Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[jonb2]

16 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Instead of agreeing - that this desecration of  Churchill’s  statue is wrong. You choose to turn your attention at those who have criticised the vandalism.

Speaks volumes about you.

If you are so worried about crimes against the nation - sure you would admit the deliberate policy of filling our care homes full of Covid patients from hospitals is a far more heinous one?

[slawek]

3 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

If you are so worried about crimes against the nation - sure you would admit the deliberate policy of filling our care homes full of Covid patients from hospitals is a far more heinous one?

There was a deliberate policy not to provide hospital care for Covid-19 patients over some age threshold in order to lower pressure on NHS. As a result those people were sent back to care homes or refused a hospital admission. 

[debtlessmanc]

8 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Can I remind you who is 'running' the country.

Any grandiose visions of progress and/or social improvement are for the fairies. Forget it. Not going to happen, never was.

It's business as usual, but worse.

indeed neither parties would do this in the UK, Corbyn would have stolen the money from the usual targets to spend on his cronies. No one in politics is really interested in science and progress in this country,  just settling scores.

[thecrashingisles]

3 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

indeed neither parties would do this in the UK, Corbyn would have stolen the money from the usual targets to spend on his cronies. No one in politics is really interested in science and progress in this country,  just settling scores.

When the government is operating under the constraint that it needs to implement a negative-sum project because it's the will of the people, what do you expect?

[slawek]

What is meaning of life? Still 52/48

 

 

[GrizzlyDave]

46 minutes ago, slawek said:

What is meaning of life? Still 52/48

 

 

[slawek]

17 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

What if they leave the UK and join the EU?

[zugzwang]

1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

indeed neither parties would do this in the UK, Corbyn would have stolen the money from the usual targets to spend on his cronies. No one in politics is really interested in science and progress in this country,  just settling scores.

Not at all. The Labour manifesto was a fully-costed blueprint to repair and refit the UK for the 21st Century centred around a national program of general needs social housing to relieve the acute demand pressure in the private sector, an essential step in reorienting the UK away from its current debt trajectory and back towards a sustainable one.

[zugzwang]

3 minutes ago, slawek said:

What if they leave the UK and join the EU?

When they leave.

[debtlessmanc]

The hard left (like my ex-wife and her family, momentum members) are only really interested in settling scores, helping the average person takes second place.

[slawek]

5 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

When they leave.

I don't know. Support for Scottish Independence grows. It is likely to increase further after Brexit costs become reality. Handling of Covid-19 can help too. Even if there is a clear majority getting another ref could be difficult as the current government is not known to play by democratic rules.    

[dryrot]

28 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

Not at all. The Labour manifesto was a fully-costed blueprint to repair and refit the UK for the 21st Century centred around a national program of general needs social housing to relieve the acute demand pressure in the private sector, an essential step in reorienting the UK away from its current debt trajectory and back towards a sustainable one.

For those interested, the 2019 ,manifesto is up at https://labour.org.uk/manifesto-2019/

For a laugh, check out the Brexit portion https://labour.org.uk/manifesto-2019/the-final-say-on-brexit/

"Labour will give the people the final say on Brexit. Within three months of coming to power, a Labour government will secure a sensible deal. And within six months, we will put that deal to a public vote alongside the option to remain. A Labour government will implement whatever the people decide. Only a Labour government will put this decision in the hands of the people to give you the final say. This will be a legally binding referendum and we will implement the people’s decision immediately."

Can' imagine why Labour lost...

[dryrot]

18 minutes ago, slawek said:

I don't know. Support for Scottish Independence grows. It is likely to increase further after Brexit costs become reality. Handling of Covid-19 can help too. Even if there is a clear majority getting another ref could be difficult as the current government is not known to play by democratic rules.    

Perhaps England should be included? - "Do you want Scotland to be part of the UK?" I imagine many south of the border might be tired of funding the Barnett formula.

[Bob8]

31 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

The hard left (like my ex-wife and her family, momentum members) are only really interested in settling scores, helping the average person takes second place.

As someone of the left, I think the momentum people are very simplistic. The votes cast reflect the way society as a whole views things. We are still a hierarchical society and many people will seek to blame those around them and below them first. To think that yelling at them will change their views is daft.

[debtlessmanc]

19 minutes ago, slawek said:

I don't know. Support for Scottish Independence grows. It is likely to increase further after Brexit costs become reality. Handling of Covid-19 can help too. Even if there is a clear majority getting another ref could be difficult as the current government is not known to play by democratic rules.    

It will be a decade before another referendum on this, lets be honest. It is not the kind of thing you can keep on asking people in this way (if you ask them anything in this way). Anyway a good analogy is Canada and Quebec, referenda 1980 and 15 years later  in 1995 with almost identical results.

I like the scots, i really do, i had scottish grandparents etc, but i really cannot see cessation working for them, especially now with the oil resource fading. The driving force from the political leadership is a desire to hob nob with Angela and Immanuel at Summits, it is depressing fact how much crap countries get so that their leaders get to meet the us president etc. for example the development of the H-bomb by the uk.

