dances with sheeple Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 24 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: We've never been immune to war and conflict and have more recent experience of it than many of our neighbours. Fundamentally the reason Brexit is difficult is that too many people don't want to leave. The Brexiteers haven't done enough to convince people that it's a good idea. They have three choices - Stay and accept the outcome (most will probably do this) Move to an EU country Or somehow over-throw democracy (as many have been trying for three years) In reality one and two are the only options that are realistic at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 26 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: We've never been immune to war and conflict and have more recent experience of it than many of our neighbours. Fundamentally the reason Brexit is difficult is that too many people don't want to leave. The Brexiteers haven't done enough to convince people that it's a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: I'm not sure the US would want to share power, but supposing we did have some combined EU-US entity, it would really be just more Western integration, not global integration. Perhaps with the rise of China, something like that will become necessary just to hold our own. Except external borders to the west have been coming down everywhere too. Give it a few decades and the next continent would have been sucked in via 'trade agreements' too. And these trade agreements all have legal elements but no democratic elements. Very suspicious imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Just now, dances with sheeple said: They have three choices - Stay and accept the outcome (most will probably do this) Move to an EU country Or somehow over-throw democracy (as many have been trying for three years) In reality one and two are the only options that are realistic at the moment. Or convince a majority of people that they are right. That is democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Just now, allfiredup said: Except external borders to the west have been coming down everywhere too. Give it a few decades and the next continent would have been sucked in via 'trade agreements' too. And these trade agreements all have legal elements but no democratic elements. Very suspicious imo That's why the EU is so important: it does have the democratic elements. You can argue they're not perfect, but we elect MEPs. The Commission President is chosen by a relatively transparent process by elected leaders and MEPs, etc. If you destroy the EU, you're destroying the best chance for cooperation between nations to be done in a way that takes account of democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: I'm not sure the US would want to share power, but supposing we did have some combined EU-US entity, it would really be just more Western integration, not global integration. Perhaps with the rise of China, something like that will become necessary just to hold our own. A necessity perhaps but not a desirable one. Sounds all a bit arms race-ish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 1 hour ago, jonb2 said: Air travel more accessible too. A greater curiosity about learning about others. There is a cancer that needs curing - Social Media. Until something is done about it, humanity is going to get more smashed up. But the working class won't be allowed to fly. Flying will be reserved for the elites and their showbiz hangers on. Think carbon emissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 2 hours ago, allfiredup said: Not really. Existing nation states have built up over a couple of thousand years after lots of awful wars to the fairly stable state they are in. The EU is trying change that into an empire of old. That's not true. The EU is a group of states who decided to collaborate, pool resources and formed some bodies to enact this. It resembles nothing like the empires of old. It is far, far more consistent with a group of territories agreeing to work together, similar to how nation states formed. You may not like this but you should still stick to reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, dugsbody said: That's not true. The EU is a group of states who decided to collaborate, pool resources and formed some bodies to enact this. It resembles nothing like the empires of old. It is far, far more consistent with a group of territories agreeing to work together, similar to how nation states formed. You may not like this but you should still stick to reality. Plus the territorial integrity of our own state - the UK - was only finally stabilised thanks to being in the EU, which eventually allowed us to make a contested border less significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 17 minutes ago, kzb said: But the working class won't be allowed to fly. Flying will be reserved for the elites and their showbiz hangers on. Think carbon emissions. Doubt it....we rely on tourism as much as the next country does.....nobody will survive without the outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Plus the territorial integrity of our own state - the UK - was only finally stabilised thanks to being in the EU, which eventually allowed us to make a contested border less significant. EU-related stuff barely gets a mention in the GFA. At no point does it say the agreement is contingent on continued EU membership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Just now, kzb said: EU-related stuff barely gets a mention in the GFA. At no point does it say the agreement is contingent on continued EU membership. The single market and customs union are what allows the practical impact of a political border to melt away. Without it, that political division suddenly matters much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 1 minute ago, winkie said: Doubt it....we rely on tourism as