onlooker Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 8 minutes ago, Hullabaloo82 said: This is just ******** though isn't it? Look at that case of the Jamaican guy that's in the press at the moment; as of 2015 (ish?) all the trusts are required to charge at the point of access for non emergency care for anyone who can't prove UK residency so now a guy who's been paying taxes here for 30 years has to fork out 54 grand to get cancer treatment. Of course technically you could jump on the Eurostar the minute you feel a heart attack coming on. You carry on believing in your Romanian health tourist bogeyman though if it makes you feel better. Do everyone else a favour though and don't vote. My understanding was that he was asked to pay for treatment because he was proven to be in the UK illegally. If so it is likely he has been below the radar all the years, and I doubt paying tax. Anyway, the charging is a lottery, but those are the rules - are you suggesting that the rules be bent for the benefit of certain people and not for others? It is well known (and reported in the press) that some London hospitals are used by numerous Nigerians flying in late in their pregnancy - compared to having a baby in Lagos, it must be like heaven, and free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hullabaloo82 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 16 minutes ago, onlooker said: My understanding was that he was asked to pay for treatment because he was proven to be in the UK illegally. If so it is likely he has been below the radar all the years, and I doubt paying tax. Anyway, the charging is a lottery, but those are the rules - are you suggesting that the rules be bent for the benefit of certain people and not for others? It is well known (and reported in the press) that some London hospitals are used by numerous Nigerians flying in late in their pregnancy - compared to having a baby in Lagos, it must be like heaven, and free. I'm suggesting nothing of the sort. I'm just pointing out that if a guy who emigrated here back in the 1970s at a point where a reciprocal arrangement was in place between the UK and various commonwealth governments and would have been eligible for treatment until last year (and still would be if he'd bothered to apply for a passport) can't get it, it kind of flies in the face of the "health tourism" scare, particularly when you consider that NHS England brought in specific arrangements to counter this last year. I would love to see some actual stats about Nigerian mothers flying in to give birth that aren't just from hysterical Express articles about that lady who had triplets. The truth is, you will never be able to get rid of that completely; it's a cost of doing business for the nhs and something we citizens have to accept for the benefit of having a free at the point of use emergency care service. The alternative is a system where doctors are rummaging through your pockets for a passport or a credit card before treating you at a car crash site or similar. I know which system I prefer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habeas Domus Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 The elephant in the room is all the outstanding PFI contracts. Many hospitals are paying in excess of £100 million every year, which is mostly interest (at 6.7%) By 10 years into a 30 year contract they, or rather we as taxpayers, have already paid for the entire hospital so the remaining 20 years are all pure profit. When the govt talk about paying down the national debt, they don't include any of the PFI debt which is growing every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 11 hours ago, Hullabaloo82 said: This is just ******** though isn't it? Look at that case of the Jamaican guy that's in the press at the moment; as of 2015 (ish?) all the trusts are required to charge at the point of access for non emergency care for anyone who can't prove UK residency so now a guy who's been paying taxes here for 30 years has to fork out 54 grand to get cancer treatment. Of course technically you could jump on the Eurostar the minute you feel a heart attack coming on. You carry on believing in your Romanian health tourist bogeyman though if it makes you feel better. Do everyone else a favour though and don't vote. Yep. This is all made up. We are not an open free for all that the world comes to to take the piss. You carry on believing that. As noted above by another poster - these straight off the plane at Heathrow taxi to the hospital events are well known. And what's voting for to do with anything ? Romanian bogeyman ? Where do you get that from ? I get the feeling that you - like many other people - have a serious chip on their shoulder about people in the UK having had enough of how much a piss take this country has become. Well too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 12 hours ago, Hullabaloo82 said: This is just ******** though isn't it? No. House of Commons Public Accounts Committee report - NHS treatment for overseas patients Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hullabaloo82 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 3 hours ago, Will! said: No. House of Commons Public Accounts Committee report - NHS treatment for overseas patients Exactly - the NHS identified an issue, changed its regulations and now anybody without a UK passport or indefinite leave to to remain has to pay for non emergency care. Given the recent headline grabbing stories the rule is being enforced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hullabaloo82 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 5 hours ago, ccc said: Yep. This is all made up. We are not an open free for all that the world comes to to take the piss. You carry on believing that. As noted above by another poster - these straight off the plane at Heathrow taxi to the hospital events are well known. And what's voting for to do with anything ? Romanian bogeyman ? Where do you get that from ? I get the feeling that you - like many other people - have a serious chip on their shoulder about people in the UK having had enough of how much a piss take this country has become. Well too bad. Curiously light on facts aren't you? What I have a chip on my shoulder is how easily you allow yourselves to be led up the garden path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 35 minutes ago, Hullabaloo82 said: Exactly - the NHS identified an issue, changed its regulations and now anybody without a UK passport or indefinite leave to to remain has to pay for non emergency care. Given the recent headline grabbing stories the rule is being enforced. Nope. NHS did not identify an issue. The situation was so bad they were told to sort it out. There needs to be a better process in place. Therss no figures as the NHS is not recording them. The situation in some Londin hospital is pretty bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Hullabaloo82 said: Exactly - the NHS identified an issue, changed its regulations and now anybody without a UK passport or indefinite leave to to remain has to pay for non emergency care. Given the recent headline grabbing stories the rule is being enforced. No. The DHSS (as was) identified the issue and the government created charging regulations in 1982. The NHS ignored the issue for as long as it could. The ‘test’ (in the loosest sense of the word) is whether the patient is lawfully ordinarily resident in the UK. It has nothing to do with indefinite leave to remain. Edited March 30, 2018 by Will! