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30% pay rises for NHS workers.


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2 hours ago, spyguy said:

If only the NHS wasnt such a lumbering monopoly, then staff could quit and work for a better org.

A fair point although privatisation would likely lead to exchanging one set of problems for another. I agree with the core principles of the NHS so would rather fix what we have/should have. Plus, the NHS already suffers from the batshit crazy internal competition system.

Besides, plenty of staff are leaving anyway. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42653542

The problem is one of cake. Everyone from management to patients wanting to have it and eat it and then get the NHS to fix their obesity and diabetes.

In theory it can be managed significantly better. More staff, curb function creep, and a lot of re-organisation. It's a mammoth task and no one is stepping up at present. Just throwing money at the problem and filling the gaps with immigrants. It won't last. Quality of staff and service will degrade over time.
 

Edited by Parkwell
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The inefficiencies in the NHS have nothing to do with local management (whether public or private) and everything to do with bad decisions foisted on them by central government and the Dept of Health.

e.g. PFI - inflexible and expensive, if the best way to fund new building is to bind yourself into a 50 year contract with massive balloon payments for the slightest alteration, then how come absolutely nobody in the private sector does things that way?

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I'd argue there's mismanagement at all levels but it does get worse the higher you go and meddling MPs are responsible for a lot. PFI was insane. New Labour did something quite phenomenal - put huge amounts of investment into the NHS and still crippled it and in some cases bankrupt it. Takes a special type of genius to do that.

 

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On 21/03/2018 at 9:53 AM, spyguy said:

Hello Jeremy.....

After 10 years of being a Nurse my friend pulls in 38k + a very good pension.

She does 3 12h shifts + one 8h shift  a week. Plus 2 nights a month.

80% of the time its pretty quiet. Theer is a reason why Nurses tend to being fat.

Her alternative is working 60h in a shop for about 14k. No pension.

And no chance of making a mistake, killing someone, and being grilled by the coroner and prosecuted.

 

You [email protected] embarrassing pr*ck.

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6 hours ago, SurgeonGeneral said:

And no chance of making a mistake, killing someone, and being grilled by the coroner and prosecuted.

 

You [email protected] embarrassing pr*ck.

Can you give me a list of NHS staff prosecuted?

The NHS delas lots a lot of very ill people.

But there are numerous people who go in with minor illnesses and come out much worse or dead. And there's very little come back.

Take the current Southern health death. The trust gets fined, not the people.

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8 hours ago, Parkwell said:

A fair point although privatisation would likely lead to exchanging one set of problems for another. I agree with the core principles of the NHS so would rather fix what we have/should have. Plus, the NHS already suffers from the batshit crazy internal competition system.

Besides, plenty of staff are leaving anyway. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42653542

The problem is one of cake. Everyone from management to patients wanting to have it and eat it and then get the NHS to fix their obesity and diabetes.

In theory it can be managed significantly better. More staff, curb function creep, and a lot of re-organisation. It's a mammoth task and no one is stepping up at present. Just throwing money at the problem and filling the gaps with immigrants. It won't last. Quality of staff and service will degrade over time.
 

Well... you could argument the current farce s all about pretending its not a monopoly, so they add layers of management and oversight.

Its a bt like stikcing a berak on elephant and pretending its a duck. It does not work.

No oterh heath service is operated like the NHS. For good reason. Even our nigh on socialist scandi neighbours dont try and and do a one model fits all.

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2 hours ago, spyguy said:

Can you give me a list of NHS staff prosecuted?

The NHS delas lots a lot of very ill people.

But there are numerous people who go in with minor illnesses and come out much worse or dead. And there's very little come back.

Take the current Southern health death. The trust gets fined, not the people.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/28/hadiza-bawa-garba-doctor-struck-off-over-six-year-old-boy-death-crowdfunding-drive


 

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4 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Nope. Im an embarrassing [email protected] Apparently.

I get similar responses when I challenge the BBC. Another org so perfect and beyond any criticism that I, a pleb, just have to accept it, in its all knowing brilliance.

I was more meaning the comparison with a bus driver also being in charge of lots of people lives every day. This having huge potential for court cases if they make a mistake etc.

As you say - it seems incredibly rare for a nurse or doctor to actually face changes for anything. I wouldn't really want it to be that way actually. Too much litigation and nonsense in this country already.

But yes its just another way in which they appear to be put up on a higher pedestal than other worthy occupations.

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6 hours ago, spyguy said:

Can you give me a list of NHS staff prosecuted?

The NHS delas lots a lot of very ill people.

But there are numerous people who go in with minor illnesses and come out much worse or dead. And there's very little come back.

Take the current Southern health death. The trust gets fined, not the people.

You know Casualty is a TV programme and not real right?

