Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Unexpected]

7 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

So we agree the electorate were asked a question they were not equipped to answer.

 

No we do not agree on this. The electorate were very well equipped to answer the question (helped by politicians who under estimated them). They are just not equipped to know the in's and out's of how it will be done.

[GrizzlyDave]

2 minutes ago, Unexpected said:

No we do not agree on this. The electorate were very well equipped to answer the question (helped by politicians who under estimated them). They are just not equipped to know the in's and out's of how it will be done.

Nonsense - only smart well educated people should be allowed to vote.

Fvck the proles.

[Confusion of VIs]

1 hour ago, Unexpected said:

No we do not agree on this. The electorate were very well equipped to answer the question (helped by politicians who under estimated them). They are just not equipped to know the in's and out's of how it will be done.

Cannot understand the pros and cons of the two options but well equipped to answer the question - how does that work?

 

[Confusion of VIs]

1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Nonsense - only smart well educated people should be allowed to vote.

Fvck the proles.

No, just smart well educated people who are paid to do the job. I believe they are called Members of Parliament.

A major reason for having a representative democracy is to save the proles from themselves.

   

[Unexpected]

3 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Cannot understand the pros and cons of the two options but well equipped to answer the question - how does that work?

 

I am saying they understand the pros and cons of the two options and they are equipped to answer the question. They do not however know how to implement Brexit.

That is the job of politicians and civil servants and if they do not want to do the job then they can go and work somewhere else. Same as what my boss would say to me.

Similarly, you are equipped to decide if you want to buy a new car. You are not equipped to design and build that car yourself though. You pay someone else to do that and you trust them to do it properly.

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

I tend to agree.

May - remainer

Hammond - remainer

Carney - remainer

It will be a remainer stitch up.

so we are on the life boat but treated like stowage class.

but patience, because the ship will go down and we will be safer in our little boat.

 

I don't think it's a stitch-up GD. I think the whole thing wreaks of 100% incompetence. The greed and self-interest now has to be inocullated. Going to be interesting (in Chinese terms).

A tiny boat with a lot of people and no sight of land for years usually leads to cannibalism, not safety.

 

[Unexpected]

7 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

No, just smart well educated people who are paid to do the job. I believe they are called Members of Parliament.

A major reason for having a representative democracy is to save the proles from themselves.

   

Or to save the wealthy elites and the politicians from the proles.

[Unexpected]

Just now, jonb2 said:

A tiny boat with a lot of people and no sight of land for years usually leads to cannibalism, not safety.

 

But on the plus side we can start on the politicians then move onto the wealthy and after that the liberal left.

[GrizzlyDave]

20 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

No, just smart well educated people who are paid to do the job. I believe they are called Members of Parliament.

A major reason for having a representative democracy is to save the proles from themselves.

   

Those clever MPs voted 6-1 to give the British people a referendum on leaving the EU.

[GrizzlyDave]

12 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I don't think it's a stitch-up GD. I think the whole thing wreaks of 100% incompetence. The greed and self-interest now has to be inocullated. Going to be interesting (in Chinese terms).

A tiny boat with a lot of people and no sight of land for years usually leads to cannibalism, not safety.

 

Nonsense - unlimited population and the ship will still float...

[jonb2]

16 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

Thanks, Jon - the rest of the linked presentation is worth perusing too.

As mentioned upthread, the standard of the Elefantenrunde at the end of the German election would be my preferred standard for UK politics:

UK Party politics encourages division with the intent of furthering the party by deriding personalities, policies and events. e.g. Grenfell Tower. Usually, the opposing parties are the targets but the blue and red camps have/are using it internally. 

That said, would the UK public prefer the above standards of professionalism or the name-calling, dog whistle taunting, mis-directing performances served up daily by the MSM? Biff-bam (Dr North's term) media coverage is exemplified in this article:

http://eureferendum.com/results.aspx?keyword=biff

I think the EU elite patently have their agenda, but imagine if the European Parliament actually had the power to call for national referenda to seek the citizens' vision for the future of the EU? 

I think Brexiters would be positive about EU reform - just depends on how it's packaged...

 

I don't hold that hope Sheeple. I watched Question Time last night and this Channel 4 leavers thing here. You can almost hold the vitriol as a real thing. It goes way deeper than the EU - it's just the target au jour. Woe betide the leaders when Brexit has happened and things are even worse for years. Falling another rung down the ladder.

The politicians have unleashed a very dangerous beast here. Like in the US too. I have never sensed such anger - even from the 70s - crossing over from BNP and skinheads. Plus the industrial strife. Maybe because people subconsciously know they are permanently fecked and there's nothing anybody can do (or will).

When I look across the channel, like the video you posted - you're right, I see many better intentions (still flawed) in politics than in Anglo-Saxon land. I do not include Juncker et al in this assessment.