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hullabaloo82 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Christ, this is like getting blood out of a stone. Is it or is it not the case that nhs regulations were changed to request payment up front for all non resident, non emergency care thereby negating the belief that the nhs "will just treat anyone Willy nilly"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 28 minutes ago, Hullabaloo82 said: Is it or is it not the case that nhs regulations were changed to request payment up front for all non resident, non emergency care thereby negating the belief that the nhs "will just treat anyone Willy nilly"? It is the case that the regulations were updated on 23rd October 2017. This was over 35 years after the issue was identified so it may take a while to negate that belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 On 30/03/2018 at 3:05 PM, Hullabaloo82 said: Curiously light on facts aren't you? What I have a chip on my shoulder is how easily you allow yourselves to be led up the garden path. What's voting got to do with anything ? Totally random. What did you mean by that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hullabaloo82 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, ccc said: What's voting got to do with anything ? Totally random. What did you mean by that ? Not rocket science is it? You're easily conned by propaganda and make poor voting decisions as a result. Brexit being a great example. Don't know which party you backed in the GE but the continued support of the conservatives by a section of the populace who is dictated to by the Murdoch press is another example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Hullabaloo82 said: Not rocket science is it? You're easily conned by propaganda and make poor voting decisions as a result. Brexit being a great example. Don't know which party you backed in the GE but the continued support of the conservatives by a section of the populace who is dictated to by the Murdoch press is another example. Wow. So to put it simply. People who disagree with your views on things shouldn't vote because they don't know what they are talking about. Wow. Wow. You should go and get yourself a beer and chill out about life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregBowman Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 On 30/03/2018 at 3:40 PM, Hullabaloo82 said: Christ, this is like getting blood out of a stone. Is it or is it not the case that nhs regulations were changed to request payment up front for all non resident, non emergency care thereby negating the belief that the nhs "will just treat anyone Willy nilly"? What absolute ****** -sorry. Childish its not my problem attitude to money collection is endemic throughout the NHS and GP's. Refusing to police such policies. When in the real world you wouldn't take that behaviour from a 22nd year old service engineer if he let non contract customers off paying. 'Royal College of GPs chairwoman Dr Gerada said: "My first duty is to my patient - I don't ask where they're from or whether they've got a credit card or whether they can pay." Disgusting behaviour from a civil servant and as I say Endemic So go and Chillax as CCC says stop singing the Red Flag and step into the real world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hullabaloo82 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 3 hours ago, GregBowman said: What absolute ****** -sorry. Childish its not my problem attitude to money collection is endemic throughout the NHS and GP's. Refusing to police such policies. When in the real world you wouldn't take that behaviour from a 22nd year old service engineer if he let non contract customers off paying. 'Royal College of GPs chairwoman Dr Gerada said: "My first duty is to my patient - I don't ask where they're from or whether they've got a credit card or whether they can pay." Disgusting behaviour from a civil servant and as I say Endemic So go and Chillax as CCC says stop singing the Red Flag and step into the real world Based on what evidence, Greg? Interestingly, when the NHS was set up the original report (Beveridge report?? Can't recall the exact name) concluded that yes there was a risk of "health tourism" but that the likely costs didn't outweigh the benefits of having a universal healthcare system. Read the link from further up the thread. The government's own stats estimate that they didn't charge for about 250 - 300m of costs relating to patients from abroad. Sounds like a big number but in the context of the NHS it's chicken feed; about .25 - .3% of an approx 90bn budget. Not close to material. Professionally, I have a fair bit of dealings with NHS financial bods. They worry about the ageing population, disputes with local authorities about paying for their care, primary care, recruitment, agency nurses. The phony internal market. These are all "real world" NHS front line issues. Billing for non residential care was an accounting wheeze nhs England came up with as a sticking plaster to try and claw back some of the massive deficit across the organisation. Do you really think it's disgusting for a doctor to prioritise care over establishing whether or not a patient has a line of credit in a life or death scenario? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 On 29/03/2018 at 11:15 PM, Hullabaloo82 said: The alternative is a system where doctors are rummaging through your pockets for a passport or a credit card before treating you at a car crash site or similar. I know which system I prefer. 