Bruce Banner Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Without the illusion of housing wealth, would people Think they were middle class? I'd lump most people as working class because its beyond simple wealth terms. There's social and cultural aspects too. Agreed, I don't think wealth comes into it at all. An observation I've made is that upper class people tend to get on well with lower class people when they move in the same wealth circle (footballers excepted), but neither get on well with the middle classes. Edited February 25, 2014 by Bruce Banner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Bear Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I assume there'd be an interview panel. Like Oxbridge. At a northern working man's club if you want to join the working class, at the DHSS if you fancy your chances in the lower class. It was years ago now, but after my sister and BIL moved to Abu Dhabi it was suggested that they join the British Club. (Considered useful for BIL business- wise). They had to go for a trial evening to check whether they were the Right Sort, i.e. did not say 'toilet' or hold their knives like pencils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) It was years ago now, but after my sister and BIL moved to Abu Dhabi it was suggested that they join the British Club. (Considered useful for BIL business- wise). They had to go for a trial evening to check whether they were the Right Sort, i.e. did not say 'toilet' or hold their knives like pencils. So middle class . Uppers and lowers get decent pressure on the knife and are quite happy with "bog". Edited February 25, 2014 by Bruce Banner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odakyu-sen Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I recon that the upper class's legal systems and social networks that enable this class to manage inter-generational capital accumulation also have a strong influence over the behavior of the upper class. The middle class aspire to be like the upper class in appearance, but have no real idea of the extent of the upper class's legal systems and social networks, as these are generally private in nature and therefore invisible to the general public. The middle class just guess at what these systems and social networks might be, or attempt to create their own to mimic the upper class. Maybe that's why advertising that contains symbols of the upper class is so popular with the middle class. Upper class: secure, with systems to maintain the status quo Middle class (the mimic class): aspire to look like the upper class Working class: secure because they know their place Lower class: living hand-to-mouth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Upper class: secure, with systems to maintain the status quo Middle class (the mimic class): aspire to look like the upper class Working class: secure because they know their place Lower class: living hand-to-mouth Whilst there might be many middle class like that I don't think that's a good definition of middle class - effect instead of cause (or at least use that as an analogy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashmonitor Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) I recon that the upper class's legal systems and social networks that enable this class to manage inter-generational capital accumulation also have a strong influence over the behavior of the upper class. The middle classes have made a start with the 650k tax free inter-generational accumulator for the surviving widow or widower to pass on. Definitely what all mainstream politicians aspire to, family property hoards, Tony Blair style. Makes absolute sense that someone departing this world having contributed to the two trillion debt possibly through extended longevity should get to pass on the property hoard tax free and exacerbate the social divide and sperm lottery system. Who needs first time buyers when we have the new middle class wealth accumulator. Edited February 25, 2014 by crashmonitor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomandlu Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Agreed, I don't think wealth comes into it at all. An observation I've made is that upper class people tend to get on well with lower class people when they move in the same wealth circle (footballers excepted), but neither get on well with the middle classes. More accurately, "neither get on well with the lower-middle classes". The upper middle, traditionally, were only a minor rung below the upper-classes, and would have been made up of the most well-paid professions, and are the traditional recipients of the non-hereditary honours. The lower-middle, meanwhile, were perceived as a more fragile cohort, desperately aware of their fringe-status, self-concious and wishing to appear more cultured and well-educated than they actually were. However, I think the underlying economics behind the old class-system are effectively dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-so Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 More accurately, "neither get on well with the lower-middle classes". The upper middle, traditionally, were only a minor rung below the upper-classes, and would have been made up of the most well-paid professions, and are the traditional recipients of the non-hereditary honours. The lower-middle, meanwhile, were perceived as a more fragile cohort, desperately aware of their fringe-status, self-concious and wishing to appear more cultured and well-educated than they actually were. However, I think the underlying economics behind the old class-system are effectively dead. Quite. The captain Mannering / Sergeant Wilson divide. Both middle class but at Wilson was far