd be saying something different, but still justifying brexit. 

What is the trade imbalance of London with the rest fo the UK? 

I present hard data, you have not. It is as simple as that.

Our trade imbalance with the rest of the EU (including services) has persisted since we joined, and shows no sign of being balanced. We are living beyond our means and it will not be sustainable. It is verging on criminal to be sending money to Brussels when we are impoverishing ourselves at home. Do you need more of an explanation?

[Silverfinger]

So, say, Britain will not pay the 100bn it owes to the EU, but just some meager 40% of that.I would expect draconian sanctions and tariffs put forward straightaway, because the EU taxpayer would demand something like that. I mean, Britain would become something like Iran or North Korea if they try to screw us out of 60bn or so, no?

Edit: I mean, clearly, either Britain will pay whatever the EU says, or there is going to be a trade war of sorts. Anything else Look like a sick joke to the EU’s Joe Sixpacks.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Silverfinger

[rollover]

7 minutes ago, Silverfinger said:

So, say, Britain will not pay the 100bn it owes to the EU, but just some meager 40% of that.I would expect draconian sanctions and tariffs put forward straightaway, because the EU taxpayer would demand something like that. I mean, Britain would become something like Iran or North Korea if they try to screw us out of 60bn or so, no?

Edit: I mean, clearly, either Britain will pay whatever the EU says, or there is going to be a trade war of sorts. Anything else would be a sick joke for the EU’s Joe Sixpacks.

Why to put extra tariffs? EU will just move business to EU or they move there on their own anyway.

[Silverfinger]

1 minute ago, rollover said:

Why to put extra tariffs? EU will just move business to EU or they move there on their own anyway.

I suppose there would have to be some sort of explicit punishment, if you know what I mean.

[pig]

26 minutes ago, Silverfinger said:

I suppose there would have to be some sort of explicit punishment, if you know what I mean.

You’d have thought Brexiters in government was enough punishment for the country.

[Sheeple Splinter]

5 hours ago, highYield said:

Why is it that the vast majority of ad hominems and insults (talking in general) in the Brexit debate come from remainers?

Because they have graduated beyond using discourse and logic. You may recall the discussions upthread regarding common sense, intelligence and graduates degree holders.

5 hours ago, Futuroid said:

1. Probably because there are so many more of them than the Quitters these days. 

2. Plenty of ad hom attacks on me and other Remainers earlier in this thread. Back when it was a red, white and blue Brexit and "we won, get over it" was still a popular catchphrase.

1. 85% of UK citizens voted for parties supporting a hard, chewy or soft Brexit, in June 2017. 

2. You are confusing grief counselling with ad homs, mofo. 

[Sheeple Splinter]

5 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

5 hours ago, kzb said:

I'm only reporting what I heard on the BBC.  Watch it for yourself, then tell me I made it all up. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/schedules/bbcparliament/20171119

I am utterly sure you didn't make it up, but I am sure you've interpreted it in a way that suits your narrative.  It makes no sense at all, that if it is going to be all gravy, that the citizens of Grimsby and Cornwall are all up in arms about the post brexit effect on their areas as per fishing industry.  I don't make this up, it's a commonly known issue.

  You are making that up! 

Best to read the article rather than just the headline. 

[Peter Hun]

1 hour ago, ExiledMatty said:

Excellent news.

We may have a HPC after all

Get out of Sterling while you can!

See, this is the purpose of Brexit; ****** the UK economy so foreigners/Brixshits can screw the British.

[Peter Hun]

9 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Well it does support more than 230,000 mainly highly paid jobs, with on some estimates clearing as a whole contributing  4% of GDP so rather (say 50 times) more important than fishing.  

You are missing a trick. After Brexit there will be so little industry left that the 0.08% of TODAYS GDP will be massively significant in our fantasy Unicorn world.