Are Britain's planned 15-minute cities effectively 15-minute control grids?

[spxy]

9 hours ago, The Angry Capitalist said:

 

How can you have "everything you need" within a 15 minute time-frame? Isn't everyone different in society?

What one person regards as essential another person does not.

Who decides on what "you need"?

Or are you expecting every kind of store under the sun in your 15 minute zone or expect all the people living in that area to have the same needs and wants and tastes etc?

 

LoL what a straw man, obviously we cant have everything someone "needs" within 15 mins, but we can have a good range of what an average person requires on a daily basis. Guess what if there's something a mile down the road you'ed like you can go and get it....

[The Spaniard]

Any thoughts about why surveillance cameras and barriers appear to be prioritised? This is a question that Ms Anderson pointedly asked and one that triggers my own suspicions about broader oppressive motives of social engineering and population control.

Combine the 15-minute restrictions with CBDC tracking of all transactions and surely far too much power will then have been given to remote and potentially unaccountable technocrats.

A more convincing and attractive approach IMO would be first to organise and furnish the 15-minute districts as they are enticingly described.  Surely many people (several on this thread for starters) would then flock to these new facility-rich areas, indeed compete to live there. There would then be no reason to track and trace the inhabitants so intensely, nor to discourage their travel from their designated area.

[scottbeard]

10 hours ago, The Angry Capitalist said:

How can you have "everything you need" within a 15 minute time-frame? Isn't everyone different in society?

What one person regards as essential another person does not.

Who decides on what "you need"?

Or are you expecting every kind of store under the sun in your 15 minute zone or expect all the people living in that area to have the same needs and wants and tastes etc?

Are entrepreneurs just going to say "Oh I will open a butchers shop in that 8 story building in that 15 minute zone because there is not one currently there"?

What type of restaurants will operate there? 1 Italian, 1 French bistro and 1 Chinese? What if you think all their prices are too expensive? Are you going to travel 30 minutes away to eat in a burger place because you want a burger and don't fancy an Italian or Chinese etc?

That would make you a hypocrite wouldn't it?

Furthermore, if it is a 15 minute city don't you think there will be a lack of competition in that zone? Or are you expecting a choice of 3 supermarkets, 2 furniture stores, 5 restaurants and 6 hairdressers etc?

Good luck with that.

If you are living within a 15 minute city you are going to have monopolies and very little choice. Plain and simple. You're goods and services are going to be expensive as there inevitably will be exploitation by the companies operating there.

Or are you expecting the councils to set price controls?

Or do you think a new entrepreneur will open a second or third store in that 15 minute zone and offer lower prices than the monopolist? In a 15 minute zone where there will not be many people living I highly doubt it. There might not be any property available even if they wanted to operate there.

Or are you expecting the councils to build an adequate supply of property for the companies to move in and cater to every persons whims in the 15 minute zone? There's going to be limited space for companies to operate in so we are going to have to build some mighty tall buildings.

Who is going to pay for all those mighty skyscrapers?

Some areas might work due to having the appropriate local wage salaries and adequate property available for businesses and residents but it will be impossible to implement on any large or significant scale. You would probably have bad ghettos in poorer 15 minute zones too as not all 15 minute cities will be equal.

15 minute cities is COMMUNISM. Plain and simple. It's a command economy.

It would be mighty inefficient despite the utopian propaganda.

If you want to live or like the idea of a 15 minute city then you can now TODAY go find a job in a city and move near to that job where I am sure you will have most amenities close at hand and not need to travel too far to have what you need especially in places like London. You don't need any authority to dictate to you to live in one or build one for you because you are now FREE TO CHOOSE that option for yourself TODAY.

No? You can't do that? Will that be impractical because London is expensive and there might not be any jobs there that you like or can do in your chosen profession?

Then what are you expecting in a 15 minute city???

Do you think that all the housing in that area will just magically have rental prices in line with your wage from working there?

People commute far to where they work for many reasons and despite what the commies running our country are saying it is efficient. It's not perfect and yes our system is broken at the moment for obvious reasons but that is capitalism.

