How do you stop the migrants crossing the channel

[Insane]

6 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I confess, I am slightly irked that you edited out part of my post.

Well the privilege of this site is we can quote parts of peoples post or all of them that is the choice of the person who replies to posts. I edited out part of your post as to me it was not relevant which is my choice. 

10 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

For the rest, it is certainly anecdotal, but very reasonable. I will say, they young are generally happy with the modern world and old are generally against it. We will start from this and then express our concern for the young on that basis. Old people often voted Leave "for the younger generation", whereas the young voted Remain for exactly the same people.

 

Huge Generalisation there. 

What do you term young ? 20,25,30 ? Many people in their mid 30's who have started families where both partners have to work and realise their parents bought a house with 1 wage not 2 starting families 10 years younger I find hard to understand why they would feel happy with the modern world , maybe the old are generally against the modern world as they can see how conned people have been. 

[Insane]

8 minutes ago, skinnylattej said:

I do agree with the statement that we have chronic unemployment.  Several of the factories on the local industrial estate have signs up advertising vacancies, many of the local care homes are desperate for more staff, the daffodils are rotting in the fields, the food preparation and processors are short of people and have raised wages significantly for the first time in 12 or may be 15 years.  Friend of mine runs a logistics company, and they are short of truck drivers, especially those willing to do the longer journeys such as to Eastern Europe.  At the moment there is a shortage of plasterers in the area, and gas fitters are coming from Plymouth to work in central Cornwall.  I could give many more examples varying from low-skilled labour the jobs that require a high level of training where there is a shortage of people to take these roles in SW and S England.

Could the lack of workers in the SW be anything to do with the lack of affordable housing in the SW ?

We might not have high unemployment at this exact moment in time but through the last 40 decades there has been plenty of high unemployment while we were importing workers. 

[Insane]

Sorry meant 4 Decades not 40

[Bob8]

7 minutes ago, Insane said:

Well the privilege of this site is we can quote parts of peoples post or all of them that is the choice of the person who replies to posts. I edited out part of your post as to me it was not relevant which is my choice. 

Huge Generalisation there. 

What do you term young ? 20,25,30 ? Many people in their mid 30's who have started families where both partners have to work and realise their parents bought a house with 1 wage not 2 starting families 10 years younger I find hard to understand why they would feel happy with the modern world , maybe the old are generally against the modern world as they can see how conned people have been. 

You edited it out because you though it was irrelevent, then suggested the bit you deleted I should have written as it was relevent? Well, that is hard to follow?

And, yes it is a huge generalisation. You can see that in what I wrote, ". I will say, they young are generally happy with the modern world and old are generally against it.". When I wrote "generally" it was a reference to it being a generalisation. You had produced an anecdote, which I accepted. Nonetheless, it is a generasation that has clear truth to it.

I wrote earlier about how I can see my views have been shaped by my circumstances. I get the impression you consider yoursel a logical thinker who is above this?

I think, most* young people (and it is clearly a relative rather than absolute term) would be in favour of higher wages. As a Generation X, we were the first ones who were graduates, even a PhD in my case, and struggled to afford the rent in shared houses or flats. Typically, we started to favour politicians who were so keen on valuing labour that they named their party after it. Meanwhile, the older generation started to vote for the Tories. Generally,* the young want to improve the world and the old protect what we have.

*Yes, most not all. It is a generalisation

[debtlessmanc]

5 hours ago, steve99 said:

Why would skilled people vote for their own demise?   This is  what has happened in Australia, lots of skilled immigrants bought in to swamp the market, create a compliant workforce too meek to stand up for themselves in case they get sent home and which has prevented many  younger people being recruited and trained up in industries they thought they were qualifying for. Employers always and without exception shouted 'shortages' when what they really mean is laziness (re training) and low wages.  If you are talking about professors needed at a very high level, well that's such a rarefied atmosphere as to make no difference to to 99% of people in the UK.  Apart from that. If we didn't have that inner core of absolute racists that were taken In by Farage and his ridiculous rhetoric and posters then Brexit would never have happened. I have never heard a white or otherwise coloured person say they wanted Brexit but with the proviso that we bring in skilled workers as wanted by employers. This is rewriting history. Brexit was 100% anti any and all immigration. You know this.

Even in my own family my eldest brother is a casual racist who employed cheap polish labour in his factory and voted remain for this and to get to his appartment in spain easily,. My middle brother is a labour voting lexiteer. Your arguments do not hold up on this alone. The problem with FOM is that it, unless the countries have similar levels of corruption/social provision it is a night mare. Since joining the EU Bulgaria and Romainia have moved down the openess rankings as all the young idealistic people have left and the old and corrupt remain behind, Not only that but their health systems have collapsed. Meanwhile Greece owes more than ever. The attitude is that the EU will sort this out in the end. The problem there is that the problems of eg tax evasion is so engrained in some states that these will simply ignore the EU upto the point at which the money taps are turned off and then will de facto leave the EU.

