Btl Scum Regrouping And On The Offensive. -- Merged

[Mossie]

26 minutes ago, jiltedjen said:

really looking forward to January. When the bills start arriving on door-steps we should have a Schadenfreude party here on HPC.

i would pay to see a documentary on these bust BTL's moving on with their lives. I really do hope they end up renting from selfish crap armature landlords themselves. 

Can't deny I look forward to the day, but I have to resist the Schadenfreude, for it's not good for me as a person, I don't think. 

Although I am in no way immune, and partly want it.  And I am certainly not going to allow some here to defend the BTLers as they have begun to do so, with intellectually dishonest 'BTL is just a mainstream investment' and 'they just didn't know what they were doing' type arguments.  Not that soft at all.   With challenge it on forum.

And that's IF it ever happens (HPC/BTLers exiting market in big numbers).  I just want and need the BTLers out of the market by their hundreds of thousands, and selling homes to younger people at much lower prices.

And I want them (the BTLers) just to learn a lesson about their greed, reflect on themselves as a person - but I doubt they will.  People usually find a scapegoat to blame, rather than accept.  Just need them gone.  Ideally to become better people.  

Yet my main focus is housing being bought by families, at prices that reflect their incomes - to give them homes and security and type of home life others on the BTL side want for themselves as homeowners, but seek to deny others.

o/t There's an activist group in Russia, in a few of its cities, against bad-parking and against those who drive on the cities pavements -  and I have learned quite a lot from them, or been reminded about what I already knew, and seeing it pure in other people.  They were mentioned in an Offtopic thread once.  IMO They are seriously deep, responsible, caring people.   The Universal.   

I know they get training, and any main person to speak to a driver has gone through a process of remaining calm.  They have to observe the main leaders for some time, before being allowed to ever approach an individual double-parked in traffic causing big tailbacks, driving on pavement and putting pedestrians (and children - adults with strollers) at risk.  I am totally with their approach, and I see them as honest really good people, choosing their cause and trying to improve general situation for a positive.  

Although they do, on occasion, have to use force when attacked.  Seen everything pulled out of them from hammers, to pistols, to AK47s, to grenades - and so many people (drivers) trying to intimidate them.   All because driver refuses to be reasonable (and not drive on a pavement full of people).   A few of them have much higher strength levels than their attackers expect.  Many of the people they encounter are just full of ego, and seeing it all their own selfish way.

Quote

 

"Khamstvo" is rudeness, insolence, impudence, put together but at the same time multiplied by impunity.

The majority of bad-parkers we encounter (in our videos) know they they violate the law, doing harm to the people around them.

They always have an opportunity to stop doing this but their 'khamstvo" (ego) stops them from reasonable human behaviour.

This ego, this inner sense of superiority over others multiplied by arrogance and impunity is the main opponent of our movement.

Fight the "khamstvo" (arrogance/ego/rudeness) in yourself, and in others.

 

Many BTLers need to learn.

[Guest]

On 07/07/2018 at 11:37, Lavalas said:

She’s utterly shameless but thankfully the world doesn’t have to suffer as much of her tripe these days (not that anyone was listening really). There’s a couple of people agreeing in the comments but it’s just Jamie Fraser and the usual 118 lot. The rest see straight through it and that was before a link was even posted here.

A pathetic waste of time just like the rest of their campaign.

I am fascinated listening about this woman, I have never been on 118 but am tempted just to read her stuff. Can anyone be so over emotive and self absorbed as this woman, there is no way on earth that she is in a relationship, surely?

We can all feel sorry for ourselves at times, I do, but it takes me minutes to realise I am not even close to suffering like some people are in this world and come around. I take it that this woman has properties, for that alone she should be grateful, just one would do me. Maybe this BTL speculative nightmare will end one day, but not in her favour, she is going to be shocked to find that hardly anyone gives a flying f*** about her when she ends up having lost it all.

[Bland Unsight]

Tuesday 3 July, Vanessa over at Poverty Tribes starts a new thread about "The future of Buy to Let"

Five days later, the first response is posted...

Vanessa's cri de coeur garners a response from resident braniac, all-round sound geezer and master of the single sentence paragraph, Paul 'Good Bloke' Barrett:

Quote

paul_barrett 7 hours ago
Oh OK then

Well if I was considering being a residential LL I simply wouldn't do as I did back in the day.