6 minutes ago, Hullabaloo82 said: Do you really think it's disgusting for a doctor to prioritise care over establishing whether or not a patient has a line of credit in a life or death scenario? I wish you'd put that straw man down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 9 hours ago, Hullabaloo82 said: Based on what evidence, Greg? Interestingly, when the NHS was set up the original report (Beveridge report?? Can't recall the exact name) concluded that yes there was a risk of "health tourism" but that the likely costs didn't outweigh the benefits of having a universal healthcare system. Read the link from further up the thread. The government's own stats estimate that they didn't charge for about 250 - 300m of costs relating to patients from abroad. Sounds like a big number but in the context of the NHS it's chicken feed; about .25 - .3% of an approx 90bn budget. Not close to material. Professionally, I have a fair bit of dealings with NHS financial bods. They worry about the ageing population, disputes with local authorities about paying for their care, primary care, recruitment, agency nurses. The phony internal market. These are all "real world" NHS front line issues. Billing for non residential care was an accounting wheeze nhs England came up with as a sticking plaster to try and claw back some of the massive deficit across the organisation. Do you really think it's disgusting for a doctor to prioritise care over establishing whether or not a patient has a line of credit in a life or death scenario? Theres emergency treatment, where you are put in ambulance and rushed thru to the emergency room, whatever your immirmation/insurance status. Same happens in the US. Th reckoning comes later. Not sure what the rate of emergency/blue light admittance to to the rest is. I dount blue light admin is more than ~5% of NHS cases. All other cases, an admin will establish who you are. For elective procuedures and maternitry there are weeks/month before the treatment/procedure happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregBowman Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 15 hours ago, Hullabaloo82 said: Based on what evidence, Greg? Interestingly, when the NHS was set up the original report (Beveridge report?? Can't recall the exact name) concluded that yes there was a risk of "health tourism" but that the likely costs didn't outweigh the benefits of having a universal healthcare system. Read the link from further up the thread. The government's own stats estimate that they didn't charge for about 250 - 300m of costs relating to patients from abroad. Sounds like a big number but in the context of the NHS it's chicken feed; about .25 - .3% of an approx 90bn budget. Not close to material. Professionally, I have a fair bit of dealings with NHS financial bods. They worry about the ageing population, disputes with local authorities about paying for their care, primary care, recruitment, agency nurses. The phony internal market. These are all "real world" NHS front line issues. Billing for non residential care was an accounting wheeze nhs England came up with as a sticking plaster to try and claw back some of the massive deficit across the organisation. Do you really think it's disgusting for a doctor to prioritise care over establishing whether or not a patient has a line of credit in a life or death scenario? Firstly surely the quote was evidence at least of a way of thinking. But also agree with your point that its chicken feed. So lets get to to the nitty gritty: Get rid of the phony market Slash management Stop all selective surgery unless children (IVF obviously not required) Credit card or authenticated NI number at point of attendance unless life and death Charge for missed appointments Charged for fake 999 calls ie I have a hangover No prescriptions for over the counter medicines such as Asprin etc Introduce top up care charging so I can have private health care with money going to the NHS not an insurance company I am not talking about withdrawing care in a life or death scenario, its the low cost high volume incidents where money and is wasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 1 hour ago, GregBowman said: Firstly surely the quote was evidence at least of a way of thinking. But also agree with your point that its chicken feed. So lets get to to the nitty gritty: Get rid of the phony market Slash management Stop all selective surgery unless children (IVF obviously not required) Credit card or authenticated NI number at point of attendance unless life and death Charge for missed appointments Charged for fake 999 calls ie I have a hangover No prescriptions for over the counter medicines such as Asprin etc Introduce top up care charging so I can have private health care with money going to the NHS not an insurance company I am not talking about withdrawing care in a life or death scenario, its the low cost high volume incidents where money and is wasted. £20 for a GP appointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 On 30/03/2018 at 5:28 PM, spyguy said: Nope. NHS did not identify an issue. The situation was so bad they were told to sort it out. There needs to be a better process in place. Therss no figures as the NHS is not recording them. The situation in some Londin hospital is pretty bad. The relevant question is whether the cost of introducing a system for identifying eligibility and charging would ever be recovered. Having some experience of introducing internal charging within parts of the civil service, I doubt it would.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 10 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: The relevant question is whether the cost of introducing a system for identifying eligibility and charging would ever be recovered. Having some experience of introducing internal charging within parts of the civil service, I doubt it would.. Its not so much to recover costs. Its to stop people getting in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 17 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: The relevant question is whether the cost of introducing a system for identifying eligibility and charging would ever be recovered. Having some experience of introducing internal charging within parts of the civil service, I doubt it would.. If done competently then it would. I had the privilege of working with a very competent overseas visitors officer at the Luton & Dunstable hospital. He identified a definite deterrent effect: once word got around the community that the hospital was routinely making the correct residence checks then the number of people trying it on dropped measurably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millaise Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 (edited) >Incidents of serious harm was less then 0.4%. Almost every medic has killed someone at some stage, especially at the outset of a career. The secret is "never rat on a colleague". Harold Shipman was well-liked and a competent GP in that he deliberately set out to kill 250 people. The rest are so self-absorbed they just aren't aware of the deaths they are causing. The incident reporting rate is suspected to be about 1% of the true rate. Anyway, thank you for the MRSA. Keep up the good work. Edited April 1, 2018 by Millaise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 3 hours ago, spyguy said: £20 for a GP appointment. Do that in Germany, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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