Are Britain's planned 15-minute cities effectively 15-minute control grids?

[Bob8]

24 minutes ago, steve99 said:

Which is the conspiracy bit of the conspiracy theory. Its all made up. And if fact if any of their pretend fears had a basis in truth it would make no difference whether we had effective town planning or not. Stalin and Hitler will attest to that. Same with the digital currency nonsense. We already have it via the private banks and the government and its agencies can stop your bank account on a whim or the flick of a keyboard. ie they have this power already.  The real conspiracy's are being ignored by these people, eg mega Billions in covid money for a start. Black money funding the Brexit campaign and so on and by extension, Brexit was the result of a conspiracy by monied people with too much government influence.  If we don't deal with the very real, existing conspiracies that are affecting us today we will never be able to deal with anything bigger and will continue to be side-tracked with what might happen vs what is happening. . 

Bravo!

[Arpeggio]

1 hour ago, steve99 said:

Which is the conspiracy bit of the conspiracy theory. Its all made up. And if fact if any of their pretend fears had a basis in truth it would make no difference whether we had effective town planning or not. Stalin and Hitler will attest to that.

I agree that Stalin and Hitler while installing surveillance and setting up penalties as effective town planning would attest to this not having anything to do with their true intentions.

(odd statement)

1 hour ago, steve99 said:

Same with the digital currency nonsense. We already have it via the private banks and the government and its agencies can stop your bank account on a whim or the flick of a keyboard. ie they have this power already.

We know this but it's a matter of political expediency, capability, cash and future events.

1 hour ago, steve99 said:

The real conspiracy's are being ignored by these people, eg mega Billions in covid money for a start.

er, no.

"a competition on how much of your money to p*ss away"

Edited May 20, 2023 by Arpeggio

[kzb]

On 20/05/2023 at 12:01, Unmoderated said:

How are you banned?

Well that is the idea behind these schemes.

They want Asda gone, to be replaced with neighbourhood stores.  Turning the clock back in effect.

Also, Asda is only an example.  A more serious concern is employment.  We already have millions of people who cannot see the advantages of working for a living.  This is another nail in the coffin of employment opportunities.

Basically you are going to be trapped in a low wage, expensive and poor services ghetto.  Hope you enjoy it.

[Unmoderated]

6 hours ago, kzb said:

Well that is the idea behind these schemes.

They want Asda gone, to be replaced with neighbourhood stores.  Turning the clock back in effect.

Also, Asda is only an example.  A more serious concern is employment.  We already have millions of people who cannot see the advantages of working for a living.  This is another nail in the coffin of employment opportunities.

Basically you are going to be trapped in a low wage, expensive and poor services ghetto.  Hope you enjoy it.

All very interesting. 

Have you got a link?

[Unmoderated]

On 19/05/2023 at 23:19, The Angry Capitalist said:

You want to go there?

First you will have to inform me what you mean by authorities.

My definition might be different to yours.

I regards authorities who have the power to enforce policies or laws such as councils and government.

I hope you've had a good weekend.

Appreciate it might take some time to compile a list of 100 things but do you think it'll be ready this coming week?

[kzb]

1 hour ago, Unmoderated said:

All very interesting. 

Have you got a link?

No I don't, I thought this up myself.  I'm sure you can find similar arguments elsewhere.  Probably explain it better too.

[Unmoderated]

13 hours ago, kzb said:

No I don't, I thought this up myself.  I'm sure you can find similar arguments elsewhere.  Probably explain it better too.

With respect I think you might have thought it up wrong. From what I understand it's only driving into certain areas that is proposed to be restricted. What isn't being said is you can only drive your car 100 times a year. 

Hence me asking for a link. I wanted to see where you base info to think about this was coming from. If you've seen something that contradicts what I've said then I'd be grateful if you'd share it. 

Given the ASDAs tend to be out of town on big retail parks I can't see a proposal banning you from ASDA at all. It might possibly work differently for Waitrose given they're more a town centre location. 

[kzb]

43 minutes ago, Unmoderated said:

With respect I think you might have thought it up wrong. From what I understand it's only driving into certain areas that is proposed to be restricted. What isn't being said is you can only drive your car 100 times a year. 

