Electric car boom will fuel demand for power, says National Grid

[Kurt Barlow]

23 hours ago, reddog said:

Not really feasible, this is also why none diesel lorries are never likely to take off.  

I wish we could do more to convert these to CNG.

You can convert diesels to run on Ammonia. You would need a bigger fuel tank as Ammonia has half the calorific value of diesel but its doable.

[CunningPlan]

1 hour ago, kzb said:

I suspect the energy cost of handling liquid fuels isn't that large compared to their energy density.

Next point: as well as the generating capacity, one hell of an investment in vehicle charging facilities will be needed.

I don't have a drive or garage, in common with millions of others.  My car is parked on the street, and I don't have a guaranteed spot outside my home, again like millions of others. 

Exactly how am I going to charge my car overnight?

You aren't. You are clearly too poor to own a car. I think that is going to be how it works out, leaving nice empty roads for the 1%

[kzb]

8 minutes ago, CunningPlan said:

You aren't. You are clearly too poor to own a car. I think that is going to be how it works out, leaving nice empty roads for the 1%

But I don't live in London so I can't get to work without a car.

[Saving For a Space Ship]

6 hours ago, kzb said:

I suspect the energy cost of handling liquid fuels isn't that large compared to their energy density.

Next point: as well as the generating capacity, one hell of an investment in vehicle charging facilities will be needed.

I don't have a drive or garage, in common with millions of others.  My car is parked on the street, and I don't have a guaranteed spot outside my home, again like millions of others. 

Exactly how am I going to charge my car overnight?

London street lamps are being turned into electric car charging points

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/london-street-lamps-electric-car-charging-points-ubitricity-tech-firm-hounslow-council-richmond-a7809126.html

Edited July 27, 2017 by Saving For a Space Ship

[Saving For a Space Ship]

5 hours ago, Kurt Barlow said:

I wish we could do more to convert these to CNG.

You can convert diesels to run on Ammonia. You would need a bigger fuel tank as Ammonia has half the calorific value of diesel but its doable.

Was lpg fuelled cars inc in 2040 ban ? 

I agree the big scandal is why lpg  & then lpg / ev hybrids were not powering taxis / buses & a high % of cars like in other countries,

I spoke to an lpg converter & they said it was becasue oil co's could make more ££ out of diesel 

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Saving For a Space Ship

[Peter Hun]

Oil companies are switching from oil to lpg. Usage in vehicles will decline because once electric powertrains replace ICE the economics will mean nobody will make vehicles that can be converted to LPG. That will happen by 2025 not 2040.

LPG will be in demand for a long time for fertilisers and heating, maybe long haul flying.

 

 

[Kurt Barlow]

2 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

Oil companies are switching from oil to lpg. Usage in vehicles will decline because once electric powertrains replace ICE the economics will mean nobody will make vehicles that can be converted to LPG. That will happen by 2025 not 2040.

LPG will be in demand for a long time for fertilisers and heating, maybe long haul flying.

 

 

do you mean Natural Gas / Compressed Natural Gas?

LPG is primarily the froth off the top of the oil refining process

[cashinmattress]

2 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

Oil companies are switching from oil to lpg. Usage in vehicles will decline because once electric powertrains replace ICE the economics will mean nobody will make vehicles that can be converted to LPG. That will happen by 2025 not 2040.

LPG will be in demand for a long time for fertilisers and heating, maybe long haul flying.

 

 

Oil companies will switch to whatever industry needs. An electric car boom goes hand in hand with a petrochemical boom. So many of the petro fuels and chemicals used today were once byproducts and spoils of the refining processes of days gone by.

And the ammonia argument is silly. IIRC it was used to power vehicles in WW2 by many cut off from supply lines. It's bloody dangerous...and still a byproduct of big oil. Moot point.

Edited July 28, 2017 by cashinmattress

[TrevorJL]

16 hours ago, kzb said:

I don't have a drive or garage, in common with millions of others.  My car is parked on the street, and I don't have a guaranteed spot outside my home, again like millions of others. 

Exactly how am I going to charge my car overnight?

You have various options:

1) Councils are getting funded to install on-street charging where they get requested

2) Get a long range electric car like the ZOE and charge it up only when you need to (for some people once a week is enough)

3) Buy a PHEV

 

Disclosure: I left the oil and gas industry to form an electric car startup. I'm very happy to answer any questions on electric cars and PHEVs. I have no interest in arguments about how electric cars are the end of world, batteries are mined by poor children in China, that EVs produce more pollution than a Hummer, or the national grid will melt down when we all go electric.

