Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

If you can work, full time, you're not a child.  If you can have kids, live on your own, get married, you're not a kid.  Lets not change the goalposts to suit the narrative.

1 hour ago, HairyOb1 said:

The trouble is, it doesn't suit your narrative, so you're arguing against it.  But I think it's hard to argue against paying tax, therefore having a voice about how that tax money is spent.

 

Your focus on narrative gave me pause for thought. This is a pretty inconsequential chat forum - it's not as if the HPC collective are in any way advisors to the advisors to the advisors of the UK gubbermint, let alone any tiny subsection of the even more remote EU one.

Why does anyone care about narrative? By doing so, aren't we just becoming tiny, utterly inconsequential politicians, following the party line - perhaps this is a tiny inconsequential microcosm that excuses the division of the UK on party/Brexit lines? - what is the point of any (projected?) narrative if there is no effective (falsely integrated) policy to sell behind the story? Aren't we at least attempting to get to the core of any ideas/principles/prejudices? Without the usual political ********/lying/positioning for banker directorships? Otherwise what is the point of us typing away?

We're not politicians selling lies - what we promote/say here doesn't really matter much at all. Narratives would therefore appear to be pointless.

edit: yes, that was a post pub post

Edited September 28, 2017 by Guest

[Confusion of VIs]

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/our-campaign-was-too-centralised-prime-minister-says-llg9lw8xv

Quote

Theresa May      "The Conservative party was caught off guard by the snap election"

With a genius like this in charge how could Brexit possibly end badly/

[rollover]

Quote

Around 20 UK civil servants to leave Brexit department FT

More departures from Davis department.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/our-campaign-was-too-centralised-prime-minister-says-llg9lw8xv

With a genius like this in charge how could Brexit possibly end badly/

Sounds bonkers, but more behind the paywall stuff - totally inaccessible this time beyond the 1st 3 paragraphs. Do you really subscribe to the FT, Spectator & the Times? Or just post stuff from a Google newsfeed? At least FT articles can be accessed from the Googled title, and Spectator through TorBrowser.

That must cost nearly as much as Futuroid's £600+ a year subscription to his politicial stats site.

[HairyOb1]

1 hour ago, highYield said:

Your focus on narrative gave me pause for thought. This is a pretty inconsequential chat forum - it's not as if the HPC collective are in any way advisors to the advisors to the advisors of the UK gubbermint, let alone any tiny subsection of the even more remote EU one.

Why does anyone care about narrative? By doing so, aren't we just becoming tiny, utterly inconsequential politicians, following the party line - perhaps this is a tiny inconsequential microcosm that excuses the division of the UK on party/Brexit lines? - what is the point of any (projected?) narrative if there is no effective (falsely integrated) policy to sell behind the story? Aren't we at least attempting to get to the core of any ideas/principles/prejudices? Without the usual political ********/lying/positioning for banker directorships? Otherwise what is the point of us typing away?

We're not politicians selling lies - what we promote/say here doesn't really matter much at all. Narratives would therefore appear to be pointless.

edit: yes, that was a post pub post

I get the inconsequential site, and all that, but you can still have a narrative, and it's obvious which one was being followed here.  As I said, before the referendum, it was planned to give 16-18 yo's the vote, but was shouted down (for obvious reasons), but now it's being mooted again, the restless brexiteers are calling foul.  However, as I said, if they pax taxes, or can pay taxes, they should have a right to.  They aren't kids.

26 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/our-campaign-was-too-centralised-prime-minister-says-llg9lw8xv

With a genius like this in charge how could Brexit possibly end badly/

I am genuinely bewildered she can continue in power when she continues to pop crap out like this.  It's borderline mental disorder stuff.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

I get the inconsequential site, and all that, but you can still have a narrative, and it's obvious which one was being followed here.  As I said, before the referendum, it was planned to give 16-18 yo's the vote, but was shouted down (for obvious reasons), but now it's being mooted again, the restless brexiteers are calling foul.  However, as I said, if they pax taxes, or can pay taxes, they should have a right to.  They aren't kids.

