Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[HairyOb1]

4 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

The thing is Hairy. Being half-in suits nobody. It only means this argument will continue in perpetuity. It resolves nothing.

But I think you're probably right.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-vote-lords-eu-liam-fox-eu-withdrawal-delay-date-a8330481.html

Well for me, as long as the can gets kicked until 2022, I am fine with it, then it can, and will, form the basis of the GE. 

I also think with all of the arch brexiteers now complaining about the HoL holding sway over the HoC (they don't) and everyone buying into it, it shows they are scared, and cowed.  Anyone with half a brain knows that all the HoL can do is vote things down and put amendments in, which have to be voted on.  What they really do fear, is that the HoC can and should vote for a few of these amendments, that's why Fox et al are complaining, as they realise it's just been made increasingly difficult to force through any kind of brexit really, well any kind of meaningful one.

Couldn't be happier this week, to be honest.

[HairyOb1]

5 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

This is not true - they are all as split as the population. Look at both Labour and the Tories tearing each other apart as we are.

We need two countries.

Cynical yes, which is why I can see past the illusion and straight into the eyes of the little man pulling all the levers. It's all Wizard of Oz stuff.

All you've done now, is get ccc to get literal, I think within 30 minutes, ccc will post figures of the last GE, in which he will purport 80% of the electorate voted for a brexit party.

I'm off out for dinner now, but that will tickle me.  He doesn't seem able to grasp nuance.

But then again, he is ignoring me not ignoring me, so will probably hold back if he can help himself

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

The thing is Hairy. Being half-in suits nobody. It only means this argument will continue in perpetuity. It resolves nothing.

But I think you're probably right.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-vote-lords-eu-liam-fox-eu-withdrawal-delay-date-a8330481.html

 

I can see posts from desperate ignored posters when others quote them; I've been happily living on the continent uninterrupted since January - if we do leave, I'm supremely confident that I'll be capable of finding a way to work around any restrictions that the EU imposes. 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Guest
to find => of finding

[OnionTerror]

1 hour ago, thehowler said:

After two years of ranting, has a single poster on this thread changed their mind? The only people I've met who have changed their minds are remainers who are disappointed by the attitude of the EU.

Yep...went from remain to leave.  However, the EU are working with the UK's red lines, thus the outcome is a CETA type deal.. 

[rollover]

4 hours ago, thehowler said:

You believed what the politicians were telling you?

Exactly:

Don't listen to what they say watch what they do!

 

Quote

 

Brexiteers change their tune on Lords power

Last night, the House of Lords voted overwhelmingly to give our Parliament more control. Instead of having just a “take it or leave it” vote on the Brexit deal, MPs and peers would have a say on the key elements of that deal.

Making sure that decisions affecting our lives are taken in Westminster, not Brussels, was one of their principal arguments for leaving the EU. And as individual MPs, leading Brexiteers such as Jacob Rees-Mogg, Bernard Jenkin and David Davis have always been very particular that when they say “Westminster” they don’t mean Whitehall.

Suddenly, like other Brexiteers, they have become converts to the doctrine of untrammelled executive power: Government alone should decide and stuff Parliament.

There’s another thing many of them have recently changed their mind on: ES

 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, rollover said:

Exactly:

Don't listen to what they say watch what they do!

Rollover, you're German - aren't you?

I'm interested in your VI - do you have UK residency? Were you entitled to vote in the Brexit referendum?

I'd be grateful if you'd be honest re: your skin in the game.

[SpectrumFX]

3 hours ago, jonb2 said:

Now I know you are really, really reaching howler

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/27/heres-all-the-leave-campaigners-whove-backtracked-on-the-nhs-350m-promise-5969165/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nearly-half-of-britons-believe-vote-leaves-false-350-million-a-week-to-the-eu-claim-a7085016.html

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/brexit-camp-abandons-350-million-pound-nhs-pledge

https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2269900/that-350m-a-week-promise-for-the-nhs

https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2275889/the-nhs-350-million-a-week-make-sure-they-don-t-fob-us-off/p3

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/great-brexit-betrayal-vote-leave-8288667

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexiteers-condemned-for-not-backing-350m-nhs-amendment-to-eu-withdrawal-bill-a7570336.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/11/still-think-nhs-will-get-350-million-week-brexit-dont-know-talking/

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/farage-says-350million-nhs-pledge-was-a-mistake-5963794/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnsons-brexit-campaign-prints-7943300

http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2016/06/trust-bunch-brexiteers-nhs-nhssaferin/

 

Yeah, but it turns out that the figure on the bus was actually too low, as I pointed out a couple of hundred pages back.

