Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Confusion of VIs]

20 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Keep all the club house bingo and car key swapping to members, and let associates simply pay per play?

Bb that excludes giving a lift to the groundkeepers wife to and from the course, and still allows us to play on other courses when and how we damn well like.

 

That's a possible maybe the probable outcome but we aren't going to like the bill.

A lot more than we pay now but still much cheaper than a hard Brexit.   

[Confusion of VIs]

15 minutes ago, TwoTearsInABucket said:

She is stuck in much the same bind (with the addition of no majority) that any UK leader would be in. Given a shitty stick and told to make magic.

[Riedquat]

Just now, Confusion of VIs said:

That's a possible maybe the probable outcome but we aren't going to like the bill.

A lot more than we pay now but still much cheaper than a hard Brexit.   

A "devil's in the detail" result possibly. Get a reasonable trade deal on the table and I doubt there'll be too much grumbling about paying for access to other things, and if there is any reasonableness involved it would be a way for all to save face.

[GrizzlyDave]

1 minute ago, Riedquat said:

A "devil's in the detail" result possibly. Get a reasonable trade deal on the table and I doubt there'll be too much grumbling about paying for access to other things, and if there is any reasonableness involved it would be a way for all to save face.

Norway+

[sPinwheel]

14 minutes ago, TwoTearsInABucket said:

How dare you! It is all in the good book which should be taken literally.

Yes but it's a big book. With lots of contradictions. So they have to check and cross-check and then determine ultimately, what would Jesus do.

 

Jesus would have voted for Brexit....no doubt....

[Confusion of VIs]

2 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

A "devil's in the detail" result possibly. Get a reasonable trade deal on the table and I doubt there'll be too much grumbling about paying for access to other things, and if there is any reasonableness involved it would be a way for all to save face.

The EU cannot legally give us a trade deal that is any more favourable than the existing deals with third countries (as the existing treaties forbid this). The only way we can do better, without fully accepting ongoing FoM is by re-joining the EEA. 

[Confusion of VIs]

4 minutes ago, sPinwheel said:

Yes but it's a big book. With lots of contradictions. So they have to check and cross-check and then determine ultimately, what would Jesus do.

 

Jesus would have voted for Brexit....no doubt....

Really, I thought he would be a bit too soft on immigration and border control for that.

[pig]

7 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

If there was any sense in that post it's beyond my ability to find it. All I am seeing from you lot is "democracy means keep voting until we get the result that I want."

Actually in your case I don’t think it is beyond you, which is interesting in itself.

Yes of course you’re meant to keep voting in a democracy - duh ?

On this special case of the referendum what it is meant to mean (notoriously) wasn’t voted on, and is basically being made up post vote, as is your spurious ‘well whatever is made up needs to be fixed for a generation’.

Combined that’s a bizarrely  undemocratic situation - more like democracy taken hostage. Ah well that’s OK it was always meant to be a blank cheque ?

Its not just about £350m on the side of s bus is it ? Henry 8th powers - excuse me ? Leaving the customs union - what ? What’s wrong with eating sh1t food - you having a laugh ? Go whistle cake and eat it blah blah- yes please ! Er ..

You put that and all the rest down and vote on it - that’s democracy. Simples.  But then you know that don’t you ? 

[Riedquat]

4 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

The EU cannot legally give us a trade deal that is any more favourable than the existing deals with third countries (as the existing treaties forbid this). The only way we can do better, without fully accepting ongoing FoM is by re-joining the EEA. 

Well "better" is somewhat subjective - if you take FoM as part of a trade deal (and it's a bit of an odd things to be included) then it's very much down to individual countries' circumstances whether it's a benefit or a cost.

[Riedquat]

1 minute ago, pig said:

Actually in your case I don’t think it is beyond you, which is interesting in itself.

Yes of course you’re meant to keep voting in a democracy - duh ?

On this special case of the referendum what it is meant to mean (notoriously) wasn’t voted on, and is basically being made up post vote, as is your spurious ‘well whatever is made up needs to be fixed for a generation’.

Combined that’s a bizarrely  undemocratic situation - more like democracy taken hostage. Ah well that’s OK it was always meant to be a blank cheque ?