S24 being the major factor.

I would not consider the company route due to the problems with extracting income.

I would choose a lodger strategy and then FHL.

If neither of these were possible I would not invest in the PRS.

My capital would remain in a savings account.

I might choose to improve my own home with a loft extension and then take on a lodger.

There's still a lot of buy-to-let in the market and persistent low mortgage interest rates mean that a lot of it can wash its face, but the mania is all in the rear view mirror.

[Si1]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Bland said:

 

There's still a lot of buy-to-let in the market and persistent low mortgage interest rates mean that a lot of it can wash its face, but the mania is all in the rear view mirror.

That's not a mania, that's care in the community

 

[spyguy]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Bland said:

Tuesday 3 July, Vanessa over at Poverty Tribes starts a new thread about "The future of Buy to Let"

Five days later, the first response is posted...

Vanessa's cri de coeur garners a response from resident braniac, all-round sound geezer and master of the single sentence paragraph, Paul 'Good Bloke' Barrett:

There's still a lot of buy-to-let in the market and persistent low mortgage interest rates mean that a lot of it can wash its face, but the mania is all in the rear view mirror.

To me, its interesting that he brings up FHL - Furnished Holiday Let.

Or, as my friends who live next to the plague of them in Whitby know them - Fuxxing Horrible leaches.

It appears that the nubmer of people doign FHL in Whitby has doubled over the last 10 years.

Except when I grep the UKGOV business rates DB they show the same number as 10 years ago - its still way too high.

Or .... as I think is most likely, and especially so as there are only 2 banks thatll lend to FHL, and then they wont lend much - thse are all illegal/unregistred private ventures, with some insane indirect debt behind it.

 

 

 

[stop_the_craziness]

Have our friends at Axe The Tennant Tax finally found a friend  at the Daily Mail?

Rents to surge by 15% over next five years after tax squeeze on landlords slashes the number of properties coming on the market

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5948827/Rents-surge-15-five-years-tax-squeeze-landlords.html

 

[Diver Dan]

1 hour ago, stop_the_craziness said:

Have our friends at Axe The Tennant Tax finally found a friend  at the Daily Mail?

Rents to surge by 15% over next five years after tax squeeze on landlords slashes the number of properties coming on the market

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5948827/Rents-surge-15-five-years-tax-squeeze-landlords.html

 

So they're going to see an annual increase of less than 3% for five years. That doesn't seem too bad in the grand scheme of things. I have certainly heard of people having to pay far bigger increases than that.

[Freki]

Can they provide an explanation for the large increase of the past 5 years?

[oatbake]

53 minutes ago, Diver Dan said:

So they're going to see an annual increase of less than 3% for five years. That doesn't seem too bad in the grand scheme of things. I have certainly heard of people having to pay far bigger increases than that.

 It's actually less than that of compounded. Not much, but definitely less. And considering these were made up figures to start with, it really doesn't seem so terrible as a worst-case scenario...

Amazing how many people still don't get that when homes are sold to first time buyers, these first time buyers no longer need to rent... 

Unless these morons are selling their houses to people who want to keep them empty, they're going to have to swallow these tax increases and they know it! 

The demand side for rentals is not as fixed as landlords like to pretend. If rents go too high, people will just move back in with parents, sofa surf etc.

Sure, not everybody can do this, but as long as some people can, this effectively puts a cap on rents. 

Good luck with those rent rises!

[guest_northshore]

2 hours ago, Diver Dan said:

So they're going to see an annual increase of less than 3% for five years. That doesn't seem too bad in the grand scheme of things. I have certainly heard of people having to pay far bigger increases than that.

 

Ignoring that the source is just a sentiment survey, they seem to be extrapolating from a generally falling 3 month rolling average:

https://www.rics.org/uk/knowledge/market-analysis/rics-residential-market-survey/

[oatbake]

4 hours ago, guest_northshore said:

 

Ignoring that the source is just a sentiment survey, they seem to be extrapolating from a generally falling 3 month rolling average:

https://www.rics.org/uk/knowledge/market-analysis/rics-residential-market-survey/

A picture speaks a thousand words. This is a great one to show the parasite 118 / ATTT crowd when they bang on about rents going up...

Hasn't the decline actually started about the same time S24 was announced??