Really it's the loss of a sense of purpose, belonging and fractured community at the heart of it. It won't stop, despite the optimists predictions.

 

[GrizzlyDave]

2 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I don't hold that hope Sheeple. I watched Question Time last night and this Channel 4 leavers thing here. You can almost hold the vitriol as a real thing. It goes way deeper than the EU - it's just the target au jour. Woe betide the leaders when Brexit has happened and things are even worse for years. Falling another rung down the ladder.

The politicians have unleashed a very dangerous beast here. Like in the US too. I have never sensed such anger - even from the 70s - crossing over from BNP and skinheads. Plus the industrial strife. Maybe because people subconsciously know they are permanently fecked and there's nothing anybody can do (or will).

When I look across the channel, like the video you posted - you're right, I see many better intentions (still flawed) in politics than in Anglo-Saxon land. I do not include Juncker et al in this assessment.

Really it's the loss of a sense of purpose, belonging and fractured community at the heart of it. It won't stop, despite the optimists predictions.

 

Yes, the rise of populism has many route causes, and brexit will not address even half the issues.

But there were two choices for the populist; more of the same (actually with Junker SoU frosting on top) or try something else.

Brexit provides an opportunity to build something better, once the foundations have been shaken.

 

[Confusion of VIs]

39 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Those clever MPs voted 6-1 to give the British people a referendum on leaving the EU.

An advisory vote.

 

[HairyOb1]

1 hour ago, Unexpected said:

But on the plus side we can start on the politicians then move onto the wealthy and after that the liberal left.

If they don't start on the kippers first, making sure, moving forward, they clean the gene pool up you see, for future generations...

[Sheeple Splinter]

5 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I cannot recall Corbyn's approach being discussed, and a quick rescan didn't find it. 

2. but almost no one prepared to accept a realistic timescale or cost. I really cannot see the Conservatives winning the next election, they are going to be blamed by both sides when the mismatch between expectations and reality is revealed.     

 

1. 44:10. Tsk... what is it about civil servants and quick?  

2. Because there isn't one...yet... that's what I find so frustrating about Flexcit being literally buried by the politicos and MSM. 

        Do you think the blues will last that long?

[Sheeple Splinter]

5 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

You could do a bit of your own research, and assess how credible the big ticket claims are.

eg Exit bill claims of between 0 and 100bn - a quick look the items in it and its easy to  see that it will be at least 35bn but no more than 50bn

Transition claims of 0 to 20 years - Civil Service thinks it will require at least 10 years, they might have over egged it but its not going to be done in 2 years. Say 5 years.

Replacing EU trade deals - almost all significant trade deals take 10-15 years to negotiate and implement, why would you believe anyone saying they can be done almost over night.

Sovereignty - you could think about and educate yourselves about what sovereignty means in the modern world. How will we do deep trade deals without being prepared to share sovereignty.  Look at the US Australia deal for an example of this - is that better worse than what we currently have

Immigration - All parties are committed to continuing high levels of immigration, what difference will Brexit really make, will ending FoM mean opening up the UK to easier immigration from the rest of the world, is that really what you want 

You might  say much of this is beyond the average voters level of knowledge/interest but that' s just an argument for not putting complex questions to a referendum. 

 

 

1. Brexit catalyst again ... Juncker knows how to shorten gestation period:

Quote

Juncker proposes fast-tracking EU trade deals

Commission chief wants to avoid another Walloon crisis by cutting out national and regional parliaments.

http://www.politico.eu/article/juncker-proposes-fast-tracking-eu-trade-deals/

[Sheeple Splinter]

1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

No, just smart well educated people who are paid to do the job. I believe they are called Members of Parliament.

A major reason for having a representative democracy is to save the proles from themselves.

   

Ballooning National debt, housing crisis etc., says the proles need a different form of democracy.

[GrizzlyDave]

2 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

An advisory vote.

 

Not very clever were they?!? I mean the whole architecture of the ref was a disaster.

Edited September 29, 2017 by GrizzlyDave

[rollover]

1 hour ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

1. Brexit catalyst again ... Juncker knows how to shorten gestation period:

http://www.politico.eu/article/juncker-proposes-fast-tracking-eu-trade-deals/

He is so unpredictable.

 

Quote

 

Jean-Claude Juncker: UK will need a miracle for trade talks to start soon

His comment came as Theresa May went into private talks with Angela Merkel with a plea for the EU to  “reciprocate” the warmth of her recent speech in Florence. Lithuanian president Dalia Grybauskaite said both sides must admit that negotiations “are out of schedule”. EU officials have growing expectations that Mrs May will make further concessions after the  Conservative conference, just ahead of an EU summit on October 19.  

These could include spelling out what cash “obligations” she is willing to pay in an exit deal. She is also under pressure to concede that the European Court of Justice will rule on the rights of EU citizens here.

