Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Confusion of VIs]

45 minutes ago, kzb said:

To summarise, Matthew Parris spells out one of the well known theories that many of us have thought of for ourselves.  That is, the transition period will never actually end:  we, in cahoots with the EU, keep spinning it out and eventually we will end up re-joining the EU.

But he does make that same error that I've pointed out before.  The assumption that people do not change as they get older.  They think all they have to do is wait until the old Brexiters die off.  This is a mistaken assumption.

Maybe, although there is no concrete evidence for that.  

if Brexit is to be killed of it would have to be via a second referendum held in light of the final exit deal. If Labour calls this it will include 16-18yr olds which will greatly benefit the  Remain side. In addition, I would expect more younger voters  (having now learnt not to trust their future to the oldies) to make the effort and turn out to vote. 

 

 

 

 

   

[kzb]

8 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Maybe, although there is no concrete evidence for that.  

if Brexit is to be killed of it would have to be via a second referendum held in light of the final exit deal. If Labour calls this it will include 16-18yr olds which will greatly benefit the  Remain side. In addition, I would expect more younger voters  (having now learnt not to trust their future to the oldies) to make the effort and turn out to vote. 

It's funny how everyone under 18 is now a child.  Not long ago, teenagers were young people and calling them children was insulting.  But nevertheless all under 18's are children in BBC world (and according to UN definition).

Votes at 16 means children are allowed to vote (16 year olds are children according to UN definition).  That being the case, why not make the voting age 10? Or 5?  Let's go for it.

[HairyOb1]

5 minutes ago, kzb said:

It's funny how everyone under 18 is now a child.  Not long ago, teenagers were young people and calling them children was insulting.  But nevertheless all under 18's are children in BBC world (and according to UN definition).

Votes at 16 means children are allowed to vote (16 year olds are children according to UN definition).  That being the case, why not make the voting age 10? Or 5?  Let's go for it.

If you can work, full time, you're not a child.  If you can have kids, live on your own, get married, you're not a kid.  Lets not change the goalposts to suit the narrative.

[GrizzlyDave]

13 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

I Disagree, they are long term partners and with a federal EU, it makes sense to keep work there.  I bank on about equivalence all the time.  There is a whole world of difference in employing  workforce in Poland and one in Malaysia.  Standards too.

Do you think the UK has expanded or shrunk as part of the EU?

I'd rather be in work, than unemployed anywhere, so it's moot; Dyson has shipped his factories out of the EU, so no one in the EU benefits, apart from him.  His tax base will be there, he will benefit from much lower wages and workforce welfare than in the EU.  You simply cannot connect the EU and India, Malaysia or elsewhere in that neck of the woods.  His prices would be more, he would have to pay more to his workforce and ensure they had a safer environment.  Plus adhere to standards he will not be out there.  You cannot seriously compare the two.

It seems dealing up as part of a huge market would be better than at the bottom keeping out of the way of the big boys.  Look to 2003 and steel to see how we'll fare in a global market...

Jobs aren’t just shipping out of the Uk, look at Italy, Spain, France - there is a trend in globalisation to drive the cost base down by moving manufacturing to the cheapest supplier country, whilst suppressing wages and conditions in your country. Surely you agree that this is happening in the UK?

Actually I think a big part of Dyson’s manufacturing move to Asia is that they now are phenomenally good at making quality. Look at South Korea.

lets reflect on Japan, quality products, post industrialised. Now in economic malaise. What does Japan do to maintain its economy in a globalised cost cutting world?

Steel’s a good one. There is a mark up for high quality steel so you can work on that principal and not race to the bottom. Or you can stop trying tocompete in producing cheap steel (with cheap wages-welfare) and just buy the raw materials and build the value in by turning it into something high value. Like knives. Incidentally the sabatier knives I bought recently were made in China!

[HairyOb1]

1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Jobs aren’t just shipping out of the Uk, look at Italy, Spain, France - there is a trend in globalisation to drive the cost base down by moving manufacturing to the cheapest supplier country, whilst suppressing wages and conditions in your country. Surely you agree that this is happening in the UK?

Actually I think a big part of Dyson’s manufacturing move to Asia is that they now are phenomenally good at making quality. Look at South Korea.

lets reflect on Japan, quality products, post industrialised. Now in economic malaise. What does Japan do to maintain its economy in a globalised cost cutting world?

Steel’s a good one. There is a mark up for high quality steel so you can work on that principal and not race to the bottom. Or you can stop trying tocompete in producing cheap steel (with cheap wages-welfare) and just buy the raw materials and build the value in by turning it into something high value. Like knives. Incidentally the sabatier knives I bought recently were made in China!

Lets not kid ourselves that Dyson went to Malaysia to increase the quality of his products...