100's billions of euros pour into German banks every year from the wealthy in southern states. They know their countries better than you or i do and they are talking appropriate precautions.

[Insane]

51 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

You edited it out because you though it was irrelevent, then suggested the bit you deleted I should have written as it was relevent? Well, that is hard to follow?

I think you are a bit lost I edited out as I though it was not relevant to me.  End of Story. 

54 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

And, yes it is a huge generalisation. You can see that in what I wrote, ". I will say, they young are generally happy with the modern world and old are generally against it.". When I wrote "generally" it was a reference to it being a generalisation. You had produced an anecdote, which I accepted. Nonetheless, it is a generasation that has clear truth to it.

I wrote earlier about how I can see my views have been shaped by my circumstances. I get the impression you consider yoursel a logical thinker who is above this?

How do you measure how happy a whole generation is ? Compared to another generation ? 

Where did I say I was above anything ? I think your a bit sarcastic to be honest as you don't like me not agreeing with you. 

 

[Insane]

5 hours ago, steve99 said:

Why would skilled people vote for their own demise? 

Why would unskilled or semi skilled so they vote Brexit and you accuse them of Racism. 

[Staffsknot]

3 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Even in my own family my eldest brother is a casual racist who employed cheap polish labour in his factory and voted remain for this and to get to his appartment in spain easily,. My middle brother is a labour voting lexiteer. Your arguments do not hold up on this alone. The problem with FOM is that it, unless the countries have similar levels of corruption/social provision it is a night mare. Since joining the EU Bulgaria and Romainia have moved down the openess rankings as all the young idealistic people have left and the old and corrupt remain behind, Not only that but their health systems have collapsed. Meanwhile Greece owes more than ever. The attitude is that the EU will sort this out in the end. The problem there is that the problems of eg tax evasion is so engrained in some states that these will simply ignore the EU upto the point at which the money taps are turned off and then will de facto leave the EU.

100's billions of euros pour into German banks every year from the wealthy in southern states. They know their countries better than you or i do and they are talking appropriate precautions.

Aren't these family members who cost you a testicle though by beating you senseless through your childhood - hardly hold them up as typical can we. So regard them as exploitative - well they also kicked the shit out of you to the point of hospital so we were hardly expecting Mother Teresa

Edited January 20, 2022 by Staffsknot

[skinnylattej]

12 hours ago, Insane said:

Could the lack of workers in the SW be anything to do with the lack of affordable housing in the SW ?

We might not have high unemployment at this exact moment in time but through the last 40 decades there has been plenty of high unemployment while we were importing workers. 

Without doubt, the high cost of housing has made matters worse.

In agriculture and food prep most of the workers were EEs, and Brexit made some change their plans.  Also the change in the exchange rate (£: Euro) made working in Germany more attractive especially for the Poles, who could then travel home very easily.

Some of the food prep factories treated their workforce very badly, and some of the gangmasters were exploitative.

High housing costs are affecting all sectors, every week there is another story about a nurse who can't find anywhere to live in Cornwall.

Cornwall Council have started building wooden sheds in carparks to house people.  For a developed country, this is a disgrace.

[Insane]

3 hours ago, skinnylattej said:

Cornwall Council have started building wooden sheds in carparks to house people.  For a developed country, this is a disgrace.

Yet when people say we want less immigration as there is a chronic housing shortage the race card can get pulled. My relatives last week who could not give me a reason to vote Labour also questioned if homelessness had risen.  

 

[dugsbody]

46 minutes ago, Insane said:

Yet when people say we want less immigration as there is a chronic housing shortage the race card can get pulled. My relatives last week who could not give me a reason to vote Labour also questioned if homelessness had risen.  

 

The chronic housing shortage where we have fewer people per dwelling than 20 years ago?

[Insane]

1 minute ago, dugsbody said:

The chronic housing shortage where we have fewer people per dwelling than 20 years ago?

There are many reasons why we have a chronic housing shortage. Why do you pick just one ? 

 

 

[dugsbody]

4 minutes ago, Insane said:

There are many reasons why we have a chronic housing shortage. Why do you pick just one ? 

 

I don't think having more dwellings per capita than 20 years ago is a "reason" for a housing shortage.

[Insane]

1 minute ago, dugsbody said:

I don't think having more dwellings per capita than 20 years ago is a "reason" for a housing shortage.

But we don't do we the population has risen faster than the amount of dwellings built over the last 20 years. 

[dugsbody]

6 minutes ago, Insane said:

But we don't do we the population has risen faster than the amount of dwellings built over the last 20 years. 

Last time I checked the stats we had more dwellings per capita than 20 years ago. That is what I've been trying to explain to you for the last several years.

