Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Riedquat]

35 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I see, so Brexit was in fact a vote for us to get poorer. Education, health and security worse. But at least we can burn sovereign tea on the fire to keep us warm.

Doubt we'll be able to afford cake as it will only do for the Marie Antionettes that make up the Tory party. I remind you of the source of the quote. Like Turkey, trade deals and £350 billion.

We're not getting poorer, and as I've pointed out numerous times I'm not too concerned if we are, as long as it's not a very big drop it really won't matter. Education, health, security getting worse? They've been getting worse for years despite massive increase in spending. See my post the other day about spending per pupil having doubled, most of that since 2000. Britain doesn't lack wealth, it lacks the ability to use its wealth wisely. The idea that going back to where we were a few years ago is terrible is laughable. You lot really haven't come up with anything to be concerned about other than "waaah, the number isn't what I want, got to keep racing ahead otherwise we're going backwards!" If I gave you £100 you'd panic if you'd be saying it's awful if you lost 50p of it down the back of the sofa.

Even the revised forecast didn't have negatives in it. If it does cause problems it'll only be because of large numbers of fools utterly over-reacting by treating smaller positives as huge negatives.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Riedquat

[Riedquat]

39 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Which direction are those growth forecasts going though RQ?  Are they improving, or getting worse.

I'll go and get a cup of tea while you fathom out a positive from this all...

Forecasts are irrelevent, it's forecasts of forecasts that matter?
 

[Futuroid]

11 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

We're not getting poorer, and as I've pointed out numerous times I'm not too concerned if we are, as long as it's not a very big drop it really won't matter. Education, health, security getting worse?

https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/now-schools-are-asking-parents-pay-toilet-paper

"Parents are being asked to pay for the most basic of items for their child’s school – including toilet paper – to help with the funding squeeze, a new survey has revealed.  

Nearly a third of parents have been asked to supply teaching equipment like stationery and books – and almost a fifth have been asked to provide essentials like toilet paper, a PTA UK survey has found."

[jonb2]

19 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

We're not getting poorer, and as I've pointed out numerous times I'm not too concerned if we are, as long as it's not a very big drop it really won't matter. Education, health, security getting worse? They've been getting worse for years despite massive increase in spending. See my post the other day about spending per pupil having doubled, most of that since 2000. Britain doesn't lack wealth, it lacks the ability to use its wealth wisely. The idea that going back to where we were a few years ago is terrible is laughable. You lot really haven't come up with anything to be concerned about other than "waaah, the number isn't what I want, got to keep racing ahead otherwise we're going backwards!" If I gave you £100 you'd panic if you'd be saying it's awful if you lost 50p of it down the back of the sofa.

Even the revised forecast didn't have negatives in it. If it does cause problems it'll only be because of large numbers of fools utterly over-reacting by treating smaller positives as huge negatives.

We have indeed been getting poorer. But now we are going to get even more poor. And there are consequences:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/nov/20/five-a-day-eating-targets-will-be-unaffordable-for-millions-after-brexit?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews#link_time=1511142062

I take and agree with your point of unnecessary consumption - but have a look at this from the states - which we mirror in a lot of ways:

And you will see the problem - cheap shit really is cheap - but the necessities keep on rising. So IMO you need to separate the necessary and the unnecessary in your critique.

 

[Riedquat]

22 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/now-schools-are-asking-parents-pay-toilet-paper

"Parents are being asked to pay for the most basic of items for their child’s school – including toilet paper – to help with the funding squeeze, a new survey has revealed.  

Nearly a third of parents have been asked to supply teaching equipment like stationery and books – and almost a fifth have been asked to provide essentials like toilet paper, a PTA UK survey has found."

Yet the spend per pupil, inflation adjusted, has increased massively in the last decade or two. So I'm inclined to look beyond "we need more money" to what's actually going on here. jonb's graph above is interesting. Why have textbooks shot up so much? Saying "we need more money", or even "a slower rate of increase in money will be a disaster" sounds like it's looking at the symptoms instead of the disease. It's where my assumption that the problem with the UK isn't a lack of wealth but a lack of using it wisely comes from. What's gone wrong if doing the same thing gets more and more expensive? I don't know, but I expect a lot of people calling for more cash don't either. But when you throw money at something and you've failed to identify the root cause of the issue you're likely as not squandering it, and you end up with the type of mentality that thinks HTB is a good answer to expensive houses.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Riedquat

[Sheeple Splinter]

22 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

...

