Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Guest]

I just stumbled across this: http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

No wonder that the young remainers who voted remain in the EEC referendum changed their minds so massively & comprehensively when they were older.....

They'd seen the same government pamphlet though the door bullsh1t before: 

Quote

We explain why the Government, after long, hard negotiations, are recommending to the British people that we should remain a member of the European Community.

We do not pretend, and never have pretended, that we got everything we wanted in these negotiations. But we did get big and significant improvements on the previous terms.

We confidently believe that these better terms can give Britain a New Deal in Europe. A Deal that will help us, help the Commonwealth, and help our partners in Europe.

 

Quote

THE NEW DEAL

The better terms which Britain will enjoy if we stay in the Common Market were secured only after long and tough negotiations.

These started in April 1974 and did not end until March of this year.

On March 10 and 11 the Heads of Government met in Dublin and clinched the bargain. On March 18 the Prime Minister was able to make this announcements:

'I believe that our renegotiation objectives have been substantially though not completely achieved.'

What were the main objectives to which Mr. Wilson referred? The most important were FOOD and MONEY and JOBS.

Yet they ended up with an EU as all encompassing, as horrendously difficult to leave as it is today.

Perhaps the (youthful remainers that voted remain in the EEC) became (old leavers that voted to leave the EU) partly through listening to the old proverb: 'Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.'

It's almost as if that £9,000,000 government pamphlet in the 2nd referendum was well spent.

[GrizzlyDave]

45 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

Yup...and it is an unknown quantity to see how long it would take to negotiate EFTA terms..

I think the length of negotiation isn’t an issue if the agreed destination is EFTA. Whether A50 is extended or we enter the transition period, it’s just a benign environment whilst these details are worked through. Though it’s in everyone’s interests for it to be expedient.

[kzb]

6 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

It's the the best deal the Brexiteers could get.

And it's everybody else's fault.

The UK side were not Brexiteers.  They were Remainers viewing it as a damage limitation exercise. 

Anyhow, we will shortly have our demonstration to the world that you cannot change anything through democracy.  When this deal goes through, it will be a demonstrable fact that people round the world can see for themselves.  

Fantastic.  I hope you are all pleased.

[kzb]

22 hours ago, rollover said:

May said on brexit deal 'you don't get everything you want's'.

Spot the difference:

PM's EU Council press statement: 25 Nov 2018, issued by No.10 and Rt Hon Theresa May MP

“And in fishing, it does not just deliver a bigger annual quota within the Common Fisheries Policy, it sets us free of the CFP for good and forever. The UK will be an independent coastal state once again, in full sovereign control of our waters, able to decide for ourselves who we allow to fish in them, with that access not tied to any other aspect of our economic partnership. That is in our national interest too.”

 

-EU official minutes, EU Summit, Declaration regarding Withdrawal Agreement & Political Declaration, 25 Nov 2018

“…the European Council will demonstrate particular vigilance as regards safeguarding the rights and interests of citizens, the necessity to maintain ambitious level playing field conditions and to protect fishing enterprises and coastal communities.

“This will apply both when assessing the implementation of the Withdrawal Agreement, if the backstop is to be operationalized, and when considering the future relationship, in particular in the field of environment regarding the alignment to European standards.

“As recalled in the Withdrawal Agreement, a fisheries agreement is a matter of priority, and should build on, inter alia, existing reciprocal access and quota shares. Such an agreement should be negotiated well before the end of the transition period.”

From

https://facts4eu.org/news.shtml

 

 

[Bruce Banner]

Someone's telling porkies?

[kzb]

9 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Someone's telling porkies?

Strictly speaking you could say no she is not lying.  But persons reading the PM's statement will get a completely misleading idea of what is going to happen.

What is going to happen is fishing quotas will be a bargaining chip, which will be given away at the first opportunity.

[Peter Hun]

24 minutes ago, kzb said:

The UK side were not Brexiteers.  They were Remainers viewing it as a damage limitation exercise

It's pathetic to blame your tools for a poor job. The only promise from the Conservatives prospectus was to deliver brexit. I didn't see the loony  half of the party come up with a better plan - they just ran away and hid.

May is the fall guy for a shitshow of the brexiteers making and you guys are lapping up the smokescreen because you don't want to admit you were utterly deceived by them.

[Shrink Proof]

10 minutes ago, kzb said:

What is going to happen is fishing quotas will be a bargaining chip, which will be given away at the first opportunity.

So fairly shortly a whole bunch of suddenly unemployed Scottish Tory MPs will be booted into the Lords to snooze at our expense. Nice.

[thehowler]

15 minutes ago, kzb said:

What is going to happen is fishing quotas will be a bargaining chip, which will be given away at the first opportunity.

Or bargained for something.

Aint that how it works?

[Shrink Proof]

1 minute ago, thehowler said:

Or bargained for something.

Ain't that how it works?

That's Earth you're talking about. It's not like that on Planet May.

[kzb]

21 minutes ago, Shrink Proof said:

That's Earth you're talking about. It's not like that on Planet May.

I don't know if her statement is deliberate deception (in which case it is a "lie"), or she is deluded. 

Being more charitable perhaps her advisors are misleading her.

[kzb]

34 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

It's pathetic to blame your tools for a poor job. The only promise from the Conservatives prospectus was to deliver brexit. I didn't see the loony  half of the party come up with a better plan - they just ran away and hid.

May is the fall guy for a shitshow of the brexiteers making and you guys are lapping up the smokescreen because you don't want to admit you were utterly deceived by them.