closer to the upper classes. Captain Mainwaring was socially closer to the privates and was always treated as such when the officer class came to town. The genius of Dad's army was to swap their position of authority - Wilson was only a bank clerk and sergeant despite his breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomandlu Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Quite. The captain Mannering / Sergeant Wilson divide. Both middle class but at Wilson was far closer to the upper classes. Captain Mainwaring was socially closer to the privates and was always treated as such when the officer class came to town. The genius of Dad's army was to swap their position of authority - Wilson was only a bank clerk and sergeant despite his breeding. Good call. Basil Fawlty would be another good example of the lower-middle class anxiety used for comic effect - "You never get it right, do you? You're either crawling all over them, licking their boots, or spitting poison at them like some benzedrine puff adder." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Allegro Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 More accurately, "neither get on well with the lower-middle classes". The upper middle, traditionally, were only a minor rung below the upper-classes, and would have been made up of the most well-paid professions, and are the traditional recipients of the non-hereditary honours. The lower-middle, meanwhile, were perceived as a more fragile cohort, desperately aware of their fringe-status, self-concious and wishing to appear more cultured and well-educated than they actually were. However, I think the underlying economics behind the old class-system are effectively dead. Yes. The reason why people clung to middle-class status for so long was because with a little effort, thrift etc it was possible to become, economically at least, part of the upper class (in the sense of being able to live off capital). Victorian and Edwardian literature is full of characters who either through their own diligence or inheritance were able to scrape together a few hundred pounds, and then live reasonably comfortably without working, either in a private hotel or a country cottage. By the 1930s, as Orwell wrote, that was becoming more and more difficult, yet people still clung to its ideals. Exporting oneself to the colonies, such as India and Africa, was another way to do it. Paul Scott writes about this in 'The Jewel in the Crown' showing the plight of characters like Barbie Bachelor who can't afford to go 'home' after independence in 1947 and are driven to madness and death by the prospect. In some ways BTL was the last hurrah for that system in our own times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John51 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Early life experience plays its part too. Years ago there was a radio interview with an upper class guy talking about his Indian friend who got jailed for sedition during the struggle for independence. They met up a few years later and he asked what being in jail was like. His friend smiled and said 'We both went to Eton, prison has no fear for us'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattW Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Working Class means "doing physical work outside an office, often wearing a uniform, can die from a work-related accident, manipulates objects and people in the real world I think the newer meaning of working class needs to include white collar office workers, like myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepwello'nights Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 What the **** is wrong with being middle class. Class is not necessarily about income or financial wealth, it is about standards and behaviour. I have no desire to travel abroad to eat fish and chips in a European country, nor to have a drunken food fight with a load of toffs in a, well wherever they happen to have food fights. Drunks and boors with no consideration for others around them. I'm not middle class in income terms, I still have to work for my money, nor am I anywhere near upper class either in terms of capital, connections or anything else. I may have aspirations to improve myself in terms of manners, cultural experiences and travel. I see nothing wrong in behaving considerately and trying to be aware of others feelings and susceptibilities. Mock me if you like, I have no shame in being or aspiring to be middle class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Sacks Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 A definition for each of the poll options would be helpful as this particular form of arbitrary segregation is a bit vague these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habeas Domus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Another way to think about this is not in terms of money income or capital but how much do they SPEND. The upper class have so much money they can only ever spend a small fraction of it. The lower/working class spend such a high proportion of their income on rent and bills, theres not much left to spend. The middle class, spend a huge proportion of their income, sometimes taking out huge loans and mortgages to spend more than they will ever earn. Social mobility was a big buzzword of the 90's with lots of people moving into the middle class bracket. This could change in the future. Actually I agree with those saying this is not really about money, class is more about attitude, but I think your attitude to spending says more about your social class than the actual amount of money you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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