University Bubble Making Hissing Sounds

[Si1]

5 minutes ago, Up the spout said:

The courses don't (afaik), but the students could still hang around in between trips to Europe?

Why would they hang around inside an academic library hard at work taking up all the desks tho? 

5 minutes ago, Up the spout said:

I'm only guessing, although if it was me and the choice was a sweaty and expensive month back home or stay near Europe.. Also probably these days they can't finish paying rent in June and start again in August because of the shortage, so leaving would be a bit of a waste if they aren't flush. Most won't be the children of millionaires, just parents who've saved up hard.

 

5 minutes ago, Up the spout said:

They might also be taking their pre-degree ('pre-sessional') English courses, or even attending a summer camp that's unrelated to their degree. Summer camp in the UK is an enormous industry and most unis and boarding schools are taken over by companies running them. Possibly Leeds has companies which focus on young Chinese adults? Could be, or not. *shrug*

Possibly

[Up the spout]

2 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Why would they hang around inside an academic library hard at work taking up all the desks tho? 

 

Although it's a bit delicate and un-PC to say, they do prefer to hang around with each other when overseas - not all of them, but it's noticeable. You could say the same for some other nationalities too; you might see a group of Arabs who are from half a dozen countries, but only see one Kuwait flag and assume they're all Kuwaiti. Can you say with conviction none were Japanese, Korean, Hong Kongers, or Chinese-Malaysian? Unless you've got them lined up in an identity parade and instead just skim over a few dozen faces - which you would because we don't stare in the UK - then they could be from several countries. 

Also there's the 'saving face' thing that they do, and wasting your parents' (and aunts' and uncles') money could result in a loss if they found out. Again that's all purely guesswork - you'd assume they would try and have just as much fun as we did at uni. 

[bearishonhouses]

5 hours ago, spyguy said:

Yes.

And at sometime Prez Xi declares Wetern education not in Chinas interst and - poof! 0 75% of overseas students stop coming.

Its coming. And the HE sector need to be preparing.

 

It almost happened in USA after 2016 - because of resentment against statements and actions by Trump administration.  There has been a huge reduction in number of Chinese students in Masters programs at a university with which I am familiar. The university has been trying, with some success, to compensate by recruiting in India.   

[bearishonhouses]

1 hour ago, Up the spout said:

Although it's a bit delicate and un-PC to say, they do prefer to hang around with each other when overseas - not all of them, but it's noticeable. You could say the same for some other nationalities too; you might see a group of Arabs who are from half a dozen countries, but only see one Kuwait flag and assume they're all Kuwaiti. Can you say with conviction none were Japanese, Korean, Hong Kongers, or Chinese-Malaysian? Unless you've got them lined up in an identity parade and instead just skim over a few dozen faces - which you would because we don't stare in the UK - then they could be from several countries. 

Also there's the 'saving face' thing that they do, and wasting your parents' (and aunts' and uncles') money could result in a loss if they found out. Again that's all purely guesswork - you'd assume they would try and have just as much fun as we did at uni. 

Arabs from half a dozen different countries have a common language. Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, etc do not. People from Hong Kong speak a different language (Cantonese) to those from Beijing (Mandarin) - though it is likely the more educated population can speak both. 

Also, I know from talking to many Koreans and Chinese folks, there is still a lot of resentment against the Japanese because of 1930's to 1945.  

Which is not to say East Asians from different countries would not mix, but it is more likely that a group of anglophones or francophones from different countries would be hanging out together f they found themselves in what was to all of them a foreign  land.

[Up the spout]

Just now, bearishonhouses said:

Arabs from half a dozen different countries have a common language. Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, etc do not. People from Hong Kong speak a different language (Cantonese) to those from Beijing (Mandarin) - though it is likely the more educated population can speak both. 

Also, I know from talking to many Koreans and Chinese folks, there is still a lot of resentment against the Japanese because of 1930's to 1945.  

Which is not to say East Asians from different countries would not mix, but it is more likely that a group of anglophones or francophones from different countries would be hanging out together f they found themselves in what was to all of them a foreign  land.