Who said anything about EVERYTHING you need?

Of course that can’t be the case and neither I nor any advocate of them says that. 

“Most daily essentials” is the idea.

Clearly if you want to go on holiday, or watch your football team play in the cup final, or indeed change jobs to a different county you will need to travel further and no one is saying you can’t or won’t.

[dkujsbap]

Four pages about something that literally every dutch town or city has had since the 70s. Nothing to do with house prices or the economy. This forum is ridiculous and I can't believe I allowed it to influence ten years of my financial views.

Its about removing polluting speeding cars from residential streets and making them go the long way round if they really have to drive. Nobody in their right mind would ask for their cul-de-sac to become a through route so why there is so much pushback to the opposite is beyond me.

If you can walk it in 15 minutes then it rarely needs a car. If it does need a car, then when everyone else is walking you won't have any traffic to contend with.

Doesnt mean they put you in jail for leaving your imaginary cell 30472

[msi]

15 minutes ago, dkujsbap said:

Four pages about something that literally every dutch town or city has had since the 70s. Nothing to do with house prices or the economy. This forum is ridiculous and I can't believe I allowed it to influence ten years of my financial views.

Its about removing polluting speeding cars from residential streets and making them go the long way round if they really have to drive. Nobody in their right mind would ask for their cul-de-sac to become a through route so why there is so much pushback to the opposite is beyond me.

If you can walk it in 15 minutes then it rarely needs a car. If it does need a car, then when everyone else is walking you won't have any traffic to contend with.

Doesnt mean they put you in jail for leaving your imaginary cell 30472

The loons have been showed up for their cr*p on C*vid, Br*xit, Climate Change, Ukraine, The Euro, The New World Order.

It's just the next loonacy for them...  just point and laugh at them

[kzb]

21 hours ago, captainb said:

Odd new thing to be loony about.

Not sure anyone would complain about having services closer and no longer a 2hr drive to a district hospital for an MRI... But seemingly they do. Protest letter to local rag about new local centre being built.

No it is terrible.  We live in a free market economy, or so we are told.

Central to that is choice, and if we can't travel freely we don't have choice.  The market cannot operate.

If you are stuck with your local store, they can charge what they want.  It will be inflationary and increase peoples' cost of living.

The same thing applies to all your local services.  You can't go elsewhere so they can be as poor as they want.

It's a recipe for disaster.

[Casual-observer]

35 minutes ago, dkujsbap said:

Four pages about something that literally every dutch town or city has had since the 70s. Nothing to do with house prices or the economy. This forum is ridiculous and I can't believe I allowed it to influence ten years of my financial views.

Its about removing polluting speeding cars from residential streets and making them go the long way round if they really have to drive. Nobody in their right mind would ask for their cul-de-sac to become a through route so why there is so much pushback to the opposite is beyond me.

If you can walk it in 15 minutes then it rarely needs a car. If it does need a car, then when everyone else is walking you won't have any traffic to contend with.

Doesnt mean they put you in jail for leaving your imaginary cell 30472

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. 

The availability of local amenities is window dressing cr@p , it's the other side of the coin that the technology will also enable. 

We're rapidly entering a territory where the more tech you roll out, the more of a god complex it gives people. The likes of Dom Cummings obsessed about the avenues app's can provide so he could run No10 like some sort of Bond villain bunker.  

The fantasy that the likes of ULEZ will just switch us all willingly back into some sort of homogeneous 1950's local communities for local people is for the birds. 

The dye is already cast, the more this sort of tech is rolled out the more our society will regress because guess what.....the more power you enable an entity to have over you the more they will seize it and the more child like they will treat us. 

Social media for example of giving people with mental health problems serious god like complexes as it essentially offers them an avenue that nature never envisioned. 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Casual-observer

[Up the spout]

14 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. 

The availability of local amenities is window dressing cr@p , it's the other side of the coin that the technology will also enable. 

We're rapidly entering a territory where the more tech you roll out, the more of a god complex it gives people. The likes of Dom Cummings obsessed about the avenues app's can provide so he could run No10 like some sort of Bond villain bunker.  