I'd agree with you. Not that our opinion on here changes much at all.

6 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

I am genuinely bewildered she can continue in power when she continues to pop crap out like this.  It's borderline mental disorder stuff.

It's almost as if our politicians are useless bu66ers.

[rollover]

37 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/our-campaign-was-too-centralised-prime-minister-says-llg9lw8xv

With a genius like this in charge how could Brexit possibly end badly/

And she probably catapulted Jeremy Corbyn to become the next PM.

Brexit for the many, not just the few! 

Edited September 28, 2017 by rollover

[HairyOb1]

1 minute ago, highYield said:

I'd agree with you. Not that our opinion on here changes much at all.

It's almost as if our politicians are useless bu66ers.

You're right, it doesn't, but I find it interesting when the chat gets more technical, and you ask questions of yourself, and also, I have found, you're reading into things in more depth, because when you discuss things, you're sometimes finding out things you weren't aware of, so it's always good.

Yes, but in this case, I mean, I am a bit lost for words if this is a genuine quote.

[rollover]

 

Quote

 

Boris Johnson faces calls to be sacked after 'breaking Ministerial Code' with hard Brexit event

He is facing calls to be sacked and the prospect of an official investigation over allegations he abused his position by using government resources to host a hard Brexit event at the Foreign Office.

Several elements of its agenda contradict official Government policy. In a move likely to pile pressure on the beleaguered Foreign Secretary, Labour and Liberal Democrat MPs have written to Theresa May and Jeremy Heywood, the Cabinet Secretary, demanding an official investigation into whether Mr Johnson and Mr Fox broke the Ministerial Code.

The code states: “Ministers are provided with facilities at Government expense to enable them to carry out their official duties. These facilities should not generally be used for Party or constituency activities. “Government property should not generally be used for constituency work or party political activities.”

 

Boris is in it again.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

You're right, it doesn't, but I find it interesting when the chat gets more technical, and you ask questions of yourself, and also, I have found, you're reading into things in more depth, because when you discuss things, you're sometimes finding out things you weren't aware of, so it's always good.

Yes, but in this case, I mean, I am a bit lost for words if this is a genuine quote.

I'd very much agree with everything you say above. Plus, for me, It's great not to have to bore friends with political rambling and also to bounce ideas off different thinking people. But a few on here take it too personally and seriously. It's just a discussion forum.

The first 3 paragraphs of the linked Times article were bonkers. Scary stuff.

[HairyOb1]

Just now, highYield said:

I'd very much agree with everything you say above. Plus, for me, It's great not to have to bore friends with political rambling and also to bounce ideas off different thinking people. But a few on here take it too personally and seriously. It's just a discussion forum.

The first 3 paragraphs of the linked Times article were bonkers. Scary stuff.

Yes, this board has kept me out of trouble with some people, I must admit.

Some do take it a bit personally, which baffles me, to be frank.  I must admit to being able to give as good as I take, but it doesn't consume me.  I'd find it funny if I knew some people on here, as I have on a professional forum which was funny meeting them for the first time, and knowing they're going to be nothing like their online persona!

[Confusion of VIs]

1 hour ago, highYield said:

Sounds bonkers, but more behind the paywall stuff - totally inaccessible this time beyond the 1st 3 paragraphs. Do you really subscribe to the FT, Spectator & the Times? Or just post stuff from a Google newsfeed? At least FT articles can be accessed from the Googled title, and Spectator through TorBrowser.

That must cost nearly as much as Futuroid's £600+ a year subscription to his politicial stats site. spectator 

FT I get a work subscription, Times is mine (should really get around to cancelling it) , Spectator just occasionally look at so don't hit whatever the free limit is.

 

 

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, HairyOb1 said:

I am genuinely bewildered she can continue in power when she continues to pop crap out like this.  It's borderline mental disorder stuff.

Reading the comments there is interesting. Not one is positive. If The Times readership hate her - what's Brexit supporter Murdoch gonna do?

He can't back Boris, as he's gone unstable with a questionable population consensus. It's an anathema for him to support Corbyn. Hopefully this dilemma will cause the old digger's final demise.