[Ah-so]

9 hours ago, stop_the_craziness said:

Have our friends at Axe The Tennant Tax finally found a friend  at the Daily Mail?

Rents to surge by 15% over next five years after tax squeeze on landlords slashes the number of properties coming on the market

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5948827/Rents-surge-15-five-years-tax-squeeze-landlords.html

 

From the ups and down votes on readers comments, you can really see that the DM is the paper of the landlord classes.

[mrtickle]

3 hours ago, Ah-so said:

From the ups and down votes on readers comments, you can really see that the DM is the paper of the landlord classes.

Indeed. Tough!

Quote

GrumpyGrinch, Taunton, United Kingdom, 2 days ago

The rules don't affect the larger buy to let professionals with more than 11 properties! Just the ones with 1 who took heed of Gov advice and invested for the future for their retirement or children

I must have missed when the government ADVISED people to "invest" in BTL.

and of course the old lie about "for their retirement or children" gets repeated.

 

[Bland Unsight]

36 minutes ago, mrtickle said:

and of course the old lie about "for their retirement or children" gets repeated.

That Mail comment account you've quoted is putting the 'interesting' into 'that's an interesting view':

Quote

The blimp should never have been given permission. This is the capital city of the U.K. during an official visit of the President of America. Allowing the blimp is an utter disgrace on the WORLD STAGE. Khan needs to go. For a starts its a potential danger to the air space where there will be increased air traffic.

(Emphasis added, source)

Not sure  how a 20 ft balloon on 20 ft tethers is going to present a threat to aircraft in Central London.

There's no point trying to get a feel for 'things' from one's social media feed. One's social media feed is so replete with structural biases that once one rolls in one's own interpretational biases there's nothing left with any genuine empirical merit (we read stuff that tells us what we want to hear and we ignore all the bits that challenge us and relish the parts that give succour to the things we already believed).

You either DYOR or you do no research. Scrolling through a diet of the things you wish were true is no substitute for research. DYOR.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Jurassic Bland

[Mossie]

Bailouts, pity, negative consequences, can't all be always lumped onto people who had no part in in other people choosing to make damaging decisions. What we each do matters, and it counts.

I can't help it if some BTL investors believe they were encouraged into BTL by Government!   

I sure can't help it someone's BTL chums decide to buy another property with deposit and BTL mortgage, to rent it out, when there is Generation Rent Forever and very very high prices in many areas.  If it goes wrong for the BTL landlord, it's all on the BTL landlord.  The banks didn't force the BTL landlord to go to a viewing and approach them for a BTL mortgage on it.  Nor were banks responsible for the BTL landlord's vision of giving a free house to their 5 year old in 25 years time.

If it goes wrong, keeping in mind how many times ready about the suffering down the years, you should have chosen something else to do than bet on multiple houses and rentier working families, bet on house prices, and power it all by debt, and tax adjustment risks.

Some things are good and right, some are greedy, harmful and exploitative. 

You have to take a position in life. 

And you have to do your best.   It's also good to plan carefully.  To get expert advice from multiple sources on matters of importance, where you don't have expertise yourself, before any action.   If some BTLer investors do ever take losses, it's all on them.   They would have others be priced-out Generations Rent forever, having chosen to buy up multiple houses and be BTL landlords.

http://www.plastelina.net/game2.html

 

[spyguy]

6 hours ago, Jurassic Bland said:

That Mail comment account you've quoted is putting the 'interesting' into 'that's an interesting view':

(Emphasis added, source)

Not sure  how a 20 ft balloon on 20 ft tethers is going to present a threat to aircraft in Central London.

There's no point trying to get a feel for 'things' from one's social media feed. One's social media feed is so replete with structural biases that once one rolls in one's own interpretational biases there's nothing left with any genuine empirical merit (we read stuff that tells us what we want to hear and we ignore all the bits that challenge us and relish the parts that give succour to the things we already believed).

You either DYOR or you do no research. Scrolling through a diet of the things you wish were true is no substitute for research. DYOR.

OK, lets have a go.

El Prez attracts bunch of Islamic terrorists, who let off bombs, start stabbing, drive a transit over the bridge, hole up in Trafal;gar aquare chopping head of captive - pick your outrage.

In the -panic./chaos/whatnot balloon slips is mooring and starts blowing around.