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, TrevorJL said:

Disclosure: I left the oil and gas industry to form an electric car startup. I'm very happy to answer any questions on electric cars and PHEVs. I have no interest in arguments about how electric cars are the end of world, batteries are mined by poor children in China, that EVs produce more pollution than a Hummer, or the national grid will melt down when we all go electric.

No interest in answering awkward questions eh? And if they're not awkward they should be easy to answer so no need to avoid them.

[Errol]

1 hour ago, TrevorJL said:

 I have no interest in arguments about how batteries are mined by poor children in China

So, you admit it! 

[Confusion of VIs]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 2:44 PM, Errol said:

It makes the nation ludicrously vulnerable to EMP attack as well.

That must be a mighty fine TFH you are wearing.

Won't even bother going into all the reasons that comment is complete B**locks.  

[Errol]

13 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

That must be a mighty fine TFH you are wearing.

Won't even bother going into all the reasons that comment is complete B**locks.  

So much B**locks that both the Pentagon and Russia have produced reports on the impact of EMP attack? 

[Confusion of VIs]

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 10:14 AM, kzb said:

No rechargeable battery is going to get close to  hydrocarbon fuels in volumetric or weight energy density.  Where it gains is, its energy is used about three times more efficiently than a diesel engine.

A fuel cell could be competitive, if the oxygen came from the air.   Liquid hydrogen is fantastic in weight energy density but not so good in volumetric energy density, plus it has other issues.  I think the world is still waiting for a fuel cell that runs off safe, energy-dense fuel and atmospheric oxygen.  That would be the ideal, because it is still about 3X the efficiency of internal combustion.

We seem to be headed very much down the rechargeable Li-ion battery route,  it seems to have reached a basic level of feasibility and should reduce in cost as the industry matures. 

It was on TV last night we'll need seven more Hinkley Points to run all UK vehicles from low-carbon electricity. 

By my reckoning, that is the equivalent of increasing wind power by a factor of over 4,400 (i.e 440,000%) assuming an average load factor of about one-third.

And it was not clear if this included HGVs. 

Better get building !

Better batteries and Fuel cell technology are both on the way and will be here much more quickly than people expect. Which wins out, not if, is the real question. 

The current debate seems to be all about highlighting problems rather than looking at how they can be avoided or overcome. 

If anyone has never driven an electric car, pop into your local BMW dealer and its pretty easy to get a 24/48hr test drive in an I3 if you look interested but unconvinced. Chances are you will be amazed at just how quick it feels compared to whatever you are driving.    

 

   

[Confusion of VIs]

28 minutes ago, Errol said:

So much B**locks that both the Pentagon and Russia have produced reports on the impact of EMP attack? 

ok just one reason why your comment is B**locks.

What do you think will happen when you try to start your petrol car once all its electronics have been fried.    

[Option5]

1 minute ago, Confusion of VIs said:

ok just one reason why your comment is B**locks.

What do you think will happen when you try to start your petrol car once all its electronics have been fried.    

What electronics? My car pre-dates them (1956 Ford Escort)

[Confusion of VIs]

4 minutes ago, Option5 said:

What electronics? My car pre-dates them (1956 Ford Escort)

You will have a fun time, roads all to yourself until your petrol runs out or your car is requisitioned to lead our fightback

[TrevorJL]

30 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Better batteries and Fuel cell technology are both on the way and will be here much more quickly than people expect. Which wins out, not if, is the real question. 

 

   

I don't see there being any contest between batteries and fuel cells for cars; batteries have already won, and most remaining fuel cell projects for cars are being wound down. For bigger vehicles, though, I can see fuel cells having a place - particularly for heavy haulage where you could have hydrogen at major distribution points. Hydrogen is never going to appear at all the existing petrol stations - they will either go over to charge points or shut down.

[Confusion of VIs]

4 minutes ago, TrevorJL said:

I don't see there being any contest between batteries and fuel cells for cars; batteries have already won, and most remaining fuel cell projects for cars are being wound down. For bigger vehicles, though, I can see fuel cells having a place - particularly for heavy haulage where you could have hydrogen at major distribution points. Hydrogen is never going to appear at all the existing petrol stations - they will either go over to charge points or shut down.

You are probably right, but there are still some big companies investing in Fuel Cell technology and making equally rapid progress to the battery companies.

If Toyota can deliver its promise to have solid state Lithium cells in full scale by production by 2020 (2 to 3 times the range, plus much cheaper, fast charging, almost everlasting and non flammable) I think its game over for the ICE much more quickly than anyone expects. 