They're studying in uni in the UK, so they'd all have to pass English tests. 

[bearishonhouses]

1 hour ago, Up the spout said:

Although it's a bit delicate and un-PC to say, they do prefer to hang around with each other when overseas - not all of them, but it's noticeable.

Not un-PC to say this; it is natural. Living in an environment, let alone trying to study, where you are still not fully comfortable with the language is really difficult. I take my hat off to students who ty to do it - be it Chinese in the UK or Brits in France. It is not surprising that students find it more relaxing to be with those speaking the same familiar language. 

However, you raise a good point - a major reasons for Chinese parents wanting to send their kids abroad to study is to learn the language and culture of where they are studying. And I wold argue that there are benefits to home country students to have outsiders be part of the mix. But when there are too many students from one overseas location, this benefit is lost. Students will naturally initially tend to cluster in groups in which they are comfortable;  and they will stay in those small groups if they can. The best way to learn a foreign language is (as my wife did) get sent to a small town where no-one speaks English, so you have to learn to speak the native language. 

 

[Tulip_mania]

6 hours ago, spyguy said:

Yes.

And at sometime Prez Xi declares Wetern education not in Chinas interst and - poof! 0 75% of overseas students stop coming.

Its coming. And the HE sector need to be preparing.

 

There is already a big push to recruit students from other countries, Universities (at least those which can choose students) are diversifying quickly. There are still a lot of Chinese students, but India is already higher and the area of growth at the moment, along with pretty much everywhere that isn't China, Russia or otherwise frowned upon.  

[spyguy]

https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/universities-uk-international/explore-uuki/international-student-recruitment/international-student-recruitment-data#:~:text=120%2C140 of these students were,students in 2020-21).

1. China (151,690) 

2. India (126,535) 

3. Nigeria (44,195)

4. Pakistan (23,075) 

5. United States (22,990) 

6. Hong Kong (17,630) 

7. Bangladesh (12,700) 

8. Malaysia (12,135) 

9. France (11,870) 

10.  Italy (11,320) 

[spyguy]

Of those contries, most of the bolds will be majoring in some BS topic like bizzyness studies with a minor in deliveroo and putting kids n spouse on benefits.

 

[Si1]

7 hours ago, Up the spout said:

Although it's a bit delicate and un-PC to say, they do prefer to hang around with each other when overseas - not all of them, but it's noticeable. You could say the same for some other nationalities too; you might see a group of Arabs who are from half a dozen countries, but only see one Kuwait flag and assume they're all Kuwaiti. Can you say with conviction none were Japanese, Korean, Hong Kongers, or Chinese-Malaysian? Unless you've got them lined up in an identity parade and instead just skim over a few dozen faces - which you would because we don't stare in the UK - then they could be from several countries.

Oh of course. But there were an awful lot of them which fits the view I'd seen of a lot of Chinese doing post-grad. Consistent but not proof of course 

7 hours ago, Up the spout said:

Also there's the 'saving face' thing that they do, and wasting your parents' (and aunts' and uncles') money could result in a loss if they found out. Again that's all purely guesswork - you'd assume they would try and have just as much fun as we did at uni. 

Could be. They were doing a good job of looking busy though.

[Will!]

A surprisingly grounded view of HE from the Beeb.

Cost of living: 'Without a job, I'd have to turn down my uni place

Quote

But not everyone feels like they can justify the cost of higher education. The average cost of university including tuition and accommodation is almost £50,000 in England.

Sir Keir initially pledged to scrap tuition fees when running to be Labour leader, but said in May a "difficult financial situation" meant it would probably have to be dropped.

"Whatever free time I've got, I use that to work," Rizwan Baig from Birmingham tells Newsbeat.

The 21-year-old works two jobs and says he considered going to university like other members of his family.

But when he saw them struggling to find work he decided, for him, it wasn't worth it.

According to the Office for Students, nearly three-in-10 graduates do not progress into highly-skilled jobs or further study 15 months after finishing uni.