[HairyOb1]

1 minute ago, jonb2 said:

Reading the comments there is interesting. Not one is positive. If The Times readership hate her - what's Brexit supporter Murdoch gonna do?

He can't back Boris, as he's gone unstable with a questionable population consensus. It's an anathema for him to support Corbyn. Hopefully this dilemma will cause the old digger's final demise.

We can but hope

[OnionTerror]

8 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

FT I get a work subscription, Times is mine (should really get around to cancelling it) , Spectator just occasionally look at so don't hit whatever the free limit is.

 

 

You can much of the content under the behindthepaywallblog website.

[jonb2]

1 minute ago, Dave Beans said:

You can much of the content under the behindthepaywallblog website.

Yoda, may the horse be with you.

[sPinwheel]

1 hour ago, rollover said:

 

Boris is in it again.

What's the probability of him being the next PM.

[jonb2]

4 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

1. Juncker's SoU speech was not even fully attended and within hours both Denmark and the Netherlands scotched his, 'one head honcho' bid.

2. I disagree and, moreover, the EU will sink deeper into the morass if it does not reform. 

http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/07/14/post-brexit-europeans-more-positive-about-the-eu-but-want-own-referendum-on-membership/

 

Sheeple, as always - good graphs, good points.

Remains to be seen if they listen. I think it's the deafness of those in charge which is the main reason for so much anger. Reading the TM link down-thread - our government are the most progressed with this affliction.

I wonder about Brexiteers being swayed by reform - logically they should be. But thinking about it, the worst thing that could happen to Brexit politicians is for the EU to improve - so their rhetoric would simply increase. The question is which side would the pro-leavers listen to and believe? People still need a target for their anger.

 

[Sheeple Splinter]

39 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Sheeple, as always - good graphs, good points.

Remains to be seen if they listen. I think it's the deafness of those in charge which is the main reason for so much anger. Reading the TM link down-thread - our government are the most progressed with this affliction.

I wonder about Brexiteers being swayed by reform - logically they should be. But thinking about it, the worst thing that could happen to Brexit politicians is for the EU to improve - so their rhetoric would simply increase. The question is which side would the pro-leavers listen to and believe? People still need a target for their anger.

 

Thanks, Jon - the rest of the linked presentation is worth perusing too.

As mentioned upthread, the standard of the Elefantenrunde at the end of the German election would be my preferred standard for UK politics:

UK Party politics encourages division with the intent of furthering the party by deriding personalities, policies and events. e.g. Grenfell Tower. Usually, the opposing parties are the targets but the blue and red camps have/are using it internally. 

That said, would the UK public prefer the above standards of professionalism or the name-calling, dog whistle taunting, mis-directing performances served up daily by the MSM? Biff-bam (Dr North's term) media coverage is exemplified in this article:

Quote

...It will be a relief for the hacks to work with familiar faces and parties whose spokespersons obediently provide endless quotes and interviews. The media can then indulge in its favourite pastime of biff-bam politics without having to trouble itself with arcane technical details about treaties and the like. ...

http://eureferendum.com/results.aspx?keyword=biff

I think the EU elite patently have their agenda, but imagine if the European Parliament actually had the power to call for national referenda to seek the citizens' vision for the future of the EU? 

I think Brexiters would be positive about EU reform - just depends on how it's packaged...

 

[Confusion of VIs]

1 hour ago, jonb2 said:

Sheeple, as always - good graphs, good points.

Remains to be seen if they listen. I think it's the deafness of those in charge which is the main reason for so much anger. Reading the TM link down-thread - our government are the most progressed with this affliction.

I wonder about Brexiteers being swayed by reform - logically they should be. But thinking about it, the worst thing that could happen to Brexit politicians is for the EU to improve - so their rhetoric would simply increase. The question is which side would the pro-leavers listen to and believe? People still need a target for their anger.

 

If you saw the C4 News Brexit discussion tonight (audience all Leave voters, invited to discuss how things are going) you would doubt that.

