Energy prices through the roof

[kzb]

5 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

Generation and insulation are two different things. Agreed, to get the best out of micro-generation good insulation is desirable, but not essential. Given the diverse housing in the UK, I would imagine the only way to fairly finance this would be a flat grant/loan, but it's a separate issue imo. 

If we are going down the heat pump route much better standards of insulation are needed at the same time.

I'm all for the grants.

 

5 hours ago, AThirdWay said:

EV's are a different issues and, as has been publicized recently, can act as storage devices themselves. This could reduce the dependency on any required grid storage facilities. Difficult to make a call on that given the fast moving development of possible fuel alternatives for vehicles. No point developing a grid based on EV battery storage if we move to hydrogen....

EVs cannot be much more than a short term buffer for the grid.  A system based on that would fall on its face with a short spell of weather with no wind.  The total capacity would not be big enough, and of course everyone would disconnect from the grid if they thought they couldn't recharge for days on end.

 

[winkie]

1 minute ago, kzb said:

If we are going down the heat pump route much better standards of insulation are needed at the same time.

I'm all for the grants.

 

EVs cannot be much more than a short term buffer for the grid.  A system based on that would fall on its face with a short spell of weather with no wind.  The total capacity would not be big enough, and of course everyone would disconnect from the grid if they thought they couldn't recharge for days on end.

 

Without grants to nudge change things won't happen......how long-term committed are TPTB?

 

[kzb]

1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Yes huge profit from all that Wind and Solar. 

Are the British paying the subsidy on the wind and solar power sold to France ?

[Confusion of VIs]

1 minute ago, kzb said:

It won't just be me either.  There will be millions of us.  Forcing £50k costs onto all households will be electoral suicide.

BTW, I am not out of date, I am ahead of the curve.  No-one has come out with a half way feasible plan for net zero yet.  You certainly haven't, if anyone parrots anything it is you.  You keep parroting marketing material at us.

Well until the Greens turn up with a magic money tree you can all just keep paying bills that are 3 or 4 times times as big as they need be. 

Back in the real world. Yesterday the Dept. of Business and Energy announced the results of its latest renewable energy supply auction which secured 11GW of renewable electricity at a fraction of the price of gas power.

Including

2.2GW solar at £0.046/kWh

7GW offshore wind at £0.037/kWh

887MW onshore wind at £0.42/kWh

 

 

[Confusion of VIs]

4 minutes ago, winkie said:

Without grants to nudge change things won't happen......how long-term committed are TPTB?

 

There have been grants for years (RHI = almost giving away ground source heat pumps until a couple of years ago) but these are now being phased out as the technology matures. 

The idea of grants for everybody is pie in the sky. 

[kzb]

Just now, Confusion of VIs said:

Well until the Greens turn up with a magic money tree you can all just keep paying bills that are 3 or 4 times times as big as they need be. 

Back in the real world. Yesterday the Dept. of Business and Energy announced the results of its latest renewable energy supply auction which secured 11GW of renewable electricity at a fraction of the price of gas power.

Including

2.2GW solar at £0.046/kWh

7GW offshore wind at £0.037/kWh

887MW onshore wind at £0.42/kWh

 

 

What did I say about parroting marketing material?

I'm not interested in any price quotes which don't quote me the price of keeping me supplied 24/7 and all year round.  These prices do not do that. 

I keep telling you this.

 

[winkie]

5 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

There have been grants for years (RHI = almost giving away ground source heat pumps until a couple of years ago) but these are now being phased out as the technology matures. 

The idea of grants for everybody is pie in the sky. 

Not asking for grants, not expecting grants.......that is why change will not be happening as quick or as smoothly as some might wish for, I do understand there are those with a financial vested interest in alternatives, the same as those that have a more interest in how the world is changing because of what the greed and selfishness of humanity is doing to it.

[kzb]

5 hours ago, winkie said:

Without grants to nudge change things won't happen......how long-term committed are TPTB?

 

That's what I'm saying.  To meet targets there have to be some very generous grants.  That is particularly so if we go down the route of a disseminated power system as being discussed here.

That's going to stick in the craw of many on here, but if they want net zero by 2050 there is no getting round the cost whichever options are chosen.

[skinnylattej]

2 hours ago, kzb said:

That's what I'm saying.  To meet targets there have to be some very generous grants.  That is particularly so if we go down the route of a disseminated power system as being discussed here.

That's going to stick in the craw of many on here, but if they want net zero by 2050 there is no getting round the cost whichever options are chosen.

Except any generous grant will have to be paid by the taxpayer, which is us!

[kzb]

19 minutes ago, skinnylattej said:

Except any generous grant will have to be paid by the taxpayer, which is us!

Yes we pay for it one way or the other.

[winkie]

9 hours ago, kzb said:

Yes we pay for it one way or the other.

.......and others will make from it one way or another.

[kzb]

12 minutes ago, winkie said:

.......and others will make from it one way or another.

They already are.   The oil companies of course, but a lesser-known beneficiary are the wind power suppliers who still benefit from the old subsidy system (pre-CfD). 

They get a flat rate subsidy per MWh but also sell their power at the market price.  They retain the subsidy however high the market price goes.

[byron78]

EDF has been nationalised over in France.

[markyh]

20 hours ago, kzb said:

What did I say about parroting marketing material?

I'm not interested in any price quotes which don't quote me the price of keeping me supplied 24/7 and all year round.  These prices do not do that. 

I keep telling you this.