[Bob8]

1 minute ago, debtlessmanc said:

It will be a decade before another referendum on this, lets be honest. It is not the kind of thing you can keep on asking people in this way (if you ask them anything in this way). Anyway a good analogy is Canada and Quebec, referenda 1980 and 15 years later  in 1995 with almost identical results.

I like the scots, i really do, i had scottish grandparents etc, but i really cannot see cessation working for them, especially now with the oil resource fading. The driving force from the political leadership is a desire to hob nob with Angela and Immanuel at Summits, it is depressing fact how much crap countries get so that their leaders get to meet the us president etc. for example the development of the H-bomb by the uk.

Brexit might actually make things harder. Cutting off your neighbouring market, particularly when it is much bigger than you, is daft. But that same logic that makes brexit silly also means that an EU Scotland having a hard border with a post-Brexit England would also be difficult.

[slawek]

6 minutes ago, dryrot said:

Perhaps England should be included? - "Do you want Scotland to be part of the UK?" I imagine many south of the border might be tired of funding the Barnett formula.

I am more in interest "Do you want London to become independent?". We pay for the rest of UK not England.

[slawek]

4 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

It will be a decade before another referendum on this, lets be honest. It is not the kind of thing you can keep on asking people in this way (if you ask them anything in this way). Anyway a good analogy is Canada and Quebec, referenda 1980 and 15 years later  in 1995 with almost identical results.

I like the scots, i really do, i had scottish grandparents etc, but i really cannot see cessation working for them, especially now with the oil resource fading. The driving force from the political leadership is a desire to hob nob with Angela and Immanuel at Summits, it is depressing fact how much crap countries get so that their leaders get to meet the us president etc. for example the development of the H-bomb by the uk.

It is up to them to decide when and what decision they will make.

[debtlessmanc]

2 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

As someone of the left, I think the momentum people are very simplistic. The votes cast reflect the way society as a whole views things. We are still a hierarchical society and many people will seek to blame those around them and below them first. To think that yelling at them will change their views is daft.

I have posted on here before that one member of my ex-wifes family took it to the extreme and had loaded arms under the floorboards (now chucked in the sea by his ex-wife). I am afraid i have been converted by all this from a left wing radical to a sort of libertarian anarchist with a deep cynicism for human politics, anyway the planet is the only thing that really matters.

[debtlessmanc]

2 minutes ago, slawek said:

It is up to them to decide when and what decision they will make.

I think there may be limits on that? afterall they were given a fairer opportunity than eg Catalonia was on the issue.

[IMHAL]

4 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

It will be a decade before another referendum on this, lets be honest. It is not the kind of thing you can keep on asking people in this way (if you ask them anything in this way). Anyway a good analogy is Canada and Quebec, referenda 1980 and 15 years later  in 1995 with almost identical results.

I like the scots, i really do, i had scottish grandparents etc, but i really cannot see cessation working for them, especially now with the oil resource fading. The driving force from the political leadership is a desire to hob nob with Angela and Immanuel at Summits, it is depressing fact how much crap countries get so that their leaders get to meet the us president etc. for example the development of the H-bomb by the uk.

You do realise that you are using the exact opposite logic wrt Scotland to the post you made just today for leaving the EU.

I amused at the contorted and contradictory justifications used to support Brexit. 

[slawek]

Just now, debtlessmanc said:

I think there may be limits on that? afterall they were given a fairer opportunity than eg Catalonia was on the issue.

It is up to Scots to define the limits. Catalonia should make their own choice too. 

[MARTINX9]

1 hour ago, slawek said:

What is meaning of life? Still 52/48

 

 

Well its a poll - just like the final two polls published on 23 June 2016 by you gov and populus which had remain ahead by 4 and 10%. Yes may well be further ahead - the polls were certainly way out in Scotland at the general election - if they had been more accurate the Lib Dem leader might have spent more time in Renfrewshire and not lost her seat.

Being quite blunt there is no incentive and no way this current Tory government is going to offer a referendum on Scottish independence in this parliament. Why - because their voters in Scotland are solidly pro union. There are a lot of votes in being pro independence - but plenty as well for being seen as pro union who won't do deals with the SNP as Labour implied they would. Its pure politics - but its the reality.

The Scots had their chance in 2014 - they chose to stay in the UK by 10%. The interests of the other 60 million odd people in England, Wales and NI also have to be considered - after all who is going to fund the Scottish government's huge budget deficit?.

 

[debtlessmanc]

8 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

You do realise that you are using the exact opposite logic wrt Scotland to the post you made just today for leaving the EU.

I amused at the contorted and contradictory justifications used to support Brexit. 

 apart from anything else, i do not "support" brexit - i voted remain. i just happen to think things will not be as bad as some say. That seems to make me a target on here, says alot about you?

And what i posted is opinion not logic.

Edited June 7, 2020 by debtlessmanc

[debtlessmanc]

9 minutes ago, slawek said:

It is up to Scots to define the limits. Catalonia should make their own choice too. 

How often would you have referenda, one every year?  leave join/remain, Is the first referenda that comes out remain the last one they should be allowed for a million years?