The piece was depressing on two levels, from realising: 

 - just how uniformed the audience was, almost all were parroting Daily Mail/Express views and completely ignorant of the practicalities of leaving.

- that if this audience is in any way representative, Brexit will be seen as a sell out by almost all the Leave voters owing to the impossibility of reconciling their simplistic and contradictory views with reality. 

I even thought I could see a flicker of panic cross Daniel Hanan's face, as he realised that for most the only acceptable Brexit would be one where we stop paying into the EU now, immediately hand the cash to the NHS, leave the EU tomorrow and reach the sunlit uplands where everything gets better sometime next week.

 

 

         

[ExiledMatty]

19 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

22 hours ago, ExiledMatty said:

1. This is one thing I hate about the UK. Tall poppy syndrome. We never celebrate entreprenuership, and this is partly why we will always lag behind the likes of the USA, Germany etc in terms of business and innovation.

2.  I know people that work for Dyson in the West of England. He has created wealth, tax money and jobs. If they didn't manufacture overseas then Dyson would go bust. Do you really need this simple economics spelt out?

3.  He'll have contributed way more to our society than a million public sector workers pushing around pointless emails all day.

1.  This isn't tall poppy syndrome.  He has outsourced his manufacturing to save himself money and give taxes to other countries.  He preaches not what he sows.

2.  His HQ is in Wiltshire, now his Tech division too, but his manufacturing is in Asia.  You get this don't you?  He is promoting leaving the EU, yet doesn't manufacture here, so it will cost him nothing more WTSHTF.  He is utterly nothing to be proud of, on the contrary.  I hope this venture into autonomous electric vehicle bankrupts him.

3.  A simple straw man again, has no place here, reason or link.  That really is desperate.

21 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Lol, so true. He can be a bit of a tit, but credit where credit is due. We could do with many more of him in this country.

Yes, manufacturing in this country.  I agree.  But he's not, he's profiting from cheaper labour elsewhere, then sailing companies up the river here.  He's a grade A hypercritical shite.

You know nothing about economics or business.

Wiltshire was in the West of England last time I checked. 

All successful tech companies outsource or manufacture in Asia. Why are you picking on a British brand? You sound proudly unpatriotic. Guess that's your choice.

You probably also choose to carry an iPhone despite Apple's tax dodges and use of Chinese sweat shops. 

Who's the hypocrite now?

[HairyOb1]

4 hours ago, ExiledMatty said:

1.  You know nothing about economics or business.

2.  Wiltshire was in the West of England last time I checked. 

3.  All successful tech companies outsource or manufacture in Asia. Why are you picking on a British brand? You sound proudly unpatriotic. Guess that's your choice.

4.  You probably also choose to carry an iPhone despite Apple's tax dodges and use of Chinese sweat shops. 

5.  Who's the hypocrite now?

1.  I know, despite running a successful IT company since 2002.

2.  I am not too sure I said it wasn't.  Are you angry about something Matty?

3.  I am not 'picking' on a British brand, I am picking on one man who has skin in the game and is using Brexit as a nefarious means to justify his practices and present himself to the people as a man of the country. He moved production and thousands of jobs to Malaysia, in order to make his absurdly expensive products cheaper, through the use of cheaper labour and slacker working and safety practices and is somehow patriotic?  I am proudly European but belief faux English patriotism has got us into this mess in the first place.

4.  Well as none are manufactured here, it would be hard to buy one from here, and given my company develops mobile applications, it's pretty tough to test on them without them, so yes, I do, we own quite a few variety of phones from iOS, android to even Windows, although they're going out of development now, and are simply there for support purposes.  Or do you expect me to walk around with a cans and some long string?

5.  Not me.

You're the type of person whom I generally avoid, one who's proud to be English, despite not knowing anything about why you're proud, but then when delving into the reasons behind the patriotism, one finds they're simply profoundly right wing.

[Unexpected]

8 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

  - just how uniformed the audience was, almost all were parroting Daily Mail/Express views and completely ignorant of the practicalities of leaving.