I am utterly sure you didn't make it up, but I am sure you've interpreted it in a way that suits your narrative.  It makes no sense at all, that if it is going to be all gravy, that the citizens of Grimsby and Cornwall are all up in arms about the post brexit effect on their areas as per fishing industry.  I don't make this up, it's a commonly known issue.

 

16 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

  You are making that up! 

Best to read the article rather than just the headline. 

 

9 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

No I am not buddy, the fishermen of cornwall are crowing on about how much subsidies they'll lose post brexit and are urging the UK government to continue them.

Grimsby, but the other day, asked for special dispensations.

And the last line?  Well, I guess it's comical levels of irony here that that one quite mild...

 Fallacious assertions not based on any of the articles and you are already slithering on Grimsby from your first post. 

All you needed to do is highlight the link to the, "...that the citizens of Grimsby and Cornwall are all up in arms..." in any of the posted articles upthread.

Obviously, you can't so, as Trump would say:

 

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

2 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Yet the spend per pupil, inflation adjusted, has increased massively in the last decade or two. So I'm inclined to look beyond "we need more money" to what's actually going on here. jonb's graph above is interesting. Why have textbooks shot up so much? Saying "we need more money", or even "a slower rate of increase in money will be a disaster" sounds like it's looking at the symptoms instead of the disease. It's where my assumption that the problem with the UK isn't a lack of wealth but a lack of using it wisely comes from. What's gone wrong if doing the same thing gets more and more expensive? I don't know, but I expect a lot of people calling for more cash don't either. But when you throw money at something and you've failed to identify the root cause of the issue you're likely as not squandering it.

Back in the day textbooks would only last 5 years or so as they were passed from child to child.

With the new information age you would have thought books (pdf files) would be cheaper.

[rollover]

Quote

Philip Hammond had a chance to excite the nation about Brexit, but he blew it Telegraph

Another opportunity to make Brexit success missed.

[Sheeple Splinter]

9 hours ago, dugsbody said:

17 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

I thought this was a balanced article:

1. I honestly don't care. There are a lot of angles to brexit, I'll leave it to you guys to research the fishing industry to death and go round in circles about it. 2. Strikes me as yet another pick a side, find evidence to support your side, then never give up.

1. Fair enough and agreed on the wide range of issues.

2.  Strikes me that you did not read the article or my post above.

[longgone]

3 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

Back in the day textbooks would only last 5 years or so as they were passed from child to child.

With the new information age you would have thought books (pdf files) would be cheaper.

i am sure in hundreds of years the kids will have some kind of usb port on the back of their head where education can be uploaded. matrix style. 

[HairyOb1]

11 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

 

 

 Fallacious assertions not based on any of the articles and you are already slithering on Grimsby from your first post. 

All you needed to do is highlight the link to the, "...that the citizens of Grimsby and Cornwall are all up in arms..." in any of the posted articles upthread.

Obviously, you can't so, as Trump would say:

 

Where's the link sport?  I didn't add one.  It was reported in these pages months ago about cornwall, and on the BBC a week about Grimsby.

The only fake in here is you SS 

[jonb2]

7 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Yet the spend per pupil, inflation adjusted, has increased massively in the last decade or two. So I'm inclined to look beyond "we need more money" to what's actually going on here. jonb's graph above is interesting. Why have textbooks shot up so much? Saying "we need more money", or even "a slower rate of increase in money will be a disaster" sounds like it's looking at the symptoms instead of the disease. It's where my assumption that the problem with the UK isn't a lack of wealth but a lack of using it wisely comes from. What's gone wrong if doing the same thing gets more and more expensive? I don't know, but I expect a lot of people calling for more cash don't either. But when you throw money at something and you've failed to identify the root cause of the issue you're likely as not squandering it, and you end up with the type of mentality that thinks HTB is a good answer to expensive houses.

I have been thinking about that graph since I came across it. Although it's US data, it does reflect a reality that explains why people are getting poorer in real terms. Admittedly, there is a huge problem with people spending money on plastic things they don't need and getting themselves into considerable debt. Capitalism gone bad. Unlike many here, I don't judge these people too harshly as the spend-it machine is honed to perfection and as you get more depressed - the more escapism you seek. Add this to the dreadful tech company manipulation - and here we are.

This is my position as you know:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/rich-war-poor-world-columbia-university-professor-exploit-tax-resources-money-wealth-a8067621.html

We are being farmed.

