Middle Class Exit

[JBFTB]

America, I can only say that when i grew up being intelligent was something to be proud of, whereas my British friends my own age (late 30's- mid 40's) have all talked about how no one wanted to be seen as a "swot".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, that rings a bell alright. I remember that all too well at school, it was as if actually wanting to achieve the best you could was something to be ashamed of. I think there was a news article about it recently, something about less and less kids ending up in science jobs because it was seen as nerdy.

[impatientFTB]

So I honestly ask, What is a Chav?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I heard it was derived from cheltenham average.

Anyway, it appears the chav culture has spread since the emergence of eminem on the music scene, a 'person' who is worshipped by the chavs and seen as god like.

The sooner that moron is assassinated the better, and we can try and get back to a civilised normality.

[dogbox]

I thought chavs were being targetted more than 'foreigners' in this thread, but I could be wrong.  The rich and the chavs have got richer in the last few years at the expense of the hard-working, middle class professionals (together with the tax-paying working class) who have had to pay for it all. 

If the Lib - Dems get in they will introduce a local income Tax to replace Council Tax.

This will affect employed middle classes dissproportionaly.

I come into contact with many monied chavs through my business.

They earns lots of money but pay very low Tax due to creative accounting and the 'cash culture' which comes with the territory. You will come across these types all the time but often you wont realise how wealthy they are (eg - drain un blocking self employed guys).

Example; I know a guy lives in a £1.5m house. He ownes 4 market stalls.

His Taxable Net profit is around £22000. This is split between himself and spouse so thier actual marginal rate of Tax is far lower than middle class employed people who have to declare all earnings. The real earnings of the couple is £2000 per week.

Another cleans the outside walls of large buildings. He spends £800 per month on take - aways. Takes home £2600 per week yet Tax calculated on £29000.

Believe me these are not exceptions. These people represent a significant proportion of the population.

Other examples; 2 brothers own a large 'driveway laying' Co. They declare very low Taxable incomes (£27000) yet own mini mansions, drive Rangerovers (plus wives have flash cars), own horses etc.

The middle classes effectively subsidise these people. As for the Revenue getting stuck in, it rarely happens so there is no effective deterent IN THE REAL WORLD. Even when they do investigate the monied chavs know all the ruses and loopholes.

Lib Dems will REDUCE the council Tax bills for such people as thier declared earned incomes are very low compared with employed neighbours.

[JustYield]

Anyway, it appears the chav culture has spread since the emergence of eminem on the music scene, a 'person' who is worshipped by the chavs and seen as god like.

The sooner that moron is assassinated the better, and we can try and get back to a civilised normality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eminem has talent and is widely respected as an entertainer, poet and social commentator. His story is about the struggle to get away from the streets; which reminds me - we've got Mike Skinner, another talented, self-aware chav-artist.

The real damage is done when people in large numbers believe they can emulate these stars and get famous with no discernable talent. This has been encouraged by the mindless rise of celebrity/reality TV and mega-wealthy pop-stars like J-Lo "I'm still Jenny from the block" and before her the very ordinary Spice Girls - far more damaging than Marshall Mathers III.

[JustYield]

Very interesting DB, you've got some good examples there to back up my unsubstantiated observations.

[Timmy Manson]

Other examples; 2 brothers own a large 'driveway laying' Co. They declare very low Taxable incomes (£27000) yet own mini mansions, drive Rangerovers (plus wives have flash cars), own horses etc.

The middle classes effectively subsidise these people. As for the Revenue getting stuck in, it rarely happens so there is no effective deterent IN THE REAL WORLD. Even when they do investigate the monied chavs know all the ruses and loopholes.

Lib Dems will REDUCE the council Tax bills for such people as thier declared earned incomes are very low compared with employed neighbours.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on DB, the middle class should be renamed the PAYE class! Because they never see income before tax they have just got used to having 1/3 of there earnings dissapear each month, so I think they don't even miss it as most people seem to ignore the pre-tax bit of there pay cheque anyway.

Even better these people have come to accept that it's natural & normal for these taxes to be levied, so there can be no alternative way to fund the state, they may even feel morally obliged to pay the taxes, remember the euphoria with which GBs decision not to raise taxes higher last budget round were greeted with...... anyone would have thought he'd cut taxes by 20%!

The MC also cannot seem to accept that the vast majority of what is taken off them in tax is simply wasted.

I'm going to play devils advocate here and say that it may be that generally, university educated middle class people simply refuse to accept that they are less well off than a large number of non-university educated people. Probably because they then might wonder why on earth they spent 3 yrs at Uni running up debts and missing out on foregone earnings? If they have to pay high taxes then that must mean that they are 'better off' than the large number of poorer people who must exist.....

