crouch Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 minute ago, jonb2 said: Churchill was independently wealthy. Churchill was on the financial rocks most of his life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 minute ago, jonb2 said: Churchill was independently wealthy. Also, he had fought for his country. Boris needs to whore himself out to the highest bidder https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/channel-four-tories-at-war-crispin-odey-1-6283173 But he did keep some money back for tea, crumpets and tarts https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49794693 So here we are, Leavers voting for even more of the same corruption and greed that pervades British politics. Good work. Oh, and don't forget the destruction of the UK too. I am preparing the ""I told you so" merchandise catalogue. Mugs, T-shirts, full size flags and ringtones to be used as constant reminders for the next few decades. Don't invest your life's wealth in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said: The UK will break up. Job done. If that's what the people want, so be it. That's another quality of the Brits, we listen to the people, something the Europeans are taking a long time to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 minute ago, allfiredup said: If that's what the people want, so be it. That's another quality of the Brits, we listen to the people, something the Europeans are taking a long time to learn. The English have never once been asked if they want the union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, crouch said: Churchill was on the financial rocks most of his life. I think we are both right. He went through a period of heavy debt as a young man - it appears he was a spendthrift. His early years were always indebted - but as things went on he did much better - getting a $5 million bequest from a relative. He certainly didn't die in debt either - he left $7 million. https://www.churchillcentral.com/how-much-is-winston-churchills-net-worth/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, crouch said: I think the die is cast. Even if we stay in the EU due to finagling there's two ways this will play out: we'll leave after another few years and it will be for good or: the EU itself will change so that we are a "fit" with it. The UK has never been a "fit" with the EU as currently constituted; we were lied to on an industrial scale prior to our accession in 1973 and we would never have joined if the truth had come out. Totally agree. I'm all for working together, just not under this structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, allfiredup said: That's another quality of the Brits, we listen to the people, something the Europeans are taking a long time to learn. No wrong. The European countries do listen to their people; it's the EU that doesn't hence the "vote until you get it right" instruction sent out from the Head Office and Cultural Purity Bureau aka the Commission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: The English have never once been asked if they want the union. I'm glad you're not navigating this trip, we would be zig-zagging around in circles all day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 minute ago, crouch said: No wrong. The European countries do listen to their people; it's the EU that doesn't hence the "vote until you get it right" instruction sent out from the Head Office and Cultural Purity Bureau aka the Commission. OK point taken, but did the national governments do enough to support their people? i don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 33 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: It’s true though. It’s not enough just to accept the result; Remainers are excepted to renounce their opinions and stop arguing in favour of what they believe is right for the country. It's sophistry, part of the language some remainers have adopted in their determined struggle to delay and negate the result. I understand why. Many of them feel the unifying ambitions and achievements of the EU are right for the UK and sit at the very core of their sense of self. They will use any means at their disposal - and they are rich and powerful voices - to challenge and resist the result. But I fear the impetus and inexorability of a no-deal Brexit only grows stronger - and potentially more damaging for the UK - the more well-intentioned remainers bend their strength against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Riedquat said: I'd certainly favour a more federal UK, with more self-determination for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Who was going on about the English moving in to Wales and saying that's what resulted in a pro-Leave vote from Wales? Wasn't me who brought that up. Nope. Nobody was 'complaining about the English moving into Wales and influencing things' that's entirely your Freudian slip. The point is simply that from this research it looks like Brexit is mainly an English issue. Its not about 'blaming' the English, but it does beg the question of what is going on with the English (or certain types of). If English Leavers are so keen to play the nationalist game then its of course problematic that all the other UK nations did not vote for Brexit - and that's not 'ironic' that's more like full on hypocrisy. Perhaps that explains the keenness to wrap Brexit in 'northern victimhood' .... Quote Dorling’s research, which was presented at the British Science Association’s annual meeting at Warwick University, also suggested that most of the UK’s leave votes did come not from the north of England but the south, with the highest numbers in areas populated with affluent older people... “The real support for Brexit, in terms of numbers of votes, was in places like Cornwall, which was 57% for leave, Hampshire with 54%, Essex with 62% and Norfolk with 57%. It is those southern English voters that are dragging Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland unwillingly out of Europe. “Everyone blames Wigan and Stoke for Brexit but we should really be blaming Cornwall and Devon.” https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: Not in Scotland or Northern Ireland. Nor Gibraltar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, allfiredup said: OK point taken, but did the national governments do enough to support their people? i don't know. Look "the project" is what matters; the EU is at heart non-democratic. Why? Because it was designed that way! Democracy and people get in the way of action so - you eliminate them but do so in a way