Meanwhile RQ, while you say things are squandered - there might be an element of truth in that. But then who do you blame - the education system for bad management? The cost of living leading to fill-in corruption? What is the percentage blame ratio of budget cuts vs bad allocation?

Meanwhile, the reports keep on coming

http://blogs.bmj.com/bmjopen/2017/11/15/health-and-social-care-spending-cuts-linked-to-120000-excess-deaths-in-england/?hootPostID=e06c1c231486751b1732f7e7d3edfe5c

[Sheeple Splinter]

10 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Where's the link sport?  I didn't add one.  It was reported in these pages months ago about cornwall, and on the BBC a week about Grimsby.

The only fake in here is you SS 

More obfuscation, link, from anywhere please.

WRT:

I am utterly sure you didn't make it up, but I am sure you've interpreted it in a way that suits your narrative.  It makes no sense at all, that if it is going to be all gravy, that the citizens of Grimsby and Cornwall are all up in arms about the post brexit effect on their areas as per fishing industry.  I don't make this up, it's a commonly known issue.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Sheeple Splinter
Quote added

[Guest]

2 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Thank you for the link. 

What kind of a country doesn't educate enough teachers to educate it's children?

One where nobody is responsible for anything.

[HairyOb1]

Grimsby and Wider Lincolnshire sea food industry seek Brexit exemption.

Cornwall' begs for tens of millions of pounds to replace EU economic investment after Brexit

The Government promised that Cornwall would receive the same money if the UK voted to leave, but Mr German said that so far they had put a hold on contracts

Cornwall has begun pleading for reassurances that it won't lose the £60million a year it gets from the EU

The port town of Grimsby is seeking Brexit exemption for its seafood industry

Those are links SS

[HairyOb1]

1 minute ago, highYield said:

Thank you for the link. 

What kind of a country doesn't educate enough teachers to educate it's children?

One where nobody is responsible for anything.

It was more referring to immigration not really stopping in brexit terms, and that these immigrants will cost more, as it's allocating £16k a head to aid in getting their English up to scratch.

What kind of country allocates money to pay to train teachers in English, when there's a bountiful supply of English as a second language speaking professionals here already, or nearby.

It doesn't cost anything to train a German teacher to come here, it does to train an Indian one.  That's the nub of this story; more brexit costs.

[Sheeple Splinter]

4 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Grimsby and Wider Lincolnshire sea food industry seek Brexit exemption.

Cornwall' begs for tens of millions of pounds to replace EU economic investment after Brexit

The Government promised that Cornwall would receive the same money if the UK voted to leave, but Mr German said that so far they had put a hold on contracts

Cornwall has begun pleading for reassurances that it won't lose the £60million a year it gets from the EU

The port town of Grimsby is seeking Brexit exemption for its seafood industry

Those are links SS

 

You said:

I am utterly sure you didn't make it up, but I am sure you've interpreted it in a way that suits your narrative.  It makes no sense at all, that if it is going to be all gravy, that the citizens of Grimsby and Cornwall are all up in arms about the post brexit effect on their areas as per fishing industry.  I don't make this up, it's a commonly known issue.

Still waiting for citizens of Grimsby and Cornwall protesting on the streets etc...

[Riedquat]

14 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Meanwhile RQ, while you say things are squandered - there might be an element of truth in that. But then who do you blame - the education system for bad management? The cost of living leading to fill-in corruption? What is the percentage blame ratio of budget cuts vs bad allocation?

That's the big question. I don't know, but we need to find out if things are to improve if that really is (as I believe - and of course that's a hypothesis rather than anything I've got complete proof of) the problem, not lack of money.

[Guest]

Just now, HairyOb1 said:

It was more referring to immigration not really stopping in brexit terms, and that these immigrants will cost more, as it's allocating £16k a head to aid in getting their English up to scratch.

What kind of country allocates money to pay to train teachers in English, when there's a bountiful supply of English as a second language speaking professionals here already, or nearby.

It doesn't cost anything to train a German teacher to come here, it does to train an Indian one.  That's the nub of this story; more brexit costs.

It reminds me of CoVI's partner working to recruit nurses from abroad.

As a first world country, we shouldn't have to financially steal nurses and teachers from less wealthy countries - who have poured their tax monies into their education, and probably need them more.

[jonb2]

6 minutes ago, highYield said:

Thank you for the link. 