Hence me asking for a link. I wanted to see where you base info to think about this was coming from. If you've seen something that contradicts what I've said then I'd be grateful if you'd share it. 

Given the ASDAs tend to be out of town on big retail parks I can't see a proposal banning you from ASDA at all. It might possibly work differently for Waitrose given they're more a town centre location. 

Firstly I have to say I've no local knowledge of the city of Oxford.  I've driven past it numerous times on the M40 and A34 but that is as close as I've got.  However we are discussing a general topic that could apply to any sizeable town or city.

Looking at Google Maps it seems Asda is a poor example.  There does not seem to be a proper Asda within the city itself so Asda is a bit of a non-issue.  There is however a Sainsburys in the centre and one in Cowley.  Aldi is a good example because there seem to be two, both in outlying areas but within the A34/A40.

If I lived in Oxford and wanted to go to Aldi, and I didn't live in the same 15-minute zone as one of the Aldis, I would have to drive all the way out of the city, go round the ring road and come back into the Aldi zone from outside.  Bear in mind I might only live 200 metres away but if it is the other side of the control barrier I still have to drive miles to get to it, using energy, money and increasing CO2 emissions.

Unless l wanted to use one of my precious ration of 100 zone crossings per year of course.  I don't know what I would have to do to go to Sainsburys in the city centre.

Hardly anyone wants this.  There was a big protest in the city in Feb.  Bollards have been burnt down and other infrastructure attacked.

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2023-02-19/five-arrests-as-thousands-protest-in-oxford-against-ltn-15-minute-cities

https://reconnectingoxford.weebly.com/

It's 2 to 1 against in these neighbourhoods.  If there was a referendum the proposal would fail massively, far more decisive than the EU or Scottish referenda.  Where's your local democracy now, when up against WEF directives ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Unmoderated]

3 minutes ago, kzb said:

Firstly I have to say I've no local knowledge of the city of Oxford.  I've driven past it numerous times on the M40 and A34 but that is as close as I've got.  However we are discussing a general topic that could apply to any sizeable town or city.

Looking at Google Maps it seems Asda is a poor example.  There does not seem to be a proper Asda within the city itself so Asda is a bit of a non-issue.  There is however a Sainsburys in the centre and one in Cowley.  Aldi is a good example because there seem to be two, both in outlying areas but within the A34/A40.

If I lived in Oxford and wanted to go to Aldi, and I didn't live in the same 15-minute zone as one of the Aldis, I would have to drive all the way out of the city, go round the ring road and come back into the Aldi zone from outside.  Bear in mind I might only live 200 metres away but if it is the other side of the control barrier I still have to drive miles to get to it, using energy, money and increasing CO2 emissions.

Unless l wanted to use one of my precious ration of 100 zone crossings per year of course.  I don't know what I would have to do to go to Sainsburys in the city centre.

Hardly anyone wants this.  There was a big protest in the city in Feb.  Bollards have been burnt down and other infrastructure attacked.

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2023-02-19/five-arrests-as-thousands-protest-in-oxford-against-ltn-15-minute-cities

https://reconnectingoxford.weebly.com/

It's 2 to 1 against in these neighbourhoods.  If there was a referendum the proposal would fail massively, far more decisive than the EU or Scottish referenda.  Where's your local democracy now, when up against WEF directives ?

 

 

 

 

 

If it's 200 metres then walk? I'm still not seeing that there's a cutoff zone as such. The idea of everything being 15 minutes walk of you seems like a good idea. As I said you're not banned from driving to ASDA either or even Aldi, you'd just have to walk it or put up with the faff of a longer journey. 

I do think driving is insanely cheap and people make all kinds of pointless journeys but how to deal with it when the rich can afford to carry on and often do in larger and more polluting cars. 

BTW I'm no fan of Oxford's war on the car. It seems to have been a relentless attack for at least as long as I can recall (even driving in there for client visits 10+ years ago was a nightmare. 

Democracy is democracy. If these are being implemented then it's possible to have them reversed? Local elections etc. 