 

You, or anyone else have no right to cheap energy, shelter, heat, food or clean water. End Of.  Ponder that when your bills come in this Winter. To be given that EVERYONE ELSE would be forced to pay for those that didn't want to provide for themselves, once the majority decide it's not worth the effort to be productive as "other" are forced to provide for them, it becomes easier and easier for the minority productive to agree the majority unproductive and not needed and Genocide of them is a better option. 

So what you want will never happen politically, get a loan, and sort your own energy and insulation problems. 

[markyh]

29 minutes ago, byron78 said:

EDF has been nationalised over in France.

I heard they went bust because of the price caps. So now Frances high energy bills will been socialised via taxpayer money.  I wonder where the axe of these tax increases will fall, and on whom?  

[byron78]

20 minutes ago, markyh said:

I heard they went bust because of the price caps. So now Frances high energy bills will been socialised via taxpayer money.  I wonder where the axe of these tax increases will fall, and on whom?  

In France? They'll just make the rich pay more I expect.

[markyh]

3 minutes ago, byron78 said:

In France? They'll just make the rich pay more I expect.

Terrible, God bless being an independent nation and "Trusts" . 

 

[crash-and-burn]

26 minutes ago, markyh said:

I heard they went bust because of the price caps. So now Frances high energy bills will been socialised via taxpayer money.  I wonder where the axe of these tax increases will fall, and on whom?  

They haven't got bust, but I'm sure they must be struggling. The state has an 84% stake, but can buy the rest for around 5 billion euros. To put that into perspective that's about 1/9th of the cost the UK lost to its track and trace app. There's a lot of investment going into new nuclear power stations, as the older ones come towards the end of their lifespan.

[byron78]

1 hour ago, markyh said:

Terrible, God bless being an independent nation and "Trusts" . 

 

Yes. God forbid anyone earning a fortune pays tax like all the rest of us.

[byron78]

1 hour ago, crash-and-burn said:

They haven't got bust, but I'm sure they must be struggling. The state has an 84% stake, but can buy the rest for around 5 billion euros. To put that into perspective that's about 1/9th of the cost the UK lost to its track and trace app. There's a lot of investment going into new nuclear power stations, as the older ones come towards the end of their lifespan.

There's huge French state investment to move away from fossil fuels, apparently.

[yelims]

There was an interesting article in times examining interesting developments for last month

Since Europe doesn’t have enough LNG (Germany really really ******ed up) there’s a glut of LNG gas in UK, but the pipeline to continent already maxed out

so gas is being burned in both UK and Ireland for last few months and electricity is flowing east at more or less max capacity of the interconnectors 

Like I said Germany really ******ed up in spending a trillion on renewables and still getting into bed with Russians and not building lng terminals, they also banned fracking, something like 10-15 years of gas in Germany alone 

[kzb]

4 hours ago, markyh said:

You, or anyone else have no right to cheap energy, shelter, heat, food or clean water. End Of.  Ponder that when your bills come in this Winter. To be given that EVERYONE ELSE would be forced to pay for those that didn't want to provide for themselves, once the majority decide it's not worth the effort to be productive as "other" are forced to provide for them, it becomes easier and easier for the minority productive to agree the majority unproductive and not needed and Genocide of them is a better option. 

So what you want will never happen politically, get a loan, and sort your own energy and insulation problems. 

I think you responded to the wrong post there.

[Saving For a Space Ship]

https://dontpay.uk/

Website calling for an energy payment strike

https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/vuw6bq/dontpayuk_website_calling_for_an_energy_payment/

Edited July 9, 2022 by Saving For a Space Ship

[bomberbrown]

4 hours ago, Saving For a Space Ship said:

https://dontpay.uk/

The irony!  https://dont-pay-6ffc.myshopify.com/products/dont-pay-energy-bills-oct-1st-leaflet

[Confusion of VIs]

On 07/07/2022 at 16:33, kzb said:

What did I say about parroting marketing material?

I'm not interested in any price quotes which don't quote me the price of keeping me supplied 24/7 and all year round.  These prices do not do that. 

Marketing being binding contract with companies that have passed now very tough financial stability checks?

NB I assume you regard Hinkley as just marketing.

On 07/07/2022 at 16:33, kzb said:

I keep telling you this.

I know and after all this time you still don't understand why your statement doesn't make any sense.

When the National Grid decides we need to let contracts for 24*7 power that is what the auctions will be for. However, we are still years away from needing that and in the meantime the cost of grid scale storage is rapidly falling.    

On 07/07/2022 at 16:44, winkie said:

Not asking for grants, not expecting grants.......that is why change will not be happening as quick or as smoothly as some might wish for, I do understand there are those with a financial vested interest in alternatives, the same as those that have a more interest in how the world is changing because of what the greed and selfishness of humanity is doing to it.

We are past needing blanket grants, 20yr low interest loans recovered via power bills (so out of the savings), forcing landlords to upgrade their properties to at least a B standard and developers to +A for all new properties  would be a good way forward. 

On 08/07/2022 at 11:14, kzb said:

They already are.   The oil companies of course, but a lesser-known beneficiary are the wind power suppliers who still benefit from the old subsidy system (pre-CfD). 

They get a flat rate subsidy per MWh but also sell their power at the market price.  They retain the subsidy however high the market price goes.

That's got a guaranteed minimum price, you thought it was a massive subsidy but it turns out they no longer need it.  Those companies took the risk of investing in a immature technology that turned out well, many people thought they would lose money at those prices.