?

, 

[rollover]

2 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

Yeah, but it turns out that the figure on the bus was actually too low, as I pointed out a couple of hundred pages back.

?

, 

It turns out the NHS will need more than that.

NHS needs '£50bn extra by 2030'

[thehowler]

3 hours ago, jonb2 said:

No, what you said was nobody believed it. They did. They believed all the b*llocks.

Nope, I said that I thought they had reasons of their own for voting leave, and then I listed a few. To demonise the bus effectively you have to portray it as widely believed by the electorate, even though the truth is it was just part of the semiotic theatre of events and was cartoonish from the off, widely mocked as soon as it appeared. Much like May and her catchphrase strong and stable in the last GE, it was pilloried immediately. Sadly much of the base remain argument insists that most Brits are dullards, in itself a stupid and self-defeating rhetorical position. As for your all you need is...

3 hours ago, jonb2 said:

critical thinking and curiosity to know Brexit was a ruse leading to nowhere.

you could say the same about any political event, Brexit is no different. Politics is a really bad magic show, when you can see the cards poking out from the conjuror's cuff. When's the last time we had a GE and the winning party delivered on their manifesto? And what percentage of the populace read a manifesto? It's ludicrous to describe the public as informed in any of the democratic process, hence me saying it's all a leap of faith many hundreds of posts ago.

Brexit is that much rarer thing - the people really getting to choose to make things different - and that's what makes it so terrifying.

[thehowler]

3 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

Well for me, as long as the can gets kicked until 2022, I am fine with it, then it can, and will, form the basis of the GE. 

Not that Article 50 can or will be revoked - and no court has ruled on this yet so please don't say it's legally possible - even if you get your GE, do you remember my Brexit stats for England, mocked as irrelevant earlier today? (Your move, jonb2.) Labour and the Tories have to win in England - SNP and NI are out of bounds regards seats really. Do you think they will risk electoral oblivion in England for their principles? Then you have a higher regard for the political class than I.

[maverick73]

14 minutes ago, rollover said:

It turns out the NHS will need more than that.

NHS needs '£50bn extra by 2030'

Its always going to need money... Its ok the government prints money freely ?

[Confusion of VIs]

4 hours ago, thehowler said:

Other than air miles, nope. But given he's forbidden to conduct any formal trade negotiations or announce anything of substance prior to transition, it's hardly surprising.

US/UK trade deal might well be the big reveal of transition - that and Boris getting ready to announce the first £350 mill weekly payment to NHS from January 1st 2021!

It's much worse than that. In addition to completely failing to deliver what he promised was easily deliverable, he hasn't even got a deliverable plan for moving back to trading on WTO terms.

 

[thecrashingisles]

1 hour ago, thehowler said:

Not that Article 50 can or will be revoked - and no court has ruled on this yet so please don't say it's legally possible - even if you get your GE, do you remember my Brexit stats for England, mocked as irrelevant earlier today? (Your move, jonb2.) Labour and the Tories have to win in England - SNP and NI are out of bounds regards seats really. Do you think they will risk electoral oblivion in England for their principles? Then you have a higher regard for the political class than I.

If you think the result of the referendum in England means that people care about Brexit, as opposed to just making a forced choice against a backdrop of relentless anti-EU propaganda (and some real concerns) you will be sorely disabused over the coming year.

[IMHAL]

5 hours ago, highYield said:

1 - Matey, you're amongst a few people moaning about the results of a democratic vote (that went against you) on an inconsequential forum that isn't going to change the world. Had you not noticed, leavers won the referendum and it looks increasingly likely that we will indeed leave.