I've seen the vandalism on these. Seems like a lot of people liked the quiet of lockdowns to continue.

So it seems the sensationalism of being banned from places isn't quite right, it'll just make certain journeys more onerous and encourage people to use the car less?

If these are indeed undemocratic changes and people don't want them then it'll be dissolved through local elections right?

[kzb]

39 minutes ago, Unmoderated said:

If it's 200 metres then walk?

What if there is a lot to carry or I am in a rush?  Or I have limited mobility?  There are plenty of old ladies not classed as disabled but find it difficult to go very far.

40 minutes ago, Unmoderated said:

Democracy is democracy. If these are being implemented then it's possible to have them reversed? Local elections etc. 

I don't know.  These things are reptilian policies coming down from the WEF etc.  Did the current council campaign on a policy of bringing in these zones?  Who do they vote for to get it reversed ?

If there was a local referendum and the residents wanted it, I'd go along with it.  If they are happy destroying their employment practices and access to free markets then they deserve everything they get, good luck to them.

48 minutes ago, Unmoderated said:

I do think driving is insanely cheap

I think you are in a minority there.

48 minutes ago, Unmoderated said:

BTW I'm no fan of Oxford's war on the car. It seems to have been a relentless attack for at least as long as I can recall (even driving in there for client visits 10+ years ago was a nightmare. 

If you're no fan of their war on the car, why support these war on the car proposals ?

If they removed all the pointless barriers, cycle lanes, made most of the traffic lights peak time only, and yes provided fit for purpose and cheap public transport etc etc, most of the congestion would disappear.

[Bob8]

57 minutes ago, Unmoderated said:

If it's 200 metres then walk? I'm still not seeing that there's a cutoff zone as such. The idea of everything being 15 minutes walk of you seems like a good idea. As I said you're not banned from driving to ASDA either or even Aldi, you'd just have to walk it or put up with the faff of a longer journey. 

I do think driving is insanely cheap and people make all kinds of pointless journeys but how to deal with it when the rich can afford to carry on and often do in larger and more polluting cars. 

BTW I'm no fan of Oxford's war on the car. It seems to have been a relentless attack for at least as long as I can recall (even driving in there for client visits 10+ years ago was a nightmare. 

Democracy is democracy. If these are being implemented then it's possible to have them reversed? Local elections etc. 

I've seen the vandalism on these. Seems like a lot of people liked the quiet of lockdowns to continue.

So it seems the sensationalism of being banned from places isn't quite right, it'll just make certain journeys more onerous and encourage people to use the car less?

If these are indeed undemocratic changes and people don't want them then it'll be dissolved through local elections right?

Oxford's war on the car started with its layout which is pre-car. A look at the layout of the city dictates the problems with having it as a car based city. 

[kzb]

12 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Oxford's war on the car started with its layout which is pre-car. A look at the layout of the city dictates the problems with having it as a car based city. 

OK then.  Provide an underground railway system or whatever first.  Then put up barriers.

This is actually cheap compared to all the net zero lunacy etc.

[longgone]

On 20/05/2023 at 12:23, nightowl said:

Again I ask, how many HPCers are suspicious about the motives and compentancy of TPTB to supply decent housing to the nation, yet on everything else have total confidence?

Not only that, anyone who doesnt share this selective confidence must be labelled right wing conspiracy types! 🤔

Some posters may only see themselves as a success as judged by themselves as confirmation of a system that does work for some so if it works for them in this manufactured climate why should the notion that this new fandango plan  be anything but the same. 

I guess it's the same as discussing the craziness of house prices yet already owning one. Fancy a slice of cake which i am not willing to cut ?

[longgone]

On 20/05/2023 at 11:53, Riedquat said:

There's no reason whatsoever to believe that life will improve in the last 20 years. After all I see no sign of any reversal on the trajectory that we seem to be pushing for - more people, more development, more noise, more speed, more dehumanising technological integration, more monitoring, more recording. All of that obnoxious, disgusting, damaging crap is labelled "progress." And that's before you even take in to account the things that most people agree are problems.

The best that it seems we can hope for is the rate of decay being slowed. Not seeing much to hope for there though either.