As posted previously (with supplied patient safety link), Incidents of serious harm or god forbid worse in Acute Hospitals was less then 0.4%. Off you feck with your BS.

Edited by PopGun
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6 minutes ago, PopGun said:

You know Casualty is a TV programme and not real right?

As posted previously (with supplied patient safety link), Incidents of serious harm or god forbid worse in Acute Hospitals was less then 0.4%. Off you feck with your BS.

So is this harm due to errors by staff ? If so that sounds pretty high.

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1 hour ago, ccc said:

So is this harm due to errors by staff ? If so that sounds pretty high.

Will include everything but it's a sound assumption.
Ideally it will be zero, but you'd struggle to find anywhere boasting that.

0.4 percent isn't exactly the picture being portrayed though, is it?

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1 minute ago, PopGun said:

Will include everything but it's a sound assumption.
Ideally it will be zero, but you'd struggle to find anywhere boasting that.

0.4 percent isn't exactly the picture being portrayed though, is it?

I'm not sure what picture being portrayed is ? I think Spyguy's point was that when these things happen its rarely the individual that gets collared for it. That seems reasonable to me ?

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Very good Spectator article on the NHS here:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/the-nhss-internal-market-is-an-expensive-catastrophe/

<<In 2010, the select committee on health divulged that even under Labour, the cost of administering the purchaser-provider split was 14 per cent of all NHS spending. Some have now estimated the cost to be in the region of 25 per cent>>

<<Far from being the saviour of the NHS, the internal market has been an unmitigated, costly and wasteful disaster. Hours of senior managers’ time is spent gathering data to show to commissioners and writing and bidding for contracts. It has resulted in a fractured, chaotic, disorganised system that is costly and inferior.

Quite how ludicrous and wasteful the situation is was demonstrated last month when it was reported that Virgin Care, part of Richard Branson’s empire, threatened to sue the NHS because it lost out on a contract to provide a three-year, £82 million deal covering health visitors, school nurses and occupational therapy services for children in the Surrey area.>>

So apparently private providers can now sue the NHS and we have no right to know how much they win in compensation.

 

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6 hours ago, spyguy said:

Nope. Im an embarrassing [email protected] Apparently.

I get similar responses when I challenge the BBC. Another org so perfect and beyond any criticism that I, a pleb, just have to accept it, in its all knowing brilliance.

You haven’t been challenging an organisation, you have been insulting individuals who have studied hard, work hard and make a difference to people’s lives on a daily basis. Not just nurses, also midwives, physios, radiographers, speech and language therapists, dieticians, pharmacists, biomedical scientists and many other staff on the same pay system.

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38 minutes ago, nothernsoul said:

The author of that spectator article doesnt sound like a raving leftwinger with an agenda to me. If he is suggesting the internal market is a major problem it would be sensible to do something about it. 

Unfortunately the only answer to market problems seems to be even more marketization. 

Every normal person can see what is going on but normal people are not running things.

The current "chief executive" has an MBA and a past in private health (From Wikipedia):

From 2004 to 2006 he was president of UnitedHealth Europe and moved on to be chief executive officer of UnitedHealthcare Medicare & Retirement and then president, Global Health, and UnitedHealth Group executive vice president of UnitedHealth Group

The previous one was promoted to chief exec. after leading the infamous Mid-Staffordshire trust.  Wikipedia also says this:

Nicholson claimed expenses of over £50,000 a year on top of a basic salary of £200,000 and benefits in kind of £37,600 at a time when he was asking the health service to make cuts of £20 billion by 2015.[ His claim was three times an MP's accommodation allowance.

 

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3 hours ago, ccc said:

I'm not sure what picture being portrayed is ? I think Spyguy's point was that when these things happen its rarely the individual that gets collared for it. That seems reasonable to me ?

The compensation culture is another thing on the list of what's wrong.

Also it was on BBC Text yesterday that an NHS Trust is being "fined" £2 million for something.  How the hell does that work and who pays the cost?  It can only be the patients !

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6 minutes ago, kzb said:

The compensation culture is another thing on the list of what's wrong.

Also it was on BBC Text yesterday that an NHS Trust is being "fined" £2 million for something.  How the hell does that work and who pays the cost?  It can only be the patients !

I have always wondered that......wrong doings, who pays the fine and who receives the fine.....;)

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1 hour ago, nayth said:

You haven’t been challenging an organisation, you have been insulting individuals who have studied hard, work hard and make a difference to people’s lives on a daily basis. Not just nurses, also midwives, physios, radiographers, speech and language therapists, dieticians, pharmacists, biomedical scientists and many other staff on the same pay system.

Dont forget the dedicated workers at the NHS homeopathy hospitals......

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