[kzb]

4 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

If you can work, full time, you're not a child.  If you can have kids, live on your own, get married, you're not a kid.  Lets not change the goalposts to suit the narrative.

Only a very few nations allow voting for under 18's.  North Korea is one (17).  In Japan it is 20.

I don't know how you can say change the goalposts with a straight face.  They are going to lower the voting age, possibly as a one-off for the referendum, specifically to get the result they want !

[GrizzlyDave]

4 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Lets not kid ourselves that Dyson went to Malaysia to increase the quality of his products...

Clearly Malaysia can make quality at a good price.

Just like China and Apple.

Did you know BMW has a Chennai plant!

this is the future.

Edited September 28, 2017 by GrizzlyDave

[HairyOb1]

1 minute ago, kzb said:

Only a very few nations allow voting for under 18's.  North Korea is one (17).  In Japan it is 20.

I don't know how you can say change the goalposts with a straight face.  They are going to lower the voting age, possibly as a one-off for the referendum, specifically to get the result they want !

They wanted to change the age before the last referendum, and it wasn't agreed.  I wonder why that was.

I say it with a straight face, as they aren't kids.  I wasn't, nor will my children be.  The moment you can command control of your own life, you're not a child.  In this country, that's 16.  If you're paying tax, or taking loans to or from a government, then I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed a say in what happens.

This transcends the argument.

1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Clearly Malaysia can make quality at a good price.

Just like China and Apple.

As I said: don't for one moment think he went there as the quality is better.  Ever driven a proton?

[GrizzlyDave]

4 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

They wanted to change the age before the last referendum, and it wasn't agreed.  I wonder why that was.

I say it with a straight face, as they aren't kids.  I wasn't, nor will my children be.  The moment you can command control of your own life, you're not a child.  In this country, that's 16.  If you're paying tax, or taking loans to or from a government, then I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed a say in what happens.

This transcends the argument.

As I said: don't for one moment think he went there as the quality is better.  Ever driven a proton?

The quality can be what ever you want it to be. If you want the highest quality possible - you can get that. But even the best quality will be cheaper than manufacturing in the West.

Edited September 28, 2017 by GrizzlyDave

[henchard]

5 hours ago, Futuroid said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-farming-subsidies-billionaires-high-uk-rich-list-recipients-brexit-james-dyson-earl-rosebery-cap-a7815871.html

"Sir James Dyson's farming business was the biggest private recipient of EU basic payments in the UK in 2016, receiving £1.6 million,"

What a guy <swoon>.

And the reason why Dyson has been buying up all that farmland? Because he can pass his money on to his children free of Inheritance tax.

That's right buy some land, nominally become a farmer and you can avoid another pesky tax (nor do you have to pay business rates on it like other businesses).

[jonb2]

13 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

lets reflect on Japan, quality products, post industrialised. Now in economic malaise. What does Japan do to maintain its economy in a globalised cost cutting world?

I think it transfers the support of its industry to the people GD.

 

[HairyOb1]

7 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

The quality can be what ever you want it to be. If you want the highest quality possible - you can get that. But even the best quality will be cheaper than manufacturing in the West.

...and we'd disagree about that.  As I said, he didn't put his factory in Malaysia for its engineering experience, nor its quality.

[GrizzlyDave]

2 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I think it transfers the support of its industry to the people GD.

 

Exactly. It’s in the do doo because it can’t compete. So it’s economic model must change. You either cut costs (welfare, wages), increase debt, or change the fundamentals.

[jonb2]

5 minutes ago, henchard said:

And the reason why Dyson has been buying up all that farmland? Because he can pass his money on to his children free of Inheritance tax.

That's right buy some land, nominally become a farmer and you can avoid another pesky tax (nor do you have to pay business rates on it like other businesses).

I think the point is that it's not types like James Dyson that are going to get us out of the sh*t after Brexit. It's him first, then his family, then his ego.

[GrizzlyDave]

8 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

...and we'd disagree about that.  As I said, he didn't put his factory in Malaysia for its engineering experience, nor its quality.

Fine, disagree. There are a thousand businesses like Dyson doing this across the West.

Do you think Bosch washing machines made in Turkey are as good as the ones made in Germany? I guarantee that they are cheaper to produce...

How do you feel about Turkey joining the EU BTW?

Edited September 28, 2017 by GrizzlyDave

[jonb2]

1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Exactly. It’s in the do doo because it can’t compete. So it’s economic model must change. You either cut costs (welfare, wages), increase debt, or change the fundamentals.

This is the main problem. The world is very sick. Consumerism, Corporatism and the financialisation of anything that moves.

The last one is the most damaging as virtually everything is now geared to a usury grab. So a real product is a secondary device to making more and more money from a transaction. Japanese cameras can only attract HP and are a declining market.

[HairyOb1]

16 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Clearly Malaysia can make quality at a good price.

Just like China and Apple.