Dehumanising is the standout word i agree. A dillution of human interaction dressed up as progress for the sole purpose to save costs. Getting passed the word sifter for a job application, or swipped left or right on dating apps or short messages instead of phone calls, can't even use cash anymore just tap n go no interaction needed.

Not long till Ai bots will be interviewing the remaining workers. 

Even death is being dehumanised.

https://www.purecremation.co.uk

Cremation at an unattended committal at Charlton Park Crematorium or another carefully selected venue that we choose.

 

 

[Arpeggio]

15 hours ago, longgone said:

Dehumanising is the standout word i agree. A dillution of human interaction dressed up as progress for the sole purpose to save costs. Getting passed the word sifter for a job application, or swipped left or right on dating apps or short messages instead of phone calls, can't even use cash anymore just tap n go no interaction needed.

Not long till Ai bots will be interviewing the remaining workers. 

Even death is being dehumanised.

https://www.purecremation.co.uk

Cremation at an unattended committal at Charlton Park Crematorium or another carefully selected venue that we choose.

"You can create a personal goodbye in a familiar setting - whether that’s a garden barbeque or a scattering ceremony at sea"

[nightowl]

On 22/05/2023 at 11:47, kzb said:

 

The usual sham consultation there then🙄 most people aren't aware but despite the councils anti car mindset, a lot of people in the area work building the things- Minis to be exact.

I would have though the real traffic problem in Oxford were to the north where the a40 headington  roundabout until where it meets the a34 and a44.

[scottbeard]

19 hours ago, nightowl said:

The usual sham consultation there then🙄

A consultation isn't a vote though - it's just an "anyone got any comments before we do this?" exercise.

There's no obligation to listen to the comments.

[Bob8]

19 hours ago, nightowl said:

The usual sham consultation there then🙄 most people aren't aware but despite the councils anti car mindset, a lot of people in the area work building the things- Minis to be exact.

I would have though the real traffic problem in Oxford were to the north where the a40 headington  roundabout until where it meets the a34 and a44.

The point here, I think, is that when you refer to the traffic problem, you consider that in terms of car transport. The High Street is a mess, the city is overrun with cars, there are few safe areas for kids to play (unless there have been dramatic changes in the last 15 years). Cycling is safer that typical in the UK, but still not safe. 

[Quicken]

On 19/05/2023 at 09:58, The Spaniard said:

Any thoughts about why surveillance cameras and barriers appear to be prioritised? This is a question that Ms Anderson pointedly asked and one that triggers my own suspicions about broader oppressive motives of social engineering and population control.

Combine the 15-minute restrictions with CBDC tracking of all transactions and surely far too much power will then have been given to remote and potentially unaccountable technocrats.

A more convincing and attractive approach IMO would be first to organise and furnish the 15-minute districts as they are enticingly described.  Surely many people (several on this thread for starters) would then flock to these new facility-rich areas, indeed compete to live there. There would then be no reason to track and trace the inhabitants so intensely, nor to discourage their travel from their designated area.

Comfortably off people DO flock to the existing 15 minute districts in cities (I live in one and do not need a car - it's great). The areas with local ameneties are desirable and hence expensive middle class zones. The problem is the amenity-free ghettos where people have poorer diet options, and worse health outcomes etc. Broadening access to amenities is the main thing 15 minute cities are supposed to address (as well as lower pollution, greater physical activity etc.). Think of it like public health measures such as flushing toilets and sewerage networks.

[ECS2]

15 mins city concept is pretty much having services within 15 mins walk. Like many used to. GPs, schools etc before massive urban sprawl.

 

Some loons then think it's all about control as a few low traffic roads planned. The same zones that have been around for decades.

These clowns didn't say a thing when face recognition cameras were brought in nor cctv everywhere (that ship long sailed) but not being able to drive to Tesco on a direct road is some sort of conspiracy. They're laughably ignorant about technology, 50 years of planning policy, recent history and politics.

[ECS2]

On 5/22/2023 at 12:48 PM, kzb said:

What if there is a lot to carry or I am in a rush?  Or I have limited mobility?  There are plenty of old ladies not classed as disabled but find it difficult to go very far.