The fantasy that the likes of ULEZ will just switch us all willingly back into some sort of homogeneous 1950's local communities for local people is for the birds. 

The dye is already cast, the more this sort of tech is rolled out the more our society will regress because guess what.....the more power you enable an entity to have over you the more they will seize it and the more child like they will treat us. 

Social media for example of giving people with mental health problems serious god like complexes as it essentially offers them an avenue that nature never envisioned. 

 

I'm not seeing it, so if it's so obvious than I reckon your explanation has been found wanting.

[spxy]

30 minutes ago, kzb said:

No it is terrible.  We live in a free market economy, or so we are told.

Central to that is choice, and if we can't travel freely we don't have choice. 

If you have to travel for something you don't have choice. See what I did.

[Arpeggio]

52 minutes ago, The Spaniard said:

Any thoughts about why surveillance cameras and barriers appear to be prioritised? This is a question that Ms Anderson pointedly asked and one that triggers my own suspicions about broader oppressive motives of social engineering and population control.

Combine the 15-minute restrictions with CBDC tracking of all transactions and surely far too much power will then have been given to remote and potentially unaccountable technocrats.

Getting people to live in closer proximity could be a problem for the spread of viruses (rather obvious).

You would need to have been living under a rock not to know the experts have been telling us there will be more pandemics but not only that, we are not prepared.

Could it be that such infrastructure could assuage fears and be better preparation? Contrary to the counterintuitive of having people in a smaller area with regards to the spread of viruses, having people in a smaller area & with these technologies, would also make it easier to control the spread over wider areas to minimize the random.

So not only can people have everything within 15 minutes, they won't be let down by the government in the future when they are clearly telling us there will be more pandemics.

 

52 minutes ago, The Spaniard said:

A more convincing and attractive approach IMO would be first to organise and furnish the 15-minute districts as they are enticingly described.  Surely many people (several on this thread for starters) would then flock to these new facility-rich areas, indeed compete to live there. There would then be no reason to track and trace the inhabitants so intensely, nor to discourage their travel from their designated area.

You would have thought so, but perhaps this is an issue of the order of priorities.

 

7 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

The fantasy that the likes of ULEZ will just switch us all willingly back into some sort of homogeneous 1950's local communities for local people is for the birds. 

Maybe there is a theme here. If you want a local community, do it / make one / use it.

If you want someone else to do it for you, the same government that oversaw inflated cost of living / house prices, people having to commute etc., and not done much to help local businesses, (some would say the opposite).......

7 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

The dye is already cast, the more this sort of tech is rolled out the more our society will regress because guess what.....the more power you enable an entity to have over you the more they will seize it and the more child like they will treat us.

.......will do it for you.

[kzb]

1 minute ago, spxy said:

If you have to travel for something you don't have choice. See what I did.

TBH I don't see what you did.

If the local school is terrible or if I need to go to B&Q for something urgently what do I do?

Consumer choice is absolutely central to the economic model we've been following our whole lives.  You can't just upend that on a whim.

[Casual-observer]

7 minutes ago, Up the spout said:

I'm not seeing it, so if it's so obvious than I reckon your explanation has been found wanting.

You just need to pick up some history books

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely

Had you done a stint in say a Soviet state you probably would have rather than your lived experience from an armchair.  

[Stewy]

4 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

 

Could it be that such infrastructure could assuage fears and be better preparation? Contrary to the counterintuitive of having people in a smaller area with regards to the spread of viruses, having people in a smaller area & with these technologies, would also make it easier to control the spread over wider areas to minimize the random.

 

Bradford tells a lesson about this, ie inbreeding. 🫢

[Casual-observer]

4 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

Maybe there is a theme here. If you want a local community, do it / make one / use it.

If you want someone else to do it for you, the same government that oversaw inflated cost of living / house prices, people having to commute etc., and not done much to help local businesses, (some would say the opposite).......

.......will do it for you.

Past local communities that people seem to be arguing for here arose from necessity. 

