Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[allfiredup]

3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Why have the people of England never been asked if they want to be in the UK?

Because there has never been a push for it, is my answer.

But i suspect you are sneakily looking to steer the ship into a crashing direction.. Be honest about what you want to know.

[thecrashingisles]

11 minutes ago, allfiredup said:

Because there has never been a push for it, is my answer.

But i suspect you are sneakily looking to steer the ship into a crashing direction.. Be honest about what you want to know.

In the only EU member state in which there was a push to leave, there was a referendum, and a process for an orderly withdrawal was negotiated.  You can't argue in good faith against that.

Edited September 23, 2019 by thecrashingisles

[allfiredup]

2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

In the only EU member state in which there was a push to leave, there was a referendum, and a process for an orderly withdrawal was negotiated.  You argue in good faith against that.

'orderly withdrawal' is BEING negotiated. That's the issue.

I dread to think what the negotiations of a Scottish withdrawal from the UK would look like..

[allfiredup]

And an English withdrawal from the UK is probably a contradiction in terms.

[thecrashingisles]

1 minute ago, allfiredup said:

'orderly withdrawal' is BEING negotiated. That's the issue.

I dread to think what the negotiations of a Scottish withdrawal from the UK would look like..

Apples and oranges.  Scotland isn't a 'member' of the UK.  The UK is a sovereign state, so in the initial divorce negotiations it's the UK on both sides of the table.

[allfiredup]

3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Apples and oranges.  Scotland isn't a 'member' of the UK.  The UK is a sovereign state, so in the initial divorce negotiations it's the UK on both sides of the table.

I let you have a go at the wheel, and you've done it again...

[thecrashingisles]

1 minute ago, allfiredup said:

I let you have a go at the wheel, and you've done it again...

If you're 'all fired up' for English sovereignty, you need to think about how the process of the dissolution of the UK will happen. ?

[zugzwang]

11 minutes ago, crouch said:

Surely the market is about the decentralisation of power not centralisation. Although the state has a role in a market economy the lietmotif of a market economy is freedom and competition.

Even Adam Smith knew that the unregulated free market was likely to lead a concentration of power in fewer and fewer hands as business owners conspired amongst themselves to defraud their customers.

[allfiredup]

1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said:

If you're 'all fired up' for English sovereignty, you need to think about how the process of the dissolution of the UK will happen. ?

Step back from the helm!!

[IMHAL]

37 minutes ago, allfiredup said:

You welcome to throw your weak misspelt insults around, that's fine.

Maybe many will vote on purely economic grounds (even though they almost always are highly debatable), if that's whats important to you then fine.

 

When people are poorer..they don't usually have a debate about it... it just is. Of course peoples finances are important to them....they can't eat or drink sovereignty and sovereignty does not pay their bills or pay the expenses to bring up their children. 

People vote for what is best for them. If Brexit cannot prove to be in their best interests then what is it for?

Edited September 23, 2019 by IMHAL

[allfiredup]

1 minute ago, IMHAL said:

When people are poorer..they don't usually have a debate about it... it just is. Of course peoples finances are important to them....they can't eat or drink sovereignty and sovereignty does not pay their bills or bring up their children. 

People vote for what is best for them. If Brexit cannot prove to be in their best interests then what is it for?

Its for them to be able to decide whats in their best interests.

Even IF at some point in the future that means begging to be let back in. Which going by our history, I very much doubt.

[crouch]

4 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

Even Adam Smith knew that the unregulated free market was likely to lead a concentration of power in fewer and fewer hands as business owners conspired amongst themselves to defraud their customers.

Absolutely and that's why you need the state to intervene to correct these abuses. Most proponents of capitalism do not know or will not admit that you need state involvement to make the system work. Quite apart from monopoly control you need developed contract law and indeed insolvency law.

[Grayphil]

10 minutes ago, allfiredup said:

I let you have a go at the wheel, and you've done it again...

Eh? Why do you think you are in charge of this? I saw a few pretty good ideas/suggestions. 

You aren't making much sense 

[crouch]

5 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

People vote for what is best for them. If Brexit cannot prove to be in their best interests then what is it for?

You are right. But do you limit "best interests" to economic interests, which I assume you do? If so that cannot be right because economic interests are one part of the story but they are not the whole story.

[allfiredup]

1 minute ago, Grayphil said:

Eh? Why do you think you are in charge of this? I saw a few pretty good ideas/suggestions. 

You aren't making much sense 

Sorry, I've just been playing with his name and misdirection tactics for the last couple of pages.