This would prevent the rapid reaction helicopters/ospreys,  preventing SF deployment.

 

 

 

[jiltedjen]

i can see rents rising short term but not due to leveraged landlords jacking up prices due to now negative cash-flows, but instead from masses of BTL selling up and creating a short term but very real lack of rentals (as places are left empty for sale, and short term removed from the market, so not available for habitation).

so i think leveraged landlords need to think carefully if they think 'oh good i managed to get this house to break-even as locally the rents have gone up' as they will find 6 months later tenants leaving for much cheaper rentals. 

short term is the key here. And of course the better earning tenants will naturally be buying cheap ex BTL places, leaving the remaining tenants as poorer quality. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by jiltedjen

[spyguy]

5 hours ago, Mossie said:

Bailouts, pity, negative consequences, can't all be always lumped onto people who had no part in in other people choosing to make damaging decisions. What we each do matters, and it counts.

I can't help it if some BTL investors believe they were encouraged into BTL by Government!   

I sure can't help it someone's BTL chums decide to buy another property with deposit and BTL mortgage, to rent it out, when there is Generation Rent Forever and very very high prices in many areas.  If it goes wrong for the BTL landlord, it's all on the BTL landlord.  The banks didn't force the BTL landlord to go to a viewing and approach them for a BTL mortgage on it.  Nor were banks responsible for the BTL landlord's vision of giving a free house to their 5 year old in 25 years time.

If it goes wrong, keeping in mind how many times ready about the suffering down the years, you should have chosen something else to do than bet on multiple houses and rentier working families, bet on house prices, and power it all by debt, and tax adjustment risks.

Some things are good and right, some are greedy, harmful and exploitative. 

You have to take a position in life. 

And you have to do your best.   It's also good to plan carefully.  To get expert advice from multiple sources on matters of importance, where you don't have expertise yourself, before any action.   If some BTLer investors do ever take losses, it's all on them.   They would have others be priced-out Generations Rent forever, having chosen to buy up multiple houses and be BTL landlords.

http://www.plastelina.net/game2.html

 

Im not 100% sure who we got where we are - stupidity on behalf of the LL and bank, Gordon Brown magic miracle economic machine/credit boom, newly listed BS, flush with the Master ofthe Universe/Big Swinging Dick, Big Bang in 1986 which unleashed the banks but did not unleash the tax payer back stopping them.

Whatever.

What matters is than from a standing start in 1986, which saw its own, relatively mild properdee based  credit boom 1988-1991, which was allowed to bust and clear up by the last 90s, in a period of ~30 years (86-07) 80% of UK banks  by lending ended up bust or bailed out.

I had my normal; Saturday chat with my Mum. Strangely enough, connected to magical properdee 'invetment' - tea shoppe where a relative works was bought out 12 months ago, only for the canny investor mental innumerate woman to find it was a) losing buckets of cash b) a 60h/w management commitment rather than breezing in on Sunny days to see how its going.

Anyhow, we were talking about all the women who work there marching out - Strike!

I was going thru the names of the women who work there and we got to X - 'Oh I dont know why X works. Shes got 'property' which she rents out. Shes rich' (Bear in mind that X lives about 30 miles away, which is a lot of travvellign for a NMW job).

'Really?', I asked, eyebrows raised

'Oh yes. She a place in <shithole A> and another place in <shithole B>. She most be doing really well, I dont know why she works.

'Oh, she's probably losing money on them both' I replied

'I *dont* think so' replied my Mum.

And that little vignette demonstrates the lunacy, innumeracy and general bewilderment by which the whole IO BTL operates.

 

 

 

 

[spyguy]

5 minutes ago, jiltedjen said:

i can see rents rising short term but not due to leveraged landlords jacking up prices due to now negative cash-flows, but instead from masses of BTL selling up and creating a short term but very real lack of rentals (as places are left empty for sale, and short term removed from the market, so not available for habitation).

so i think leveraged landlords need to think carefully if they think 'oh good i managed to get this house to break-even as locally the rents have gone up' as they will find 6 months later tenants leaving for much cheaper rentals. 

short term is the key here. And of course the better earning tenants will naturally be buying cheap ex BTL places, leaving the remaining tenants as poorer quality. 

LLing has never been about rents rising, or rather th risk is not with low rents.

The risks are voids.