 

 

 

         

I think that focusing on the practicalities of leaving isn't helping the remain case. Saying that it is difficult to leave therefore it's best to stay will make most leavers (and some remainers who don't like the feeling of being trapped) all the more determined to get out. Weak minded people will stay in a situation because it's hard to get out of so this argument that we are weak therefore we should stay will not work on most people. It's human nature to be defiant to such arguments.

[ExiledMatty]

17 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

1.  I know, despite running a successful IT company since 2002.

2.  I am not too sure I said it wasn't.  Are you angry about something Matty?

3.  I am not 'picking' on a British brand, I am picking on one man who has skin in the game and is using Brexit as a nefarious means to justify his practices and present himself to the people as a man of the country. He moved production and thousands of jobs to Malaysia, in order to make his absurdly expensive products cheaper, through the use of cheaper labour and slacker working and safety practices and is somehow patriotic?  I am proudly European but belief faux English patriotism has got us into this mess in the first place.

4.  Well as none are manufactured here, it would be hard to buy one from here, and given my company develops mobile applications, it's pretty tough to test on them without them, so yes, I do, we own quite a few variety of phones from iOS, android to even Windows, although they're going out of development now, and are simply there for support purposes.  Or do you expect me to walk around with a cans and some long string?

5.  Not me.

You're the type of person whom I generally avoid, one who's proud to be English, despite not knowing anything about why you're proud, but then when delving into the reasons behind the patriotism, one finds they're simply profoundly right wing.

Proud to be British yes. Proud to be English at certain times too e.g at the 2003 RWC final in Sydney. There is nothing wrong with being proud of where you come. Most of the world's population are proud of their nationality. Do you have a problem with them too or just the English?

You probably would hate me though. I spend as little as possible in the UK economy, despite earning my income from there. I've made a packet from the fall of the £ as I am hedged in other currencies. I am hoping for a hard Brexit so the economy crashes big time and I can profit more, and maybe buy a nice house outright when house prices collapse and people lose their homes (the idiots who took out massive mortgages and deserve nothing less).

Hopefully such a crash will also get rid of needless public sector jobs and these freeloaders will have to find meaningful work. Shouldn't be an issue as the likes of Pret and Costa Coffee will be short staffed once the tax credit milkers have gone back to Poznan.

I have complete control over my life without government meddling and can choose where I live (currently Australia). 

Yep, you probably hate me

[HairyOb1]

9 minutes ago, ExiledMatty said:

1.  Proud to be British yes. Proud to be English at certain times too e.g at the 2003 RWC final in Sydney. There is nothing wrong with being proud of where you come. Most of the world's population are proud of their nationality. Do you have a problem with them too or just the English?

2.  You probably would hate me though. I spend as little as possible in the UK economy, despite earning my income from there. I've made a packet from the fall of the £ as I am hedged in other currencies. I am hoping for a hard Brexit so the economy crashes big time and I can profit more, and maybe buy a nice house outright when house prices collapse and people lose their homes (the idiots who took out massive mortgages and deserve nothing less).

3.  Hopefully such a crash will also get rid of needless public sector jobs and these freeloaders will have to find meaningful work. Shouldn't be an issue as the likes of Pret and Costa Coffee will be short staffed once the tax credit milkers have gone back to Poznan.

4.  I have complete control over my life without government meddling and can choose where I live (currently Australia). 

Yep, you probably hate me

1.  I don't have a problem with it, I have a problem with nationalism, and sorry, but it slips one way too far for some.  I feel you're one of them.

2.  This simply makes you sound like a bit of a knob.  I can see why you like Dyson so much, as it appears you're cut from the same cloth. 

3.  ...and a nationalist.

4.  Australia probably one of the worst nanny states there are (I lived there for nearly 4 years and it's got worse).  You may think you have complete control over your life, but you don't, very few do.

I don't hate you, I don't know you.  If anything, I pity you, wouldn't want to be you, but we're different I guess.

I did well through property and hard work.  I do like the line you hedged and did well through sterling collapsing 'despite earning my income from there' as that would be a neat trick