Yellow Vest Protests

[Insane]

2 hours ago, Big Orange said:

Well, Thatcher placcated enough people at the time, there was a service/retail/tech boom in the 80s/90s West to disguise the crumbling of moribund manufacturing, her policies kinda worked in the short to medium term (for the professionals and rich), and there wasn't 15 to 20 years of Neo-Liberalism thoroughly discrediting itself and endlessly shuffling from one intractable global crisis to the next yet.

Thatcher placated many people by selling them their council house at a knock down price. She also knocked down Income Tax. The fact that most of what came off the basic rate of income tax went back on NI went over peoples heads , many believed the lie that NI was not TAX. 

[simvastatin]

2 hours ago, nothernsoul said:

The public in western countries have seen their wages stagnate and job security and working conditions become more precarious. Cheap debt and feel good house price wealth masked this for a while. As a protest we have seen the establishment elite, hilary clinton and her ilk, being defeated. Macron is an establishment figure, made to look fresh and new, who won because the anti globalist candidate he ran against was too unpalatable. However, his terrible approval ratings and these protests, make a lie of the claims from so called progressives, that if only we had sensible managerialist "centrists" like yvette copper instead of corbyn, everything would be great. 

You missed the manufacturing base moving to china, in relative terms western europe is not as rich as it was 20 years ago. 

[thecrashingisles]

6 hours ago, nothernsoul said:

It seems similar to social unrest under thatcher in 1980s, miners strike. Macron is trying to dismantle the rigid french system of employment laws and benefits that favours workers, move from direct taxation to indirect taxation as happened in uk. He was created and funded by vested interests to do this under the guise of centrism. Unlike thatcher who won a landslide, he only has mandate from a quarter of voting public(first round), then won in the second round as it was either him or a fascist. 

Curiously Thatcher's highest vote share was actually in 1979, before the landslides in 1983 and 1987.

[oatbake]

The timing of the yellow vest thing is interesting... rioting is normally a summer activity. I can't imagine it's much fun coming up against water cannons in December...

I was watching a guy going around interviewing the demonstrators and the whole thing sounds like it's escalated from fuel tax protests to a wider protest against the "cost of living". I wonder how long it will l be until the idea catches on over here... 

Edited December 2, 2018 by oatbake

[PeanutButter]

“Paris prosecutor Remy Heitz said 378 people were in custody, including 33 under the age of 18. He said many of those arrested in battles with police were men aged between 30 and 40, often from regions far from Paris, who had “come to fight police while claiming to be part of the gilets jaunes movement”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/02/paris-riots-worst-unrest-decade-with-shops-and-cars-set-alight-gilets-jaunes

 

As ever, it escalates.

I (cynic) do wonder how much Big Oil has spent on astroturfers infiltrating these groups. A few commenters online, a few ‘thought leaders’...

 

[simvastatin]

The Yellow Jackets Could Come to Brexit Britain

The protests in France should be a warning that high levels of distrust and lower living standards could produce unrest in the U.K. too.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-12-03/brexit-britain-could-face-its-own-gilets-jaunes

[No One]

17 hours ago, nothernsoul said:

The public in western countries have seen their wages stagnate and job security and working conditions become more precarious. Cheap debt and feel good house price wealth masked this for a while. As a protest we have seen the establishment elite, hilary clinton and her ilk, being defeated. Macron is an establishment figure, made to look fresh and new, who won because the anti globalist candidate he ran against was too unpalatable. However, his terrible approval ratings and these protests, make a lie of the claims from so called progressives, that if only we had sensible managerialist "centrists" like yvette copper instead of corbyn, everything would be great. 

Macron wont make it to a second term that's for sure. Maddame president?

[MancTom]

6 hours ago, PeanutButter said:

“Paris prosecutor Remy Heitz said 378 people were in custody, including 33 under the age of 18. He said many of those arrested in battles with police were men aged between 30 and 40, often from regions far from Paris, who had “come to fight police while claiming to be part of the gilets jaunes movement”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/02/paris-riots-worst-unrest-decade-with-shops-and-cars-set-alight-gilets-jaunes

 

As ever, it escalates.

I (cynic) do wonder how much Big Oil has spent on astroturfers infiltrating these groups. A few commenters online, a few ‘thought leaders’...

 

could also be the russians funding them in an attempt to destabilise a major european country.

The syrian war started off with protests and just escalated and escalated. Before long outside parties were arming the various factions.

[ElPapasito]

What funding do they need exactly?   Bus fares into Paris?

[Fishfinger]

7 hours ago, PeanutButter said:

“Paris prosecutor Remy Heitz said 378 people were in custody, including 33 under the age of 18. He said many of those arrested in battles with police were men aged between 30 and 40, often from regions far from Paris, who had “come to fight police while claiming to be part of the gilets jaunes movement”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/02/paris-riots-worst-unrest-decade-with-shops-and-cars-set-alight-gilets-jaunes

 

As ever, it escalates.

I (cynic) do wonder how much Big Oil has spent on astroturfers infiltrating these groups. A few commenters online, a few ‘thought leaders’...

 

Scratch harder and I bet underneath Mr Soros is stirring things up...  

[PeanutButter]

22 minutes ago, Fishfinger said:

Scratch harder and I bet underneath Mr Soros is stirring things up...  