[durhamborn]

45 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Better batteries and Fuel cell technology are both on the way and will be here much more quickly than people expect. Which wins out, not if, is the real question. 

The current debate seems to be all about highlighting problems rather than looking at how they can be avoided or overcome. 

If anyone has never driven an electric car, pop into your local BMW dealer and its pretty easy to get a 24/48hr test drive in an I3 if you look interested but unconvinced. Chances are you will be amazed at just how quick it feels compared to whatever you are driving.    

 

   

Thats what im interested in most.If fuel cell tech wins out then platinum will be a fantastic investment.If it doesnt probably a terrible one.Copper the big winner from battery i expect.

I notice they PGM metal miners are funding fuel cell research.They know if they lose out to electric its curtains 20 years out.

[kzb]

7 hours ago, TrevorJL said:

You have various options:

1) Councils are getting funded to install on-street charging where they get requested

2) Get a long range electric car like the ZOE and charge it up only when you need to (for some people once a week is enough)

3) Buy a PHEV

There are four street lamps on my street and it is parked solid in the evenings.   There's an average of about 1.5 cars per house.  There's a lot of antisocial behaviour.  Yes I am just seeing the problems now, but it's going to take a lot of resources to prevent this being a pain.

[Peter Hun]

Quote

YD’s 40-ft buses are equipped with massive 324 kWh battery packs with lithium iron phosphate battery cells, which can be charged in just 4 hour using BYD’s 80 kW charging stations. It enables a range of roughly 160 miles, which generally easily covers most routes.

The bus can accommodate up to 40 passengers and has a top speed of 62 mph.

The energy capacity adds up quickly – with 60 buses, BYD will be deploying close to 20 MWh of batteries though that order alone.

It’s not even BYD’s largest electric bus. The company recently delivered its first 60-ft all-electric bus in the US, which has a 275 miles range on a massive 547 kWh battery pack.

 

 

https://electrek.co/2017/07/27/los-angeles-byd-all-electric-buses/

[kzb]

Quote

It’s not even BYD’s largest electric bus. The company recently delivered its first 60-ft all-electric bus in the US, which has a 275 miles range on a massive 547 kWh battery pack.

The battery pack stores about the same energy as 56 litres (12 UK gallons) of diesel fuel.  On the other hand, the electric motor is 2 or 3 times more efficient than a diesel engine, so I guess you could say its the equivalent of about 37 gallons on that basis.

Anyhow, it's OK for bus companies, they can install the charging facilities in the depot.  I do not have a depot, along with millions of others.

I want to know what resources will be available to councils (or whoever) to install the required number of charging points on residential streets.  About one per household (on average) I would estimate. 

As a partial alternative, what incentives will be available for employers to install the large number of charging points for employees (this has real potential for carbon savings, as electricity could be provided by solar panels in summer) ?

[Habeas Domus]

On 27/07/2017 at 11:55 PM, Saving For a Space Ship said:

London street lamps are being turned into electric car charging points

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/london-street-lamps-electric-car-charging-points-ubitricity-tech-firm-hounslow-council-richmond-a7809126.html

Owners of hybrid and electric cars can order a charging cable with an in-built electricity meter and will be able to charge their vehicles using lampposts in areas of Barnes, Hounslow, Twickenham, Kensington and Westminster.

This kinds seems like an invitation for abuse, how hard could it be to bypass the meter?

Given how completely connected these new electric cars are perhaps a better option would be to have them all automatically dial home with a report of how many miles are being driven, you then get a fuel bill from the car company. You can charge the car for free anywhere in the country and the car companies re-imburse the energy companies.

Alternatively given how everyone like to rent everything these days, you'd pay a fixed monthly fee which will cover driving up to X number of miles, just like a mobile phone contract.

[Riedquat]

On 28/07/2017 at 1:37 PM, Confusion of VIs said:

If anyone has never driven an electric car, pop into your local BMW dealer and its pretty easy to get a 24/48hr test drive in an I3 if you look interested but unconvinced. Chances are you will be amazed at just how quick it feels compared to whatever you are driving.

The chances are that I'd have something that feels a lot quicker if I'd paid that much for an ICE car. The thing about rapid acceleration is that although people like it it's something they're quite happy to do without - it's in the luxury category. The other oft-quoted advantage of electrics, noise, only really applies at very low speeds too, once up to normal running speed it's not much different from any other car, seeing as it's dominated by tyre and aerodynamic noise at that point. Electric cars will take over, I'm fairly sure on that, but it'll be because they end up overall more economical. They offer little in the way of meaningful practical advantage because the ordinary car does everything that's needed on that front anyway.