Although thinking about it, maybe his name and avatar are depicting the EU always crashing into our island... and sinking.

[zugzwang]

9 minutes ago, crouch said:

Absolutely and that's why you need the state to intervene to correct these abuses. Most proponents of capitalism do not know or will not admit that you need state involvement to make the system work. Quite apart from monopoly control you need developed contract law and indeed insolvency law.

You and I both know it to be true. ?

I'd like to hear Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg acknowledge it too.

[Grayphil]

14 minutes ago, allfiredup said:

Sorry, I've just been playing with his name and misdirection tactics for the last couple of pages.

Although thinking about it, maybe his name and avatar are depicting the EU always crashing into our island... and sinking.

Ahhhhh

[pig]

1 hour ago, allfiredup said:

Even if the majority of, say, Scotland don't want it?

And Brexit is more important. Its in the name 'BRITISH exit.

Let's do that first and then get our own house in order. I'd prefer the UK stayed together, but only if everyone wants to.

Lol yes but that is precisely the problem, 'BRITISH' does not mean 'ONLY WHAT THE ENGLISH WANT' - its in the name

Also If half the English are now fed up of the English carrying on like muppets over the last 3 years is there any surprise the Scots, (Welsh and NI) are too ?

 

[allfiredup]

2 minutes ago, pig said:

Lol yes but that is precisely the problem, 'BRITISH' does not mean 'ONLY WHAT THE ENGLISH WANT' - its in the name

Also If half the English are now fed up of the English carrying on like muppets over the last 3 years is there any surprise the Scots, (Welsh and NI) are too ?

 

I never said its only what the English want. The referendum was for the whole of the UK and leave won, thanks to the Scottish. ?

I don't recoqnise your second point at all, unless the muppet's you speak of are the Remainer MP's?

[Bruce Banner]

13 minutes ago, allfiredup said:

I never said its only what the English want. The referendum was for the whole of the UK and leave won, thanks to the Scottish. ?

I don't recoqnise your second point at all, unless the muppet's you speak of are the Remainer MP's?

Well we thought we did, but after over three years watching and learning, some of us have changed our minds. So who knows, perhaps remain will win.

[thehowler]

Remainers quickly understood that the 2 year (minimum) Art 50 cooling off period represented a time of flux for them to attempt to overturn/negate the ref result. It hasn't been difficult to pillory the process as leaving the EU is perhaps the most difficult trade treaty the UK has ever attempted, where we have very little leverage and must accept a worse outcome (initially, at least) than the status quo. Add to that the NI border, the desire of Scotland to stay in the EU and the pro-remain bias of Parliament, it's amazing - really incredible - that the remain camp still don't appear to have moved the great body of Brit public opinion to their cause.

We'll see in the coming GE.

To that end, I see Labour are inching closer to backing the NEC/Corbs line on no decision on Brexit before a GE and then a 2nd ref - perhaps because many members know that Corbs authority will vanish if he loses.

If it passes, Labour will be the 2nd ref - Peoples Vote - party.

 

[allfiredup]

8 minutes ago, thehowler said:

Remainers quickly understood that the 2 year (minimum) Art 50 cooling off period represented a time of flux for them to attempt to overturn/negate the ref result. It hasn't been difficult to pillory the process as leaving the EU is perhaps the most difficult trade treaty the UK has ever attempted, where we have very little leverage and must accept a worse outcome (initially, at least) than the status quo. Add to that the NI border, the desire of Scotland to stay in the EU and the pro-remain bias of Parliament, it's amazing - really incredible - that the remain camp still don't appear to have moved the great body of Brit public opinion to their cause.

We'll see in the coming GE.

To that end, I see Labour are inching closer to backing the NEC/Corbs line on no decision on Brexit before a GE and then a 2nd ref - perhaps because many members know that Corbs authority will vanish if he loses.

If it passes, Labour will be the 2nd ref - Peoples Vote - party.

 

Yes, with remain vs remain on the ballot paper..

[IMHAL]

1 hour ago, crouch said:

You are right. But do you limit "best interests" to economic interests, which I assume you do? If so that cannot be right because economic interests are one part of the story but they are not the whole story.

It's the whole story for the hand to mouth masses.The rest can afford to take a balanced view.

[crouch]

1 minute ago, IMHAL said:

It's the whole story for the hand to mouth masses.The rest can afford to take a balanced view.

And you speak for the masses? Congratulations El Duce!

[allfiredup]

6 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

It's the whole story for the hand to mouth masses.The rest can afford to take a balanced view.

Yeah but we're talking about Brexit, not the whole world a 100 years ago!