Did you know BMW has a Chennai plant!

this is the future.

Yes, and they have one in China too, as do Mercedes, and VW, etc, etc.

For the local market - They even produce models we don't have too.  They don't get shipped here though...

1 minute ago, jonb2 said:

I think the point is that it's not types like James Dyson that are going to get us out of the sh*t after Brexit. It's him first, then his family, then his ego.

Precisely.

[HairyOb1]

13 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Fine, disagree. There are a thousand businesses like Dyson doing this across the West.

Do you think Bosch washing machines made in Turkey are as good as the ones made in Germany? I guarantee that they are cheaper to produce...

How do you feel about Turkey joining the EU BTW?

Dave, I think you miss my point.  It's all about Dyson stinking on about Brexit, for his own nefarious means,whilst trying to present himself as a man of England.  He isn't, it's like BoJo: it is all about him.

Again, Germany and Turkey have links from before the great war.  There are a lot of things about Turkey that are very germanic.  Travelling through there and Syria in 92, I got by, by speaking German out in the sticks.

I'd get the Balkans in first and sort that out.  I'd not be happy with Turkey joining due to it's political situation.  Turkeys actually doing ok, as it happens.  

[GrizzlyDave]

1 minute ago, HairyOb1 said:

Yes, and they have one in China too, as do Mercedes, and VW, etc, etc.

For the local market - They even produce models we don't have too.  They don't get shipped here though...

...yet

VW makes the mk6 Jetta in Mexico, China, India, Brazil, South Africa, Russia, and Malaysia.

I didn’t see Germany or any other EU country on the list where it is manufactured.

It’s sucks, globalisation. But this is the reality mate.

[Option5]

4 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Yes, and they have one in China too, as do Mercedes, and VW, etc, etc.

For the local market - They even produce models we don't have too.  They don't get shipped here though...

Precisely.

Old M class Mercedes were nearly all built in Alabama,  Porsche Boxter's were also assembled in Finland, Z3 BMWs were all built in South Carolina, Mitsubishi Charisma's (now that's a name that didn't suit the car) at Nedcar in Holland alongside Volvo V40's.

The list is endless, car manufacturing is truly global.

[GrizzlyDave]

6 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Dave, I think you miss my point.  It's all about Dyson stinking on about Brexit, for his own nefarious means,whilst trying to present himself as a man of England.  He isn't, it's like BoJo: it is all about him.

Again, Germany and Turkey have links from before the great war.  There are a lot of things about Turkey that are very germanic.  Travelling through there and Syria in 92, I got by, by speaking German out in the sticks.

I'd get the Balkans in first and sort that out.  I'd not be happy with Turkey joining due to it's political situation.  Turkeys actually doing ok, as it happens.  

Dyson has skin in the game and playing his cards to benefit him. So what! I personally think he is a bit of a tit, but he is the closest thing to Steve Jobs this country has; so personally I think we should listen to him.

yeah Turkey is too hot to get into the EU, and the size of the population would really destabilise the existing EU Parliament.

[HairyOb1]

4 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

...yet

VW makes the mk6 Jetta in Mexico, China, India, Brazil, South Africa, Russia, and Malaysia.

I didn’t see Germany or any other EU country on the list where it is manufactured.

It’s sucks, globalisation. But this is the reality mate.

Would that be the Jetta, Mk6, that was designed in Mexico?  One that has only sold 1000 models?

It's an important car for emerging markets and the states.  Not here.  Hence why it's not built in Germany, as it's not even that relevant there either...

Pick a mainstream European variant and we'll have a discussion about ti Dave.

 

[HairyOb1]

13 minutes ago, Option5 said:

Old M class Mercedes were nearly all built in Alabama,  Porsche Boxter's were also assembled in Finland, Z3 BMWs were all built in South Carolina, Mitsubishi Charisma's (now that's a name that didn't suit the car) at Nedcar in Holland alongside Volvo V40's.

The list is endless, car manufacturing is truly global.

They had to have manufacturing units in the states in order to be able to sell there, according to trade laws.  Holland and Finland are in the EU.  Lets also remember Holland used to own DAF so had existing factories in Holland.

[henchard]

10 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

 but he is the closest thing to Steve Jobs this country has;

Really?

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/qbay7m/dyson-sucks-harder-than-electrolux

[GrizzlyDave]

5 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Would that be the Jetta, Mk6, that was designed in Mexico?  One that has only sold 1000 models?

It's an important car for emerging markets and the states.  Not here.  Hence why it's not built in Germany, as it's not even that relevant there either...

Pick a mainstream European variant and we'll have a discussion about ti Dave.

 

Germany is not immune from globalisation and outsourcing. The numbers may be small now; but it’s clear the way the tide is going.

The VW Fox was Made in South America and sold in Europe. No idea how many sold.

I’m sure there are other examples.