that people don't notice. That has been the MO of the EU ever since its inception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, thehowler said: It's sophistry, part of the language some remainers have adopted in their determined struggle to delay and negate the result. I understand why. Many of them feel the unifying ambitions and achievements of the EU are right for the UK and sit at the very core of their sense of self. They will use any means at their disposal - and they are rich and powerful voices - to challenge and resist the result. But I fear the impetus and inexorability of a no-deal Brexit only grows stronger - and potentially more damaging for the UK - the more well-intentioned remainers bend their strength against it. Well you can cleanly break something in two and have nice smooth edges or you can keep pulling and pulling until it breaks apart and leaves a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, pig said: Nope. Nobody was 'complaining about the English moving into Wales and influencing things' that's entirely your Freudian slip. The point is simply that from this research it looks like Brexit is mainly an English issue. Its not about 'blaming' the English, but it does beg the question of what is going on with the English (or certain types of). If English Leavers are so keen to play the nationalist game then its of course problematic that all the other UK nations did not vote for Brexit - and that's not 'ironic' that's more like full on hypocrisy. Perhaps that explains the keenness to wrap Brexit in 'northern victimhood' .... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research It's not a 'nationalist game' , those are your words to try and put it down. It's about us deciding our own destiny for many years to come, which is the same for the Scots and even the Northerner's. England is not exactly one totally harmonious bunch, but we know how to defend our island together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, allfiredup said: It's not a 'nationalist game' , those are your words to try and put it down. It's about us deciding our own destiny for many years to come, which is the same for the Scots and even the Northerner's. England is not exactly one totally harmonious bunch, but we know how to defend our island together. England isn’t an island. Didn’t they teach geography in your school? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Supreme Court decision at 10:30 Tuesday... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: England isn’t an island. Didn’t they teach geography in your school? Here we go, another pointless change in direction... No wonder you keep crashing Edited September 23, 2019 by allfiredup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Just now, allfiredup said: Here we go, another pointless change in direction... It’s pretty fundamental. If your worldview is that we English are distinct from the Europeans because we are an island, the fact that there are other Europeans who are not us on the same island is a bit of a problem. Not only that but there are other Europeans on another island even further away from the mainland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: It’s pretty fundamental. If your worldview is that we English are distinct from the Europeans because we are an island, the fact that there are other Europeans who are not us on the same island is a bit of a problem. Not only that but there are other Europeans on another island even further away from the mainland. We're leading the charge, that's all. Also, don't confuse Europeans with the EU. Edited September 23, 2019 by allfiredup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, allfiredup said: It's not a 'nationalist game' , those are your words to try and put it down. It's about us deciding our own destiny for many years to come, which is the same for the Scots and even the Northerner's. England is not exactly one totally harmonious bunch, but we know how to defend our island together. Who is us? And who is sugar coating the perception of togetherness? I’m afraid I disagree, but I understand where you are coming from. Brexit and especially no deal extreme is forced on everyone by small group who will profit handsomely if it corporealizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Brexit began with Britpop. Or the British invasion. It's the knowledge and acceptance that the empire is long gone - I think we're way past empire angst - but it's the uncertainty of knowing whether it's OK to be proud of the flag, national anthems, spitfires, past accomplishments, present glories and what kind of life you can expect in the isles etc. It's about what it means to be English - but also about what it means to be Scots, Northern Irish and Welsh. So Brexit is just part of the union reassessing things as we enter the middle age of the internet and the whole global village thing begins to feel a bit tired and salary-shrinking, modern-capitalism-isn't-working grubby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, pig said: If English Leavers are so keen to play the nationalist game then its of course problematic that all the other UK nations did not vote for Brexit - and that's not 'ironic' that's more like full on hypocrisy. Surely the polity is the UK, a polity made up of separate nations. Whilst those nations may be culturally distinct are they that distinct to the point where disintegration is a real possibility? Is there really a conflict between these nations that is the equivalent of, say, that between the Wallonia and Flanders in Belguim? Or, for that matter, on a lesser scale, between North and South Italy? Or between East and West Germany? I can't see this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Just now, rollover said: Who is us? And who is sugar coating the perception of togetherness? I’m afraid I disagree, but I understand where you are coming from. Brexit and especially no deal extreme is forced on everyone by small group who will profit handsomely if it corporealizes. The last 40 years has probably been Europe's most successful attempt for a 1000 years. Perhaps because its more of an infiltration as opposed to an invasion. This has caused many to not notice, plus we are now having to deal with the infiltrators themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, allfiredup said: Here we go, another pointless change in direction... No wonder you keep crashing Once you fix your position, you have problem admit you are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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