It didn't arise from say an arrogant mayor forcing people to do it via the use of a camera lens and suggesting your life today has to suddenly wrap around a 15 minute concept, as you try and pretend current technology has blasted away those limitations. 

So it's your thesis here that needs justifying, not mine. My very point is the state will inevitably end up making a hash job of this 15 min concept and to enforce it will end up doing with a whip hand. 

It is as inevitable as the fools concept that having to show proof of vaccination to eat a pizza was. 

[Up the spout]

11 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

You just need to pick up some history books

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely

Had you done a stint in say a Soviet state you probably would have rather than your lived experience from an armchair.  

I've been to Georgia, Armenia, Lithuania, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, China, Korea, Vietnam, Bulgaria, Romania, ex-East Germany, and Hungary; done the walking tours, visited the museums, attended the lectures, and never in any one of them was living within 15 minutes of facilities mentioned.

Phone tapping, reporting on neighbours and family, being randomly arrested and sent to the gulags to do slave labour yeah - just like in 1984 (which also doesn't mention the 15-minute conspiracy thing either). 

So really nobody with any knowledge is going to fall for the 'Soviet' explanation either - in fact, it'll probably insult any with links to Soviet times to boot. A very 'special' post. Nice one, laddo.

[Arpeggio]

23 minutes ago, Several said:

Bradford tells a lesson about this, ie inbreeding. 🫢

Bradford Hill Criteria has caused embarrassment too.

 

17 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

Past local communities that people seem to be arguing for here arose from necessity. 

It didn't arise from say an arrogant mayor forcing people to do it via the use of a camera lens and suggesting your life today has to suddenly wrap around a 15 minute concept, as you try and pretend current technology has blasted away those limitations. 

So it's your thesis here that needs justifying, not mine. My very point is the state will inevitably end up making a hash job of this 15 min concept and to enforce it will end up doing with a whip hand. 

It is as inevitable as the fools concept that having to show proof of vaccination to eat a pizza was. 

You're right. In similar words, I was saying if you are happy with the 15 minute concept from the same government happy to sell off council housing and sell housing off to the world with lots of empty residences, then don't be surprised if you end up with what you describe. The theme was relying on the government.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Arpeggio

[Arpeggio]

8 minutes ago, Up the spout said:

I've been to Georgia, Armenia, Lithuania, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, China, Korea, Vietnam, Bulgaria, Romania, ex-East Germany, and Hungary; done the walking tours, visited the museums, attended the lectures, and never in any one of them was living within 15 minutes of facilities mentioned.

You must be either very brave to go on holiday in some countries with such low vaccine uptake, or those were pre-2020.

[spxy]

32 minutes ago, kzb said:

TBH I don't see what you did.

If the local school is terrible or if I need to go to B&Q for something urgently what do I do?

Consumer choice is absolutely central to the economic model we've been following our whole lives.  You can't just upend that on a whim.

there is NO RULE to use what is within 15 minutes! Did brain cells suddenly evaporate!

[Casual-observer]

2 minutes ago, Up the spout said:

I've been to Georgia, Armenia, Lithuania, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, China, Korea, Vietnam, Bulgaria, Romania, ex-East Germany, and Hungary; done the walking tours, visited the museums, attended the lectures, and never in any one of them was living within 15 minutes of facilities mentioned.

Phone tapping, reporting on neighbours and family, being randomly arrested and sent to the gulags to do slave labour yeah - just like in 1984 (which also doesn't mention the 15-minute conspiracy thing either). 

So really nobody with any knowledge is going to fall for the 'Soviet' explanation either - in fact, it'll probably insult any with links to Soviet times to boot. A very 'special' post. Nice one, laddo.

What about forcing you to stay in your zone even when the local despot tried desperately to cover up the local power plant melting down, that was awfully 15 minute ish. 

Visiting somewhere and actually living in societies where farcical artificial rules begin to arise  are two separate matters laddo. I've been to Romania as well but I wouldn't allude it it giving me a lived insight as to what it was like living under a despot day to day. 