Its not just about £350m on the side of s bus is it ? Henry 8th powers - excuse me ? Leaving the customs union - what ? What’s wrong with eating sh1t food - you having a laugh ? Go whistle cake and eat it blah blah- yes please ! Er ..

You put that and all the rest down and vote on it - that’s democracy. Simples.  But then you know that don’t you ? 

"Fixed for a generation" isn't spurious. How often should we have another referednum on joining / leaving / staying in the EU? It's impractical to do it every five minutes, and wrong to say it's fixed in stone for eternity (remember there's a very large proportion of voters who weren't even born when the original decision to join was made).

There's a bit of a line between people arguing for re-running the referendum and those for a vote on the final deal - I took you as meaning the former, if it's the latter that's slightly different although there's still rather a grey area. Again (perhaps from a practical point of view) the point of any election is to vote on a broad sweep for government and Parliament to get on with working out the details.

[HairyOb1]

Oh excellent, thats really funny.  May essentially signs her own resignation letter:

She can't not agree to the deal, as the talks will finish, aswill she. No deal isn't on the table given what we've seen in them giving into every EU demand.

If she agrees to the deal, DUP will withdraw supply and confidence deal and she's finished, as they do not want any part of the UK to be treated differently in brexit.  It also, effectively, unifies Ireland.  It also opens up full independence for Scotland, possibly London too from what I'm reading.

If she agrees for the whole of the UK to be in customs union, etc, the brexiteers in the cabinet will oust her

Today is a good day, as it's effectively kicked brexit into the long grass.

 

[HairyOb1]

21 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

The EU cannot legally give us a trade deal that is any more favourable than the existing deals with third countries (as the existing treaties forbid this). The only way we can do better, without fully accepting ongoing FoM is by re-joining the EEA. 

That this is still being debated by any brexiteer is very odd, as its been apparent from the get go that this was always going to be the case.

I may even pop open a beer tonight, on a school night too.

[Confusion of VIs]

2 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Oh excellent, thats really funny.  May essentially signs her own resignation letter:

She can't not agree to the deal, as the talks will finish, aswill she. No deal isn't on the table given what we've seen in them giving into every EU demand.

If she agrees to the deal, DUP will withdraw supply and confidence deal and she's finished, as they do not want any part of the UK to be treated differently in brexit.  It also, effectively, unifies Ireland.  It also opens up full independence for Scotland, possibly London too from what I'm reading.

If she agrees for the whole of the UK to be in customs union, etc, the brexiteers in the cabinet will oust her

Today is a good day, as it's effectively kicked brexit into the long grass.

I expect the DUP will cave, they can work out the above themselves and they really don't want a Corbyn government.

[HairyOb1]

1 minute ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I expect the DUP will cave, they can work out the above themselves and they really don't want a Corbyn government.

I just can't, as if there are red lines here, it is that this would be considered the unification of Ireland, by stealth.  I simply cannot see them agreeing to it.  Think of all of their voters knowing they've sold out for the one thing they said they wouldn't.  Sinn Fein will be rubbing their hands together at this news.  

I finding it wonderfully ironic that years and years of disagreement over Ireland are going to be, pretty much, settled by the back door.

[HairyOb1]

Funny enough, this just came up on twitter!

 

[HairyOb1]

Quote

The UK and EU have failed to reach an agreement to move to the next stage of Brexit talks, Theresa May has said.

The prime minister said differences remain on a "couple of issues".

She said talks would reconvene "before the end of the week" and she was "confident we will conclude this positively".

The BBC's Laura Kuenssberg said the deal had been "sunk" by the DUP, which reacted angrily to reports of concessions on the Irish border issue.

Getting tasty.

[GrizzlyDave]

34 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Funny enough, this just came up on twitter!

 

So the DUP want soft brexit for NI and the rest of the UK?

[ZeroSumGame]

29 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Getting tasty.

I'm assuming here that Theresa May has stage managed this, and it's her own way of her stepping down. Can't see the DUP backing off and they may enjoy a little Pyrrhic victory.

Pravda Komrade Korbyn - your time has come!  .

[sPinwheel]

52 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Really, I thought he would be a bit too soft on immigration and border control for that.

Not according to the Bible. For humankind, God “allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live." 