The number of private rents has increased by what - 4x, 5x 10x??? since 2002ish.

Trust me, there's enoguh excess 'invetments' thatll mean the LL is totally screwed.

If UKGOV fiannly pulls its finger out and starts denying benefiot to non UK citizens then you'll see a LL bloodbath.

 

 

[Mossie]

2 hours ago, spyguy said:

Im not 100% sure who we got where we are - stupidity on behalf of the LL and bank, Gordon Brown magic miracle economic machine/credit boom, newly listed BS, flush with the Master ofthe Universe/Big Swinging Dick, Big Bang in 1986 which unleashed the banks but did not unleash the tax payer back stopping them.

Whatever.

What matters is than from a standing start in 1986, which saw its own, relatively mild properdee based  credit boom 1988-1991, which was allowed to bust and clear up by the last 90s, in a period of ~30 years (86-07) 80% of UK banks  by lending ended up bust or bailed out.

I had my normal; Saturday chat with my Mum. Strangely enough, connected to magical properdee 'invetment' - tea shoppe where a relative works was bought out 12 months ago, only for the canny investor mental innumerate woman to find it was a) losing buckets of cash b) a 60h/w management commitment rather than breezing in on Sunny days to see how its going.

Anyhow, we were talking about all the women who work there marching out - Strike!

I was going thru the names of the women who work there and we got to X - 'Oh I dont know why X works. Shes got 'property' which she rents out. Shes rich' (Bear in mind that X lives about 30 miles away, which is a lot of travvellign for a NMW job).

'Really?', I asked, eyebrows raised

'Oh yes. She a place in <shithole A> and another place in <shithole B>. She most be doing really well, I dont know why she works.

'Oh, she's probably losing money on them both' I replied

'I *dont* think so' replied my Mum.

And that little vignette demonstrates the lunacy, innumeracy and general bewilderment by which the whole IO BTL operates.

All of that, but you can still take a position.  For me multiple houses, BTL reniterism, is selfish and greedy.  Especially when it's MEW for deposit, from another HPI'd home, and IO mortgages, making it even harder, and likely higher prices, for on-the-own FTBs.   

With the average BTLer being a 50 year old homeowner, according to one article I read in newspaper the other week.

10 years ago I recall some HPCers making posts that banks had taken advantage of misinformed easy-riches chasing BTLers, and it being less about the BTLer themselves.   How, "99% of the population can't do basic math" as if that is any sort of excuse for their BTLism, or for even their choice in buying a £400,000 home or whatever.  We all can have our views to what is expensive, or not, without being math geniuses.  And also posts about them losing money and voids.  Look, I struggle with a advanced math myself, which makes me even more wary, and forces me to study points and seek advice where necessary.  

And yet 10 years later some of those posters telling about how the BTLers they know of are still in position, as BTL landlords, with multiple homes.   Zirp and QE and what other measures, still holding BTL properties, collecting the rent.  I will believe more of it when they have to sell up, and fewer BTLers.

BTLers buying up millions of homes from the housing stock makes it much more difficult for those trying to advance themselves in life, reliant on their own incomes.   

I went looking to try and find a username of a BTLer I recalled on the Flyde, from Singing Pig.  Had to pull stuff out of PT cache to find it.  Ria... it was Rialto.  

2009 as many HPCers writing-off the BTLers for HPC ahead, claiming suffering homeowners.   On many BTL forums, many BTLers calm, happy,  and still projecting more mad-gains from their BTL property portfolios, and planning more purchases..   

I think this BTL lady quoted below has made a few critical points about S24, and played up how good BTLism is, against all those who would point out that it's no productive business.  Maybe she's one of the BTLers that some have imagined being financially wiped out by S24, but I doubt she would be.   

And I seem to recall Vanessa in a newspaper article, not long before S24 announced, telling how her 'portfolio' (of houses) was either worth £2 million or £5 million, but stressing that what matters is the overall debt.   The BTLers have just totally made out, for so many many years.  'Prudent BTL landlords' ?  That's what someone here recently described some older BTL landlords as, suggesting them responsible for brainwashing really nice people into BTL.  They're all the same, just with different leverage, different entry points.  If it comes to a stop, and some losses ahead, and some losses in their overall wealth, so be it.