What I do know is I wouldn't want to either.  

Your arrogance also seems to have made you overlook the MEP in question who actually did have that link.

[nightowl]

This thread does demonstrate a skism in HPCers and it's not the only thread.

HPCers as a group are wary and skeptical of the way tptb have run the economy in particular lending and asset values and the unjust distortions this has led to people, especially the young.  

What I find odd is how those who recognise the above issue, when presented with other issues where tptb are making top level decisions have little or no skepticism or critical thinking about this.  It's odd how people don't trust the BOE to manage inflation yet are totally fine with the same sort of institutions deciding what you 15min zone allows🤔

[Confusion of VIs]

10 hours ago, The Angry Capitalist said:

 

The problem is government or the authorities have no right to dictate if we should have 15 minute cities or not.

If the population want that then the market will provide it.

It's none of their business!!

Planning rules have always allowed local authorities tob"dicate" what gets built in an area. After 40 yrs of allowing the creation of souless estates thay are at last upping their game. 

I am currently in Potsdam (Berlin) an area that is a 15 min city and where having a car is an option not a requirement The quality of life is superb and no one is prevented from travelling elsewhere if they choose, it's just that most of the time you don't want or have to.

 Quite why anyone would want to protect our current system is beyond me.

 

 

[nightowl]

6 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I am currently in Potsdam (Berlin) an area that is a 15 min city and where having a car is an option not a requirement The quality of life is superb and no one is prevented from travelling elsewhere if they choose, it's just that most of the time you don't want or have to.

Lucky you. Imagine youre a self employed plumber living within oxford's ring road.  

You get a call out in a different zone for which you haven't any 'credits' but you can't take you can there so have to turn the job down or charge a supplement, whereby the customer will call someone else or give up. No you can't carry a spare boiler on a bicycle.

Imagine your job in Berlin moves to a distance away and you now need to get there everyday and no public transport exists for your particular journey?

It's easy for those in a 15min world to fail to see those who don't have the same life as them.

[Up the spout]

20 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

You must be either very brave to go on holiday in some countries with such low vaccine uptake, or those were pre-2020.

You would have to be on a manic tour to visit them all since the jabs were available! LOL!

19 minutes ago, Casual-observer said:

What about forcing you to stay in your zone even when the local despot tried desperately to cover up the local power plant melting down, that was awfully 15 minute ish. 

Visiting somewhere and actually living in societies where farcical artificial rules begin to arise  are two separate matters laddo. I've been to Romania as well but I wouldn't allude it it giving me a lived insight as to what it was like living under a despot day to day. 

What I do know is I wouldn't want to either.  

Your arrogance also seems to have made you overlook the MEP in question who actually did have that link.

Yes, hence why you go on tours, visit museums, and attend lectures by people who did live there like any intelligent and curious person does (although I actually have lived in a couple of them too). 

Is that all ya got, kiddo?

[captainb]

1 hour ago, kzb said:

No it is terrible.  We live in a free market economy, or so we are told.

Central to that is choice, and if we can't travel freely we don't have choice.  The market cannot operate.

If you are stuck with your local store, they can charge what they want.  It will be inflationary and increase peoples' cost of living.

The same thing applies to all your local services.  You can't go elsewhere so they can be as poor as they want.

It's a recipe for disaster.

You what? There is nothing stopping you driving anywhere... Just if things are closer why would (most) people. That's the idea ...... 

[Jean-Luc]

Remember this...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55396316

Quote

Travel between Scotland and the rest of the UK is currently prohibited in law for all but "essential" reasons.

 

Chief Constable Iain Livingstone has said he does not want to set up roadblocks or checkpoints.

Now how amazing will it be for Iain Livingstone and his ilk when roadblocks are not required as the infrastructure is there via camera's etc to enforce such nonsense.

The Scottish Gov under Nicola Sturgeon banned any travel between different council areas for a cold. All you numpties here that think that the infrastructure put in place for these 15min cities won't be used in such a way need but look and see it was done already the problem was they had no means to enforce it. Soon they will...