What kind of a country doesn't educate enough teachers to educate it's children?

One where nobody is responsible for anything.

Well HY they can meet this lot going as they arrive. Perhaps the foreign teachers could double-up as health workers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/world/europe/nhs-brexit-eu-migrants.html?type=new

I'd suggest it to the Tories, but they seem to have deregulation on their mind

https://www.metro.news/theresa-may-abandoning-human-rights-to-satisfy-brexiteers/828113/

[HairyOb1]

15 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

 

You said:

I am utterly sure you didn't make it up, but I am sure you've interpreted it in a way that suits your narrative.  It makes no sense at all, that if it is going to be all gravy, that the citizens of Grimsby and Cornwall are all up in arms about the post brexit effect on their areas as per fishing industry.  I don't make this up, it's a commonly known issue.

Still waiting for citizens of Grimsby and Cornwall protesting on the streets etc...

Nice obfuscation there SS - But it's true.  Just search for yourself buddy.

People are complaining, people are now worry, it's common knowledge....

As I said, only fake her is you mate  

Edited November 22, 2017 by HairyOb1

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Well HY they can meet this lot going as they arrive. Perhaps the foreign teachers could double-up as health workers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/world/europe/nhs-brexit-eu-migrants.html?type=new

Yet again, the UK as a whole desires to import - in this case people. 

We shouldn't be stealing some of the most important people in our communities - healthcare providers and teachers - from other countries. 

8 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I'd suggest it to the Tories, but they seem to have deregulation on their mind

https://www.metro.news/theresa-may-abandoning-human-rights-to-satisfy-brexiteers/828113/

One almost hopes that Metro's guesses are right in this case. If we hard Brexit badly, then who to blame but the Tories?

[Futuroid]

23 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Yet the spend per pupil, inflation adjusted, has increased massively in the last decade or two. So I'm inclined to look beyond "we need more money" to what's actually going on here. jonb's graph above is interesting. Why have textbooks shot up so much? Saying "we need more money", or even "a slower rate of increase in money will be a disaster" sounds like it's looking at the symptoms instead of the disease. It's where my assumption that the problem with the UK isn't a lack of wealth but a lack of using it wisely comes from. What's gone wrong if doing the same thing gets more and more expensive? I don't know, but I expect a lot of people calling for more cash don't either. But when you throw money at something and you've failed to identify the root cause of the issue you're likely as not squandering it, and you end up with the type of mentality that thinks HTB is a good answer to expensive houses.

Firstly, inflation adjusted spend per pupil has dropped by ~15% in the last 8 years:

Source: https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8937

Why are textbooks so expensive?

http://theconversation.com/required-reading-heres-why-textbooks-are-so-expensive-10502

But if the government didn't keep messing around with the curriculum, the same books the school used ten years ago would be OK. But people like Michael Gove stick their oar in, thinking they know better than the experts. New curriculum = there will hardly be any choice of suitable textbooks on the market, which means you have to pay through the nose.

It's the EUs fault - innit!

Oh, maybe it's actually the UK government that is partly to blame.

Due to real cuts over the last 5-7 years, the public sector is already on a war footing, no room for Brexit induced cuts now without seriously reducing the services offered. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Firstly, inflation adjusted spend per pupil has dropped by ~15% in the last 8 years:

Aided by financially stealing teachers from less wealthy countries.

edit: I bet Eton's spend per pupil tracks inflation closer

Edited November 22, 2017 by Guest

[Riedquat]

6 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Firstly, inflation adjusted spend per pupil has dropped by ~15% in the last 8 years:

...

But if the government didn't keep messing around with the curriculum, the same books the school used ten years ago would be OK. But people like Michael Gove stick their oar in, thinking they know better than the experts. New curriculum = there will hardly be any choice of suitable textbooks on the market, which means you have to pay through the nose.

Due to real cuts over the last 5-7 years, the public sector is already on a war footing, no room for Brexit induced cuts now without seriously reducing the services offered. 

That drop is on the top of a very big rise, mostly, as I pointed out earlier, since 2000.

Government messing around - good, you've identified one problem there. That's at least one of the problems, not a lack of money.

Sticking with the education example, since that's what we've got a graph here showing, either the quality of service in say the 90s was absymal, or there's been little to show for the increase in funding. Which is it? Why are schools asking for money for basics now that they weren't then, despite the lower level of funding then? Those are the questions you should be asking, not panicking about returning to a level that's still historically high.