"I don't really see the point," Rizwan says, before going on his first shift.

"These days, you can get a degree and then go for a job interview and they ask you for experience.

"If you just start working, you can build up your skills slowly so later you can end up in a better position."

 

[highcontrast]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/30/student-accommodation-university-housing-crisis

 

Because of the pure greed of the BTL parasite scum. Nothing more, nothing less.

[shlomo]

UK universities would be hugely damaged by a sustained diplomatic rift between Britain and China, according to a report that predicts difficulty in replacing the Chinese students who now take up more than one in four international PhD places.

The study, co-authored by the former universities minister Jo Johnson, found that many leading institutions remain highly dependent on Chinese students for tuition fee income as well as to fill postgraduate research courses in subjects such as economics, science and technology.

 

A sudden inflaming of tensions between the UK and China – recently a parliamentary researcher was arrested for allegedly spying for China – could see the pipeline shut off, leaving UK universities with few viable alternatives after the collapse in EU student numbers coming to the UK since Brexit.

Johnson, a visiting professor at King’s College London’s policy institute, said: “The sector continues to follow a ‘cross your fingers’ strategy that decoupling is in the future never necessary for China, in the same ways it was for relations with Russia in February 2022. The China question therefore to a great degree remains unanswered.

“The government must urgently help universities with a framework for how to maximise the benefits from research collaboration and student and academic mobility while managing the downsides, including the risks to national security from bad-faith actors and the dangers of over-reliance on a single country.”

The KCL report says the single most effective way for the government to reduce the reliance on Chinese students would be to raise tuition fees for UK undergraduates in line with inflation for the first time since 2016, when fees were set at £9,250 a year.

“Teaching UK students at this level will be loss-making for many higher education institutions, leaving them with few options other than to recruit international students whose fees are unregulated,” the report concludes.

In 2021-22, more than 3,100 Chinese nationals enrolled in the first year of a doctoral programme at UK universities, far above the 2,000 combined from the three next largest countries – the US, India and Saudi Arabia.

@debtlessmanc

[debtlessmanc]

1 hour ago, shlomo said:

UK universities would be hugely damaged by a sustained diplomatic rift between Britain and China, according to a report that predicts difficulty in replacing the Chinese students who now take up more than one in four international PhD places.

The study, co-authored by the former universities minister Jo Johnson, found that many leading institutions remain highly dependent on Chinese students for tuition fee income as well as to fill postgraduate research courses in subjects such as economics, science and technology.

 

A sudden inflaming of tensions between the UK and China – recently a parliamentary researcher was arrested for allegedly spying for China – could see the pipeline shut off, leaving UK universities with few viable alternatives after the collapse in EU student numbers coming to the UK since Brexit.

Johnson, a visiting professor at King’s College London’s policy institute, said: “The sector continues to follow a ‘cross your fingers’ strategy that decoupling is in the future never necessary for China, in the same ways it was for relations with Russia in February 2022. The China question therefore to a great degree remains unanswered.

“The government must urgently help universities with a framework for how to maximise the benefits from research collaboration and student and academic mobility while managing the downsides, including the risks to national security from bad-faith actors and the dangers of over-reliance on a single country.”

The KCL report says the single most effective way for the government to reduce the reliance on Chinese students would be to raise tuition fees for UK undergraduates in line with inflation for the first time since 2016, when fees were set at £9,250 a year.

“Teaching UK students at this level will be loss-making for many higher education institutions, leaving them with few options other than to recruit international students whose fees are unregulated,” the report concludes.

In 2021-22, more than 3,100 Chinese nationals enrolled in the first year of a doctoral programme at UK universities, far above the 2,000 combined from the three next largest countries – the US, India and Saudi Arabia.

@debtlessmanc

Yes it would be a disaster for the admin staff. It would be interesting to see what happened if China pulled the plug. The system would survive but be traumatised I think.

[spyguy]

At some point, not far in the future, CHina will pull the plug.

 

 

[shlomo]

18 minutes ago, spyguy said:

At some point, not far in the future, CHina will pull the plug.