I don't believe in Soros. 

[PeanutButter]

1 hour ago, MancTom said:

could also be the russians funding them in an attempt to destabilise a major european country.

The syrian war started off with protests and just escalated and escalated. Before long outside parties were arming the various factions.

It would be for political reasons then, rather than economic. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/744232/crude-oil-main-supplier-countries-france/

It's not as if they don't have form in meddling but something makes me want to follow the money (or rather, loss of money). 

[kzb]

8 hours ago, PeanutButter said:

“Paris prosecutor Remy Heitz said 378 people were in custody, including 33 under the age of 18. He said many of those arrested in battles with police were men aged between 30 and 40, often from regions far from Paris, who had “come to fight police while claiming to be part of the gilets jaunes movement”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/02/paris-riots-worst-unrest-decade-with-shops-and-cars-set-alight-gilets-jaunes

 

As ever, it escalates.

I (cynic) do wonder how much Big Oil has spent on astroturfers infiltrating these groups. A few commenters online, a few ‘thought leaders’...

 

Notice the number 33 in the report? 

[kzb]

I apologise for laziness but can someone summarise exactly what are the proposed tax changes?

How do these changes compare with taxes in UK?

[PeanutButter]

1 minute ago, kzb said:

Notice the number 33 in the report? 

No. I don't notice numbers as a rule. Seems futile.

[Freki]

1 hour ago, kzb said:

I apologise for laziness but can someone summarise exactly what are the proposed tax changes?

How do these changes compare with taxes in UK?

Diesel fuel duty will match gas fuel duty. 

[kzb]

6 minutes ago, Freki said:

Diesel fuel duty will match gas fuel duty. 

But what does that mean in euros?  I assume you mean petrol when you say gas?

[Freki]

2 minutes ago, kzb said:

But what does that mean in euros?  I assume you mean petrol when you say gas?

Correct, but it is irrelevant now to the situation. The impact was not a problem in itself. It was just the one too many little tax tweak that the French gvt is so fond of. No structural reform about gvt spending has happened and people are tired about being tax donkeys. 

The current French gvt has done stuff, but it is not enough and the signal sent with reducing tax on capital is making JAMs take to the street after this nth stealth tax increase.

[Freki]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/03/are-the-french-hit-especially-hard-by-fuel-taxes-protests

good analysis on the current cost. 

Quote

Italy

Unleaded petrol prices are considerably higher in Italy than in the rest of the EU. But despite a populist government in power and a struggling economy, Italians have so far shown little sign of joining their French counterparts in protesting on the specific issue of fuel prices.

French people are not protesting on this specific issue, it was the spark. I am convinced any reversal won't affect the movement's intensity.

[kzb]

20 minutes ago, Freki said:

Correct, but it is irrelevant now to the situation. The impact was not a problem in itself. It was just the one too many little tax tweak that the French gvt is so fond of. No structural reform about gvt spending has happened and people are tired about being tax donkeys. 

The current French gvt has done stuff, but it is not enough and the signal sent with reducing tax on capital is making JAMs take to the street after this nth stealth tax increase.

If it was over here the BBC would be telling us about the Russian social media interference.  I also imagine the protesters would be "Far Right".

I notice someone else has been killed now, and they are being classed as the worst riots since 1968.

[kzb]

6 minutes ago, Freki said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/03/are-the-french-hit-especially-hard-by-fuel-taxes-protests

good analysis on the current cost. 

French people are not protesting on this specific issue, it was the spark. I am convinced any reversal won't affect the movement's intensity.

I imagine the Vertes will be mobilising to support these fuel taxes because they fight climate change?

[MancTom]

10 minutes ago, kzb said:

If it was over here the BBC would be telling us about the Russian social media interference.  I also imagine the protesters would be "Far Right".

I notice someone else has been killed now, and they are being classed as the worst riots since 1968.

the news has been saying the protestors are infiltrated by the far right here....

[PeanutButter]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/03/paris-streets-riots-violence

Quote

 

The gilets jaunes do have a series of demands but they are not accepted by all. They range from the abolition of next month’s planned rise in green taxes on petrol and diesel, to a referendum to impeach Macron, to a new constitution in which all laws would be decided by popular vote.

The yellow vests do have informal leaders or spokespeople but they are rejected or disputed or threatened with violence by other gilets jaunes as soon as they emerge. Part of the movement is faux-Maoist in pushing its hatred of politicians to the point of hating any would-be politicians who emerge from their own ranks.

A second attempt by the yellow vests to create a delegation to meet the prime minister, Édouard Philippe, will be made this week. Even if a programme of negotiations emerges, it is unlikely to be accepted by the blindly angry people I saw on the streets of Paris last Saturday. Will Paris burn again? Quite probably.

 

Until they run out of money is my guess. 

[zugzwang]

Potentially, another huge hit for Steve Keen. Two years ago France was a (perhaps) surprising pick on his future debt zombies roster alongside China, Canada, Australia, Sweden, Norway and South Korea.

But the numbers don't lie.

 

[kzb]

3 minutes ago, PeanutButter said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/03/paris-streets-riots-violence

Until they run out of money is my guess. 

Usually rioting is a summer sport.  The temperature has to be over 20-odd degrees.  They must be exceptionally wound up by the Russians to be rioting in the cold.