Some people want a lot for themselves, on back of HPI  and rentierism, and claims on multiple houses.  The fantasy and damaging effects can't end soon enough, but many BTLers have enjoyed as much as 2 decades from their BTL activity, and many safe even f there was a big HPC.

Quote

Lisa Orme to john_corey 28 Oct 2009 at 20:41
Hi Angela
sorry I missed this post.
I'm aiming for £5-10 million free and clear after selling my portfolio and businesses.
There is NO WAY I'm keeping my portfolio indefinitely. I love it for now but there's too much else I want to do instead!
What I meant by my comment was that if you have even what appears to be a large sum of capital it can soon disappear if you aren't earning a consistent rate of interest. I know a lot of high net worths who are having to tap into their capital resources because of the current low rates. If you want a nice lifestyle then £250k isn't that much!

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:g_w7eRschqkJ:https://www.propertytribes.com/question-week-what-does-it-take-give-up-t-631-4.html+&amp;cd=2&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=uk

[Mossie]

And other people around you, people coming through.

Gen Rent from you and other BTL landlords doing the very same thing.

Priced Outs.   Yet QE and Global QE and zirp.

Quote

 

3 June 2015

..........They decided that becoming landlords would give them the lifestyle they dreamed of and the chance to travel more.

This is not an uncommon motivation for those starting out in buy to let.

Having seen the value of their London home soar, they released £100,000 equity from it and bought a small flat in the north of the capital.

.....

More than a decade later, 52-year-old Vanessa and Nick, 47, who now live in Guildford, Surrey, own 20 flats and houses across London and the South. 

They have accumulated this small empire in the way that many landlords do: by cashing in on the price rise of one house, and using the capital to buy another.

It’s a type of gambling — but with calculated risks.

.......The couple’s portfolio is now worth more than £5million — but Vanessa, who runs Propertytribes.com, a website for landlords, says this figure doesn’t mean anything to them.

‘You could have a property empire worth £200 million, but if you have huge mortgages on all those houses, you don’t own anything. 

Instead, you should look at how much the investments are bringing in.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/guides/article-3106632/How-build-rental-home-empire-stop-one-property-Invest-wisely-ll-surprised-s-possible.html

 

And then to casually go from £5M to compare a BTL portfolio that could be worth £200M.   The dream.. £200M of rented out property?

Some people have no limits, especially on BTL side.

[Lavalas]

Renter savers etc etc

[Mossie]

Quote

 

What do you need more land for?
You own half the country as it is!         
You took it, your people did!

You just live here
all fancied up on rent...              
and broken backs.

 

BTL; Insecure tenure.  Family instabilities.  Hopes crushed for advancing one's own family situation with just a basic home, from employment that previously would have bought a very decent home, or the £750K type valued houses that many older people now enjoy.

All so some people can own multiple houses, and seek to make it far harder for others.

How many houses do the private landlords of the UK own against the housing stock.

With global QE/zirp, it's not just the BTLers responsible for high prices, but MEW to buy at higher prices, has been a part of it.

There was one post about Barry-BTL on HPC, and with Barry such a vocal opponent of S24, having spent £2.3 million on his nice country home in 2014.

If there's anything wrong in my logic Lavalas, then tell me.  Unless you're on 'prudent landlord' side as well, and BTL just a mainstream investment activity where BTL chums were suckered in, with no responsibility for their own choice to BTL.

It's not mainstream for many younger people very priced out of 1 home.  It's for people who already feel secure in owning 1 home, and take on more debt to lay claim to another, betting on HPI, on rent, on capturing a finite resource, and on putting oneself first against others in society when it comes to a basic need of housing.   There's no 'come-together-in-sweet-harmony' coming.  There has been many negative effects on those who have been caught up in decades of very strong HPI 'growth', and from actions of millions of BTLers, and millions of homes claimed by them, to rent out to others.

[Ah-so]

9 hours ago, spyguy said:

In the -panic./chaos/whatnot balloon slips is mooring and starts blowing around.

This would prevent the rapid reaction helicopters/ospreys,  preventing SF deployment.

A single helium balloon grounds our entire airforce. 

'elf and safety gone mad innit

[spyguy]

39 minutes ago, Ah-so said:

A single helium balloon grounds our entire airforce. 

'elf and safety gone mad innit

Pretty much.

Spy seniors  helicopter in ghan crashed as the air was warmer than expected.