I think the UK government will be forced to make this decision by the Atlantic alliance 

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/efforts-reduce-uk-sector-over-reliance-china-stalling

[zugzwang]

17 minutes ago, shlomo said:

I think the UK government will be forced to make this decision by the Atlantic alliance 

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/efforts-reduce-uk-sector-over-reliance-china-stalling

What Atlantic alliance? NATO?

[Locke]

Abolish all government support for student loans.

[shlomo]

Britain’s research-intensive universities remain heavily dependent on Chinese students despite warnings that many institutions are over-reliant on this single source of income, says a report led by former universities minister Lord Johnson of Marylebone.

Nine Russell Group universities had more than 5,000 students from China, and one institution – UCL – had more than 10,000 Chinese students, roughly a quarter of its 44,000-strong student body, explains the 

report published by the

report published by the Policy Institute at King’s College London on 13 September.

Overall, UK universities taught 55,195 undergraduates and 78,265 taught postgraduates from China in 2021-22, with four-fifths of them concentrated in one-fifth of universities – the Russell Group institutions plus six others, it adds.

Of the 18 universities with the highest Chinese enrolments, 17 were Russell Group universities, alongside the University of Arts London (ranked seventh), which had 5,540 Chinese among its total of 12,060 non-UK students.

While India has recently overtaken China as the largest sending nation for master’s-level students, 99,720 in 2021-22, “students from India and Nigeria overwhelmingly gravitate towards post-92 institutions, while Chinese students headed to research-intensives”, says the report, The China Question Revisited: “Derisking” higher education and research.

With student numbers from the European Union falling post-Brexit and domestic annual tuition fees of £9,250 set this month to be “worth materially less than £6,000” in 2012 prices, universities have “few options other than to recruit international students” to cover “loss-making” courses at undergraduate level, it says.

At doctoral level, the reliance on Chinese students is even greater, says the study, which found that 35 per cent of materials science PhDs and 31 per cent of computer science PhDs are from China. About 10 per cent of all academic staff in chemical engineering and electrical or computer engineering are also from China, it adds.

The latest statistics follow concerns that many British universities are too reliant on Chinese students, which prompted the Office for Students (OfS) to write to 23 institutions in February asking to see their contingency planning in case of a sudden interruption to overseas recruitment.

Commenting on the latest findings, Lord Johnson, a visiting professor at King’s, said the “sector continues to follow a ‘cross your fingers’ strategy that decoupling in the future [would] never [be] necessary for China, in the same ways it was for relations with Russia in February 2022”.

On the “China question”, he added that the “government must urgently help universities with a framework for how to maximise the benefits from research collaboration and student and academic mobility, while managing the downsides, including the risks to national security from bad-faith actors and the dangers of over-reliance on a single country”.

The single most effective way for the government to reduce universities’ dependence on Chinese students would be to allow domestic tuition fees to increase with inflation, a policy to which no political party is yet committed, says the study.

It adds, however, that institutions should be required to publish an annual statement on their international student recruitment plans, which would provide greater visibility of current strategies to diversify the international student population.

The sector should also seek to build political support for having more international students by taking proactive steps to address potential fraud, as well as working to address high dropout rates among some nationalities.

The report also suggests that universities should begin “weeding out poor-quality and fraudulent applications by charging an application fee for international students, requiring tuition fees to be paid up front and maintenance funds to be put in escrow at the start of the year”.

jack.grove@timeshighereducation.com

 

 

[spyguy]

28 minutes ago, shlomo said:

Britain’s research-intensive universities remain heavily dependent on Chinese students despite warnings that many institutions are over-reliant on this single source of income, says a report led by former universities minister Lord Johnson of Marylebone.

Nine Russell Group universities had more than 5,000 students from China, and one institution – UCL – had more than 10,000 Chinese students, roughly a quarter of its 44,000-strong student body, explains the 

report published by the

report published by the Policy Institute at King’s College London on 13 September.