2 - There's only one 'side' that can be described as 'desperate' - and that's the few desperate losers on here. Desperate, desperate, desperate.

3 - You do bring up a good point about IP. A few weeks ago, heard a great interview with a town planner - of all things - excited about how he could bring his UK experiences to our developing partners - especially India. Let's hope we can begin to export our world leading property rights & legal systems to our new, expanding, friends & trading partners.

 

1 - Yes we are few on here and yes the referendum was lost. I really and honestly have come to terms with that. It is done and dusted - what I do despair at is those ignorant enough to think we can get free trade deals where the EU have 'failed'. It is so easy for Leavers to trot out those 'we can do deals with China and India' mem's to justify that Brexit will be Ok. Frankly you and others seem to be clueless about the difficulties and the consequences of what you are saying. Your simplification does not translate to real life reality. 

2 - We shall have to wait to see who the losers are, however, Brexit is shaping up nicely to be a loser for all. The fact that I point out the issues regarding signing trade deals with India and China and the issues  with IP rights involved ...... and  you have the cheek to call me desperate???? To me it sounds like you are all closed ears to any potential problems. It makes you look like the desperate one....desperate to justify Brexit at any cost. That does not fill me with any confidence in your ability to look at these issues logically.

3 - Exporting our intellectual property rights (not property rights) is very different to having them stolen by China and India - I do hope that you can see this and realise the significance of why the EU has not yet signed trade deals with China and India (the protection of our Ip is taken seriously by the EU). Sadly this point is lost on some leavers who think that EU have 'failed' with China and India where on the other hand we can 'waltz in' and sign a deal ..... without acknowledging the real and significant blocking issues involved.  

Edited May 1, 2018 by IMHAL

[rollover]

5 hours ago, highYield said:

 

There's only one 'side' that can be described as 'desperate' - and that's the few desperate losers on here. Desperate, desperate, desperate.

 

You could be right.

I am coming to the same conclusion, Brexiters are getting more and more desperate lately, and are watching with disbelief, as Brexit is conceding loss after loss and nicely falling apart.

 

[thehowler]

19 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

If you think the result of the referendum in England means that people care about Brexit,

What do you mean by just making a forced choice? Turnout was greater than any vote since 97, wasn't it? I'd say that suggests a degree of enthusiasm.

[SHERWICK]

Can we have a referendum on £100,000 to everyone with no cuts to public services, no increase in inflation, and no addition to the national debt please?

I think we'd have a huge turnout!

[ZeroSumGame]

7 minutes ago, rollover said:

You could be right.

I am coming to the same conclusion, Brexiters are getting more and more desperate lately, and are watching with disbelief, as Brexit is conceding loss after loss and nicely falling apart.

 

I've got to hand it to the can-kicker-in-chief, she's playing a blinder. The drop goal queen will put Owen Farrell and Johnny Sexton to shame with her prowess.

As far as non-BREXIT goes, I had to have a laugh out loud when I saw the front page of  the Daily Heil was frothing about the unelected Brussels collaborators in the House of Lords.

Unelected? Shurely Shome Mishtake??

Here's an earlier quote from the king of Brexitopia. Jacob Wee Smog......

Quote

But six years ago, when the then Coalition government tried to introduce elected lords, many of these Brexiteers voted against.

Mr Rees-Mogg led the Tory rebellion. Mr Jenkin asked why we were replacing the “current effective, proven and appointed House with more elected politicians”.  

The ES

 

 Oh, how we laughed.......???

[thehowler]

And we really think we know what's going on behind the scenes...what a farce. The deal's no doubt already been made. We just get to pick up the crumbs from the table.

[thecrashingisles]

1 hour ago, thehowler said:

What do you mean by just making a forced choice? Turnout was greater than any vote since 97, wasn't it? I'd say that suggests a degree of enthusiasm.

Based on that logic the most popular prime minister in British history was John Major.  Is that what you think?

[Sheeple Splinter]

9 hours ago, IMHAL said:

You originally asked this question.

"Why would anyone want to stay in the EU when it has member states that are racist and xenophobic?"