 

[IMHAL]

5 minutes ago, Insane said:

But we don't do we the population has risen faster than the amount of dwellings built over the last 20 years. 

The biggest initial effect of Brexit was that EU'ers have stopped comming and many have left. I don't see the housing issue having been solved by Brexit, in fact seems to have got worse, ergo that cannot have been the first order factor.

You'd be nearer the the mark if you loooked more closely at the banks/lending and the close relationship between builders and the government, all issues that Brexit has had no effect on.

It seems to me that you are behind the curve in understanding the underlying issues with housing and are just rabbitting the same old nonesense guff that got us into this mess. 

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, Insane said:

Yet when people say we want less immigration as there is a chronic housing shortage the race card can get pulled. My relatives last week who could not give me a reason to vote Labour also questioned if homelessness had risen. 

There isn't a chronic housing shortage. There are more houses than ever, every city, town, and village is surrounded by a belt of unsightly flab. Therefore the only conclusion is that there's a people excess.

[Insane]

Just now, dugsbody said:

Last time I checked the stats we had more dwellings per capita than 20 years ago. That is what I've been trying to explain to you for the last several years.

Really

Well I Just checked the population 2002 was 59,326,294 population 2022 68,497 907 an increase in population of 9,171,613 over those 20 years. 

In 2018 the House Building Federation said we were short by 4 million houses and our best year for building was 2017 when 170,000 were built. Which makes me conclude that we are not building enough houses to deal with the chronic housing shortage. 

[dugsbody]

1 minute ago, Insane said:

Really

Well I Just checked the population 2002 was 59,326,294 population 2022 68,497 907 an increase in population of 9,171,613 over those 20 years. 

In 2018 the House Building Federation said we were short by 4 million houses and our best year for building was 2017 when 170,000 were built. Which makes me conclude that we are not building enough houses to deal with the chronic housing shortage. 

I just had a brief look to see if I could find the data again. What we need is population and number of dwellings in 2002 vs 2020.

[Riedquat]

14 minutes ago, Insane said:

But we don't do we the population has risen faster than the amount of dwellings built over the last 20 years. 

Quick Google results:

No. of dwellings in 2001 - 21 207 000. No. in 2020 - 24 658 000. A rather significant, scary increase - 16%.

UK population in 2001 - 59.12 million, 67.22 million in 2020. A still ludicrous increase, but less - 14%.

[Insane]

6 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

The biggest initial effect of Brexit was that EU'ers have stopped comming and many have left. I don't see the housing issue having been solved by Brexit, in fact seems to have got worse, ergo that cannot have been the first order factor.

You'd be nearer the the mark if you loooked more closely at the banks/lending and the close relationship between builders and the government, all issues that Brexit has had no effect on.

It seems to me that you are behind the curve in understanding the underlying issues with housing and are just rabbitting the same old nonesense guff that got us into this mess. 

But the population has increased since 2016 from 66,297,944 to 68,497,944 an increase of over 2 million people that is why the housing issue has not been solved. 

The nonsense is you spouting that Brexit caused the population to decrease. 

[Insane]

9 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

There isn't a chronic housing shortage. There are more houses than ever, every city, town, and village is surrounded by a belt of unsightly flab. Therefore the only conclusion is that there's a people excess.

Well depends how you word it the people excess has exceeded the increase in build. Causing the chronic shortage. 

[Riedquat]

3 minutes ago, Insane said:

Well depends how you word it the people excess has exceeded the increase in build. Causing the chronic shortage. 

No it hasn't  - see numbers I posted above. Increase in the number of houses has outpaced growth in the number of people.

[steve99]

17 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

The biggest initial effect of Brexit was that EU'ers have stopped comming and many have left. I don't see the housing issue having been solved by Brexit, in fact seems to have got worse, ergo that cannot have been the first order factor.

You'd be nearer the the mark if you loooked more closely at the banks/lending and the close relationship between builders and the government, all issues that Brexit has had no effect on.

It seems to me that you are behind the curve in understanding the underlying issues with housing and are just rabbitting the same old nonesense guff that got us into this mess. 

This is the case. Housing shortage is deliberate policy, used to enhance the personal holdings of Tory MPs, their voters, the big builders who are incentivised to drip feed the market and for the freehold owners of apartment blocks where the service charging industry is now seen as an 'asset class' thanks to high prices which force people into flats rather than houses.    As for Cornwall, what it needs is a few 1000 caravans filled with the local priced-out and the boat people immigrants, all parked up close to employers who want them. Now that would be a 'Britannia unchained' flexible workforce and could move them around with the seasons. 

[steve99]

19 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

There isn't a chronic housing shortage. There are more houses than ever, every city, town, and village is surrounded by a belt of unsightly flab. Therefore the only conclusion is that there's a people excess.

A bit like saying 'there is an excess of money' and there is but as we know there is also an excess of poverty.  All government policy in the long run and who they favour or not.