Overall, UK universities taught 55,195 undergraduates and 78,265 taught postgraduates from China in 2021-22, with four-fifths of them concentrated in one-fifth of universities – the Russell Group institutions plus six others, it adds.

Of the 18 universities with the highest Chinese enrolments, 17 were Russell Group universities, alongside the University of Arts London (ranked seventh), which had 5,540 Chinese among its total of 12,060 non-UK students.

While India has recently overtaken China as the largest sending nation for master’s-level students, 99,720 in 2021-22, “students from India and Nigeria overwhelmingly gravitate towards post-92 institutions, while Chinese students headed to research-intensives”, says the report, The China Question Revisited: “Derisking” higher education and research.

With student numbers from the European Union falling post-Brexit and domestic annual tuition fees of £9,250 set this month to be “worth materially less than £6,000” in 2012 prices, universities have “few options other than to recruit international students” to cover “loss-making” courses at undergraduate level, it says.

At doctoral level, the reliance on Chinese students is even greater, says the study, which found that 35 per cent of materials science PhDs and 31 per cent of computer science PhDs are from China. About 10 per cent of all academic staff in chemical engineering and electrical or computer engineering are also from China, it adds.

The latest statistics follow concerns that many British universities are too reliant on Chinese students, which prompted the Office for Students (OfS) to write to 23 institutions in February asking to see their contingency planning in case of a sudden interruption to overseas recruitment.

Commenting on the latest findings, Lord Johnson, a visiting professor at King’s, said the “sector continues to follow a ‘cross your fingers’ strategy that decoupling in the future [would] never [be] necessary for China, in the same ways it was for relations with Russia in February 2022”.

On the “China question”, he added that the “government must urgently help universities with a framework for how to maximise the benefits from research collaboration and student and academic mobility, while managing the downsides, including the risks to national security from bad-faith actors and the dangers of over-reliance on a single country”.

The single most effective way for the government to reduce universities’ dependence on Chinese students would be to allow domestic tuition fees to increase with inflation, a policy to which no political party is yet committed, says the study.

It adds, however, that institutions should be required to publish an annual statement on their international student recruitment plans, which would provide greater visibility of current strategies to diversify the international student population.

The sector should also seek to build political support for having more international students by taking proactive steps to address potential fraud, as well as working to address high dropout rates among some nationalities.

The report also suggests that universities should begin “weeding out poor-quality and fraudulent applications by charging an application fee for international students, requiring tuition fees to be paid up front and maintenance funds to be put in escrow at the start of the year”.

jack.grove@timeshighereducation.com

 

 

The easiest way to fund the top 50% Univeriosities would be to close the bottom 50%

[spyguy]

While India has recently overtaken China as the largest sending nation for master’s-level students, 99,720 in 2021-22, “students from India and Nigeria overwhelmingly gravitate towards post-92 institutions, 

 

I read that as Indian n Nigerains are taking the p1ss.

Simple they need to charge for non working spouse and pay all public services they use i..e school n NHS (maternity)

 

[spyguy]

We are ~25y down the road from education education education.

Where the ******

I thought of this when I heard this story - 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-66807305

The Polys n UNi throw 100s of nurses. Loads are single parents who go the education route so they dont need to work.

Literally pick a random woman on FB and ithe status is -  trajning to be a nurse.

This a  supposed high unemployment place - it is, no fker appears to work.

Nurse pay ,depsite the BS, is good esp in the NE.

Yet they qualify then go back on bennies/have natnoher kid

Its a huge fking expensive waste of time - bennies n HE.

 

 

[Will!]

ITV News: 'I want a refund': Students are suing their universities over disruption

A story about a someone studying criminology in Liverpool.

<insert punchline here>

[Si1]

4 minutes ago, Will! said:

ITV News: 'I want a refund': Students are suing their universities over disruption

A story about a someone studying criminology in Liverpool.

<insert punchline here>

What do you call a Scouser wearing a suit...

[shlomo]

4 minutes ago, Si1 said:

What do you call a Scouser wearing a suit...

Guilty