The answer lies in the article above - because the EU is trying to do the right thing despite the xenophobic tendencies of some nations.... so thanks for posting that. Which is the point I made to your question originally.....if you had been listening.

I did originally ask that question and in between your first and last posts you have managed to mire yourself further in your hypocrisy whilst avoiding my responses and a few inconvenient truths.

Sigh. 

Your original answer was:

"2 - racism and xenophobia exist everywhere, the EU are not fond of it, have no deliberate policies to promote it and indeed want to rid us of it. So Yes, I would gladly put my name to that."

How does...

Quote

...The Bulgarian proposal, backed by Berlin, would extend that period to 10 years, meaning that those frontline states would potentially be responsible for any new arrival for a decade...

... rid us of it? ...

Hang on, I think you have already answered that, "...because the EU is trying to do the right thing despite the xenophobic tendencies of some nations..." 

... ooops!

Remind me what the legal repercussions are in the event of a racist hate crime in the UK?

[Sheeple Splinter]

9 hours ago, IMHAL said:

And there was me thinking that the reason that the EU did not sign an FTA with China and India is because the EU insists that intellectual property rights are respected and that China and India want this clause 'set-aside'.

But don't let that little detail spoil your big scoop.

And how do you think the UK will fair with these countries that want to steal our intellectual property?.... I suppose you are happy to hand that all over on a plate...... who's side are you on?

Thanks for IP update...

On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 23:54, Sheeple Splinter said:

My point is that the linked articles clearly point out the serious concerns that the EU/Germany have about China's strategy. I believe it is more of an existential threat to the EU than the migration threat.

I agree the UK deficit is poor but to get back to the point about China's strategy and the EU's trade prowess incompetence, here's a UK example:

Guess which one of these is the actual Evoque. The Landwind X7 debuted at the Guangzhou motor show in November of 2014.PHOTO BY AUTOWEEK
 

 

... you have overlooked the fact that the EU failed to do this in its existing trade agreements with China.

[GrizzlyDave]

12 hours ago, kzb said:

I don't associate Brexit with the right wing, as I've said before. 

In 1974 the most visible Leave campaigners were left-wingers.  It was the Tories who took us in the EU, and Labour and unions who tried to get us out again.

I am posting it because it is new material on here for discussion.  We could keep recycling the side-of-bus story until we bleed, if you'd prefer.

 

Tony Benn

[GrizzlyDave]

On 14/10/2017 at 23:54, Sheeple Splinter said:

 

Guess which one of these is the actual Evoque. The Landwind X7 debuted at the Guangzhou motor show in November of 2014.PHOTO BY AUTOWEEK

That’s fecking outrageous!!!

[HairyOb1]

12 hours ago, highYield said:

I can see posts from desperate ignored posters when others quote them; I've been happily living on the continent uninterrupted since January - if we do leave, I'm supremely confident that I'll be capable of finding a way to work around any restrictions that the EU imposes. 

Hahaha, you're going the full ccc

So queries everyone's position re their vi, lives in mainland EU and wants to stay.  What an utter melon.

9 hours ago, thehowler said:

Not that Article 50 can or will be revoked - and no court has ruled on this yet so please don't say it's legally possible - even if you get your GE, do you remember my Brexit stats for England, mocked as irrelevant earlier today? (Your move, jonb2.) Labour and the Tories have to win in England - SNP and NI are out of bounds regards seats really. Do you think they will risk electoral oblivion in England for their principles? Then you have a higher regard for the political class than I.

It can be revoked, it's been to court and proven to be the case, look up Joleyn Maughan QC, or whatever his name is (I'll edit later as I am not too sure this is his name correctly spelled)

You do realise that any GE isn't just England, yes?

Labour and Tories would like more in Scotland, which, pro rata, have more MP's than anywhere else.

SNP and Sinn Fein are Pro EU.  So I don't understand your point there anyway.

You're literally all over thew place with this response.

7 hours ago, rollover said:

You could be right.

I am coming to the same conclusion, Brexiters are getting more and more desperate lately, and are watching with disbelief, as Brexit is conceding loss after loss and nicely falling apart.

I know, it's a delicious irony that they're getting more confident, just as the ramparts are being dismantled