But they were Remain Tools !

[Bruce Banner]

39 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

It's pathetic to blame your tools for a poor job. The only promise from the Conservatives prospectus was to deliver brexit. I didn't see the loony  half of the party come up with a better plan - they just ran away and hid.

May is the fall guy for a shitshow of the brexiteers making and you guys are lapping up the smokescreen because you don't want to admit you were utterly deceived by them.

May is exactly where she wants to be and she will do whatever she thinks is necessary to stay there. 

From "Snoopers Charter" to "Brexit means Brexit", that woman is a bloody disaster, not just bloody difficult.

Hopefully, she will soon be dragged screaming and kicking out of No 10.

[IMHAL]

5 minutes ago, kzb said:

But they were Remain Tools !

The 'Leave Tools' ran away or did not want the job or made excuses as to why they could not do the job.

The 'Leave Tools' (BoJo, Fox, Gove et al) did not come up with a credible alternative proposal. It sounds like sour grapes. It's another fine mess that the Leavers made ..... and which they do not have any answer for.

You have to accept that the reason that the current Brexit deal is a bad deal and worse than remain is because there is no better deal available....... your 'notion' of a nirvana Brexit is not based on the reality of the situation and thus is fatally flawed.

The reality is it's this 'bad deal', or no deal or remain.....May has been quite honest about the available choices.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, kzb said:

But they were Remain Tools !

If you have a piece of wood & a saw then you have a tool that you are responsible for.

If you have a politician that has opposite views to yours, elected by a system unrelated to the Brexit opinion poll, that came to power through an unrepresentative FPTP duopoly, May is no more a tool of the people who voted 'leave' in the opinion poll - than a tool of those who voted 'remain'.

[Bruce Banner]

1 minute ago, IMHAL said:

The 'Leave Tools' ran away or did not want the job or made excuses as to why they could not do the job.

The 'Leave Tools' (BoJo, Fox, Gove et al) did not come up with a credible alternative proposal. It sounds like sour grapes. It's another fine mess that the Leavers made ..... and which they do not have any answer for.

You have to accept that the reason that the current Brexit deal is a bad deal and worse than remain is because there is no better deal available....... your 'notion' of a nirvana Brexit is not based on the reality of the situation and thus is fatally flawed.

The reality is it's this 'bad deal', or no deal or remain.....May has been quite honest about the available choices.

What about a second referendum? Surely that's an available choice?

[IMHAL]

3 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

What about a second referendum? Surely that's an available choice?

Are we ready for it yet? When the realisation that the only viable and sensible option is to remain then perhaps we will be....

[Bruce Banner]

10 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

Are we ready for it yet? When the realisation that the only viable and sensible option is to remain then perhaps we will be....

The right option is the one the people vote for,  be it remain, leave, or May's hybrid abomination.

[IMHAL]

15 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

The right option is the one the people vote for,  be it remain, leave, or May's hybrid abomination.

Of course...... you are correct. But they did vote Brexit and they got....Brexit. Just a flavour of Brexit that apparently some hard line leavers do not like.

It's a pity that Brexit was not specified in more deal in the first place and tested to see if it was a valid option before being put to the people..... we might have avoided this  car crash before we took the hand break off.

BTW ...... what ever happened to No Deal being better than a Bad Deal?.... did that get chucked out with all the other BS sound bites? 

Edited November 26, 2018 by IMHAL

[cashinmattress]

6 hours ago, prozac said:

This will ruin a lot of careers in the Conservative party 

Brexit will ruin a lot of careers, period. And not just politicians.

[Sledgehead]

1 hour ago, thehowler said:

Or bargained for something.

Aint that how it works?

Ah yes, or what those in the know would refer to as 'horse-trading'. Ali G becomes an expert on it in this video shott back in the day (horsetrading starts @ 48 secs):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObDWxzQXbLQ

[cashinmattress]

4 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

BTW ...... what ever happened to No Deal being better than a Bad Deal?.... did that get chucked out with all the other BS sound bites? 

Platitudes IMHAL.

Hollow political point scoring platitudes with perhaps a few aphorisms here and there.

Easy meaningless phrases for thickos to rally behind.

Perhaps they are engineered as such as they fit on the front page of the nations rags?

[Sledgehead]

3 hours ago, highYield said:

The only polls that matter, the original one to join the EEC, and the one to leave the EU, clearly demonstrate that people change their views as they age

 

So the change in the complexion of the european project over this period had nothing to do with it?

'Course not, right? Europe is a bastion of stability, steadfastness and reliability. A rock in a ranging torrent of change. That's why "Remain" needs no explanation, right? Only "Leave" has many forms, yes?

History says no.

 

[IMHAL]

12 minutes ago, cashinmattress said:

Platitudes IMHAL.

Hollow political point scoring platitudes with perhaps a few aphorisms here and there.

Easy meaningless phrases for thickos to rally behind.

Perhaps they are engineered as such as they fit on the front page of the nations rags?

I quite liked and thought the 'Red, White and Blue' Brexit rang true.............and it does look like we'll get a Labour, Conservative or the White flag of surrender Brexit after all

Edit: the soundbite breaks down a little as the cons have adopted the white flag Brexit.....and.....most likely if labour get in they'll adopt it too.

Edited November 26, 2018 by IMHAL

[rollover]

1 hour ago, Bruce Banner said:

What about a second referendum? Surely that's an available choice?

Agree, with two options:

1) Brexit (the May's Brexit deal, only real and possible to deliver)

2) Remain (revoke article 50)