 

[pig]

1 hour ago, Riedquat said:

"Fixed for a generation" isn't spurious. How often should we have another referednum on joining / leaving / staying in the EU? It's impractical to do it every five minutes, and wrong to say it's fixed in stone for eternity (remember there's a very large proportion of voters who weren't even born when the original decision to join was made).

There's a bit of a line between people arguing for re-running the referendum and those for a vote on the final deal - I took you as meaning the former, if it's the latter that's slightly different although there's still rather a grey area. Again (perhaps from a practical point of view) the point of any election is to vote on a broad sweep for government and Parliament to get on with working out the details.

Even if you ran  ‘exactly’ the same referendum it couldn’t be the ‘same’ - too much has surfaced along the way, the world has moved on.

Wherever you are on the xenophobia scale immigration was a major issue, if not ‘the’ issue, can’t see anybody disagreeing on that. 

Secondly the problem is the vote is seen as a mandate for ANY old Brexit, and that is patently not true - wherever you lie on the he lied / she lied scale.

Any second referendum would have to be spelled out and between staying in the EU with the full immigration control available to us implemented or  the best ACTUAL deal the Brexiters can come up with outside of the EU.

Now that would sharply focus minds on delivering what people actually want AT RISK of not being voted for, not what an orgy of  batsh*t politician VI’s and supporting fanatics concoct - and I really am pointing the finger at both sides with that one.

Will of the people is the will of the people innit - or doesn’t it matter any more ?

[Silverfinger]

I hope May did not have to walk out because Junker touched her again. This guy is way too hands on...

[sPinwheel]

12 minutes ago, Silverfinger said:

I hope May did not have to walk out because Junker touched her again. This guy is way too hands on...

She's been desensitized by a pussy grabber.

[jonb2]

3 hours ago, Riedquat said:

"Keep having votes until you get the result you want" isn't democracy, and I wonder how anyone can claim it is with a straight face. It's only democracy if there's another vote again after that one, and we keep having them forever. That is, of course, completely impractical. On an issue like the EU about once per generation is probably about right for balancing democracy against practicality.

The problem is RQ - democracy is only true when everybody is in command of the full facts and consequences. You can hardly call the 2016 vote a fact full event can you?

Some quotes about democracy - it's not set in stone and still an experiment. IOW, surely there is nothing wrong with a second referendum now that we know that Turkey is not joining - the NHS is still fecked, immigration will come from another direction and it's going to get very ugly.

 

“Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.”
― Noam Chomsky, Media Control: The Spectacular Achievements of Propaganda

“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.”
― H.L. Mencken, A Little Book in C Major

“Does history record any case in which the majority was right?”
― Robert A. Heinlein

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
― Isaac Asimov

“You have to remember one thing about the will of the people: it wasn't that long ago that we were swept away by the Macarena.”
― Jon Stewart

“Protest beyond the law is not a departure from democracy; it is absolutely essential to it.”
― Howard Zin

And this - written well before Trump

“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”
― H.L. Mencken, On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe

 

In the end, it's about making the best choice when you have as many facts you can have. You now know for certain that we have the worst politcos in charge who want to fill their pockets and will lie to you brazenly in order to do it. A second referendum would thus be more democratic.

 

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

2 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

Oh excellent, thats really funny.  May essentially signs her own resignation letter:

She can't not agree to the deal, as the talks will finish, aswill she. No deal isn't on the table given what we've seen in them giving into every EU demand.

If she agrees to the deal, DUP will withdraw supply and confidence deal and she's finished, as they do not want any part of the UK to be treated differently in brexit.  It also, effectively, unifies Ireland.  It also opens up full independence for Scotland, possibly London too from what I'm reading.

If she agrees for the whole of the UK to be in customs union, etc, the brexiteers in the cabinet will oust her

Today is a good day, as it's effectively kicked brexit into the long grass.

Yes, and i’ve made this point a few times on Daily Mail comments, but they refuse to print it.

Though I may have used words like “Theresa May effectively doing Sinn Fein’s Work.” Presumably the DUP will have a problem with this?

[rollover]

Credit where credit's due. The PM resisted pressure that was on her recently and saved UK from disastrous hard Brexit.