 

This old chestnut. Perfectly possible for low traffic zones to allow blue badge holders through. Many already do. 

 

Ultimately the UK was a densely populated urban country until post war when it diverged from many developed nations.

 

Urban living has been growing again for 20 years. The car is a blight on that. It's interesting that in recent elections the pro car parties did badly in many areas despitre their bluster. 

 

A lot of older folks who grew up in 50s-80s don't realise the "car is king" was an anomaly in many places. 

[kzb]

23 minutes ago, ECS2 said:

This old chestnut. Perfectly possible for low traffic zones to allow blue badge holders through. Many already do. 

I specifically said many old people have limited mobility but without being classed as disabled.  They don't have blue badges.

24 minutes ago, ECS2 said:

Ultimately the UK was a densely populated urban country until post war when it diverged from many developed nations.

Perhaps, but you can't undo 80 years of increasing reliance on the car on a whim.  It'd take another 80 years to reverse it.

26 minutes ago, ECS2 said:

Urban living has been growing again for 20 years. The car is a blight on that. It's interesting that in recent elections the pro car parties did badly in many areas despitre their bluster. 

I've no local knowledge of Oxford, but I guess it is a special case, a town based on well-off students and academics.   How do you vote against this proposal anyhow?  Which parties are standing against it?

Anyone with a proper job will gradually relocate outside the zoned areas, as will major retail and businesses.

In towns without a dominating university sector this will be catastrophic for town centres and inner areas.

[nightowl]

41 minutes ago, kzb said:

I've no local knowledge of Oxford, but I guess it is a special case, a town based on well-off students and academics.  

The centre is older and historic but oxford isn't unique there, but much of it to the south and east is more typical UK town.  If you only see the touristy bits it appears crowded and narrow, but if you only saw the south/east suburbs you wouldn't be so sure why 15min zones are so needed at all. 

The biggest local gridlocking is on the ring road to the north which isn't being addressed.

[Brendan110_0]

Well if Rochdale was turned into a 15 minute town I'd have a choice of bookies/gambling shops, Turkish barbers, pound ($1.25) shops, and kebab/chicken takeaways. No thanks to that. And public transport here is shockingly bad, it was better run in 1880's.

[Arpeggio]

Prior to doing anything, it is necessary to know 1. what proportion of traffic within 15 zones is already within the zone and 2. traffic which isn't within the zone but will be allowed without a financial penalty.

https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/traffic-filters-2022

That "residents in Oxford and some areas just outside the city will be able to apply for a permit allowing them to drive through the traffic filters on up to 100 days per year." and this will "Reduce traffic levels by around 20% across the city within the ring road."

.....would suggest traffic that is not within the 15 min zone, takes up at least some of that 20%.

Free permits for private cars will be available for:

• Blue badge holders (either driving the car or being driven in the car) and disabled tax class vehicles
• Non-professional carers (in receipt of carer’s allowance)
• Professional health and care workers (for operational journeys, not commuting)
• Businesses within the permit area using a private car as a goods vehicle
• Residential properties within the permit area eligible for 100 day passes per vehicle per year (up to a max of 3 vehicles per household and one vehicle per person)
• Community transport vehicles
• Those in receipt of mobility-related benefits
• Those in receipt of direct travel payments.

Therefore, excluding those, the implication via a 20% traffic reduction may mean people who drive to or from work, school, appointments, patronage of business, use of public services or private carers.

I look forward to finding the answer to my first question atop this post. Although obvious but seems I have missed it.

 

On 22/05/2023 at 13:09, kzb said:

OK then.  Provide an underground railway system or whatever first.  Then put up barriers.

Whether such a system, or something else (and make it free, or economically "no brainer" for residents), you are talking about something that would go for the 80%+ (as in 80% residential and some of the above 20% traffic reduction proposed that might also use). Not the proposed system with surveillance check points and penalty fines which states an aim of 20%.

Apart from how your idea would not restrict taxable enterprise & opportunities, possibly even expand, in a way, you are going for low hanging fruit, a large chunk. This may be too logical.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Arpeggio