Mrs May is beefing up a Brexit unit at No 10, with 20 civil servants. ES

 

 

[cock-eyed octopus]

4 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

No, just smart well educated people who are paid to do the job. I believe they are called Members of Parliament.

A major reason for having a representative democracy is to save the proles from themselves.

   

Excellent. Why bother with a democracy at all then? I'm sure we'd all be much better off if a small, intelligent elite decided who should be our representative MPs.

I thought of this for some reason

 

 

Edited September 29, 2017 by cock-eyed octopus
forgot the https//

[rollover]

 

Quote

 

Leave.EU Co-founder says Jeremy Corbyn will be the next PM – if Theresa May stays on

The co-founder of the Leave.eu campaign Richard Tice just delivered a shocking vote of no confidence in Prime Minister Theresa May on BBC Question Time.

Watch the stunned look on the face of Karen Bradley, the Secretary of State for Culture and Media as the property entrepreneur and prominent Brexiteer delivered his damning verdict.

Question Time host David Dimbleby asked the Brexit campaign chief: “do you think Theresa May is going to finish her full term and would you like her to fight the next general election?”

The Tory MP for Staffordshire Moorlands’ looked dumbfounded as the co-chair of Leave Means Leave and CEO of the Leave.eu campaign Richard Tice answered: “I’m afraid to say but if she does complete the next term, Jeremy Corbyn will be the next Prime Minister.” thelondoneconomic

 

Brexit for the many, not just the few! 

Edited September 29, 2017 by rollover

[GrizzlyDave]

Catalonia is looking spicy!

I think they might vote out.

Edited September 29, 2017 by GrizzlyDave

[Sheeple Splinter]

8 hours ago, jonb2 said:

I don't hold that hope Sheeple. I watched Question Time last night and this Channel 4 leavers thing here. You can almost hold the vitriol as a real thing. It goes way deeper than the EU - it's just the target au jour. Woe betide the leaders when Brexit has happened and things are even worse for years. Falling another rung down the ladder.

The politicians have unleashed a very dangerous beast here. Like in the US too. I have never sensed such anger - even from the 70s - crossing over from BNP and skinheads. Plus the industrial strife. Maybe because people subconsciously know they are permanently fecked and there's nothing anybody can do (or will).

When I look across the channel, like the video you posted - you're right, I see many better intentions (still flawed) in politics than in Anglo-Saxon land. I do not include Juncker et al in this assessment.

Really it's the loss of a sense of purpose, belonging and fractured community at the heart of it. It won't stop, despite the optimists predictions.

 

I watched both too and, as CoVI said, whilst there was plenty of evidence of the legacy of campaign/MSM misdirection there were calls for unity, transparency and direction. The political drift has left a gaping opportunity for a new party; Democrat Party perhaps?

Brexit, amongst many other issues, is a perfect scapegoat to deflect attention away from the clusterfeck the politicians, or to be precise, TPTB, have created globally. Divide and conquer the proles by pitting factions against each other.  

"Really it's the loss of a sense of purpose, belonging and fractured community at the heart of it. It won't stop, despite the optimists predictions."

It won't stop for as long as citizens accept being victims.

[Sheeple Splinter]

5 hours ago, rollover said:

7 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

1. Brexit catalyst again ... Juncker knows how to shorten gestation period:

http://www.politico.eu/article/juncker-proposes-fast-tracking-eu-trade-deals/

He is so unpredictable.

Quote

 

Jean-Claude Juncker: UK will need a miracle for trade talks to start soon

His comment came as Theresa May went into private talks with Angela Merkel with a plea for the EU to  “reciprocate” the warmth of her recent speech in Florence. Lithuanian president Dalia Grybauskaite said both sides must admit that negotiations “are out of schedule”. EU officials have growing expectations that Mrs May will make further concessions after the  Conservative conference, just ahead of an EU summit on October 19.  

These could include spelling out what cash “obligations” she is willing to pay in an exit deal. She is also under pressure to concede that the European Court of Justice will rule on the rights of EU citizens here.

Mrs May is beefing up a Brexit unit at No 10, with 20 civil servants. ES

Not at all; the EU have the whip hand. May agreeing to all of the EU's demands is hardly a miracle.

[ExiledMatty]

17 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

o you don't have to respect their rules?  Oh wow, tell me your secret, as when I was there, I had to adhere to all of their nanny state rules...

You're coming across as Farage like, and I know where I'd rather be sat in that comparison.

Of course I abide by the rules but you cannot compare living somewhere to just being a tourist there. Living here would mean being forced to vote and other nanny state controls. That's one reason why I would not choose to stay here.

Are you really so dumb that you cannot understand that?

Any extreme of the political spectrum is bad. The views you express here suggests you are no better than the far right.