much as the next country does.....nobody will survive without the outside. It's not me saying this, it is Carolyn Lucas. Ordinary people will have to go on holiday by train. She said this on the radio the other week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moneyfornothing Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 31 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Or convince a majority of people that they are right. That is democracy. And if they are not convinced, keep giving them another vote till they are .. at which point they should not have another choice for the next 40 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 47 minutes ago, zugzwang said: Even worse, making the UK into a beacon of science, engineering and research is no guarantee that it won't go bankrupt! The former Soviet Union was home to some of the twentieth century's greatest scientists, mathematicians and engineers. Kolmogorov, Sakharov, Korolev etc. I was being sarcastic Zugz. There is as much chance of compensatory support for science happening after Brexit as there is discovering Elvis is still alive in his moon-base. Feck business remember? Let's have a look at what no-deal will do for another sector - IT, software and digital. Some serious operations questions. Nobody has even mentioned this. https://www.information-age.com/what-would-a-no-deal-brexit-mean-for-techs-123474402/ https://www.itpro.co.uk/policy-legislation/32576/no-deal-brexit-will-block-critical-data-transfers-from-eu-warns-ico https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/05/brexit_no_deal/ Fecking Global Britain indeed. It's all such a pack of cards based on lies. Plus why would anybody want to do business with such a flaky entity as the UK after all this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 1 minute ago, kzb said: It's not me saying this, it is Carolyn Lucas. Ordinary people will have to go on holiday by train. She said this on the radio the other week. Who can afford to travel by train?.....you tried catching a train to Edinburgh, cost a fortune takes ages none of the connections talk to each other.....a plane is the only practical, timely, safe and affordable way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 29 minutes ago, kzb said: But the working class won't be allowed to fly. Flying will be reserved for the elites and their showbiz hangers on. Think carbon emissions. RQ will be pleased - a return to the great Victorian age when everybody new their place and couldn't get out of it. A time when the elite's have first call on the lifeboats - like the Titanic. Oh God, I'm getting all misty eyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 28 minutes ago, dugsbody said: That's not true. The EU is a group of states who decided to collaborate, pool resources and formed some bodies to enact this. It resembles nothing like the empires of old. It is far, far more consistent with a group of territories agreeing to work together, similar to how nation states formed. You may not like this but you should still stick to reality. Its a modern style of empire that started with a trade agreement and has deceptively morphed into something much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, winkie said: Who can afford to travel by train?.....you tried catching a train to Edinburgh, cost a fortune takes ages none of the connections talk to each other.....a plane is the only practical, timely, safe and affordable way. What's wrong with walking everywhere? We used to do it in the past and if it was good enough for the iron age people ... and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, jonb2 said: RQ will be pleased - a return to the great Victorian age when everybody new their place and couldn't get out of it. A time when the elite's have first call on the lifeboats - like the Titanic. Oh God, I'm getting all misty eyed. Not likely, someone would complain on twitter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, jonb2 said: What's wrong with walking everywhere? We used to do it in the past and if it was good enough for the iron age people ... and so on. ...walking only within their boundary line....barbed wire fences, protected from the outside.....only problem is, like it or not they need the outside.....we all need each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 15 minutes ago, winkie said: Who can afford to travel by train?.....you tried catching a train to Edinburgh, cost a fortune takes ages none of the connections talk to each other.....a plane is the only practical, timely, safe and affordable way. Complain to the Green Party and Extinction Rebellion. Wait...what am I talking about...this is official policy of ALL mainstream parties ! Cutting carbon emissions to net zero is far more important than your preference for flying. Suck it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Flying is ok if you can afford to off-set the carbon. Electric planes are coming soon anyway which is going to hit the carbon tax collectors where it hurts as well as putting a lot of climate change employees out of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 17 minutes ago, allfiredup said: Its a modern style of empire that started with a trade agreement and has deceptively morphed into something much more. There was no deception. Go back and read the debates about the Coal and Steel Community and it was all about pooling sovereignty and political integration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, allfiredup said: Flying is ok if you can afford to off-set the carbon. Electric planes are coming soon anyway which is going to hit the carbon tax collectors where it hurts as well as putting a lot of climate change employees out of work. Not so fast https://redd-monitor.org/2016/10/19/five-responses-to-the-aviation-industrys-carbon-offsetting-scam/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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