[dogbox]

Very interesting DB, you've got some good examples there to back up my unsubstantiated observations.

I listed to 'Today' on Radio 4 daily.

The middle class presenters and contributors dont seem to be aware of the scale of Tax avoidance in the real world.

I meet many many chavs who have got life 'sussed'. They know just how to play the victim (essential for false compensation claims), pay very little Tax, have nice holidays, expensive clothes and cars and love exerting thier rights as long as there is a gain in it.

Many own several properties and usually a villa in Spain, yet according to the Government stats these people are in low income brackets!

They often earn far far more than the so called middle classes that look down on them.

Go to any shopping centre car park or 'family fun' restaraunt. See how many roughly spoken chavs pull - up in BMW X5s, Range Rovers etc.

Ive heard a chav say this about a middle class worker that 'wound im up' "I earn more in a day than that little do - gooder earns in a week, and ee finkls Im fik".

Its like a giant counter culture than Radio 4 middle class types have absolutely no conception of.

Even your basic non monied chav earns a lot of undeclared cash so his effective net pay is often at a middle class level.

The people on this thread defending chavs are the real victims and it is thier desire to see the good in everyone that has created this giant fraud (bit like invalidity benefit).

[Crazy88s]

I listed to 'Today' on Radio 4 daily.

The middle class presenters and contributors dont seem to be aware of the scale of Tax avoidance in the real world.

I meet many many chavs who have got life 'sussed'. They know just how to play the victim (essential for false compensation claims), pay very little Tax, have nice holidays, expensive clothes and cars and love exerting thier rights as long as there is a gain in it.

Many own several properties and usually a villa in Spain, yet according to the Government stats these people are in low income brackets!

They often earn far far more than the so called middle classes that look down on them.

Go to any shopping centre car park or 'family fun' restaraunt. See how many roughly spoken chavs pull - up in BMW X5s, Range Rovers etc.

Ive heard a chav say this about a middle class worker that 'wound im up' "I earn more in a day than that little do - gooder earns in a week, and ee finkls Im fik".

Its like a giant counter culture than Radio 4 middle class types have absolutely no conception of.

Even your basic non monied chav earns a lot of undeclared cash so his effective net pay is often at a middle class level.

The people on this thread defending chavs are the real victims and it is thier desire to see the good in everyone that has created this giant fraud (bit like invalidity benefit).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

DB

Have to agree with you.

The middle class PAYE are paying for everything.

Those at the top (company directors) also, like chavs, have access to mechanisms to limit the amount of tax they have to pay. For example a company director can pay all his salary in dividends and pay very little tax.

[zzg113]

being a drug dealer WORKS for a lot of people - they get vast sums of money for just the risk of getting caught ( and let's face it, the Police aren't bothered anymore about drugs). There was a guy in my town, started selling cannabis etc...moved to Manchester....pushed there, made loads of dosh...began buying houses with his new found wealth because it was the best way to hide his new wealth and is now a landlord and drives a flash car. I despise him and his ilk. But for him, selling drugs worked.

#

Crime DOES pay in today's UK.

[Timmy Manson]

Its like a giant counter culture than Radio 4 middle class types have absolutely no conception of.

Even your basic non monied chav earns a lot of undeclared cash so his effective net pay is often at a middle class level.

The people on this thread defending chavs are the real victims and it is thier desire to see the good in everyone that has created this giant fraud (bit like invalidity benefit).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Given that TB attended Fetters ( v. posh public school ) then Oxford University, and that GB, has a similar upper middle class background I wonder if it's possible that they are simply doo-gooders who have never had any real contact ( i.e did not grow up amongst ) the people that they are so obsessed with helping, and can't possibly imagine that they are taking them for a rise. I can tell you this, if the middle class is expecting some kind of gratitude off the 'under class' for there lassage they are severely mistaken.

I still think that the average middle class person actually likes paying tax, because if they're paying tax then there must be people out there that are poorer & therefore inferior to them. The last thing they want to be told is that a brickie or plumber or market stall owner who left school at 16 is earning more than them.

[non-FTBer]

Interesting points.

My definition of chav would be similar to whats been discussed in that I think its behavioural, not background. I see many people from middle and upper class backgrounds who act in a chavvy way.

As for tax avoidance and undisclosed earnings... does anybody have any figures on what the official level of tax avoidance is expected to be???

[JustYield]

The last thing they want to be told is that a brickie or plumber or market stall owner who left school at 16 is earning more than them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... and has a bigger house

[right_freds_dead]

crime does pay. and so does HP crime. if a chav nicks a stereo worth £30 thats bad, but when i see to EAs selling a property for two different prices i think to myself this is possibly a crime also.

the crime and chav are not class exclusive. white collar crime of a kind is rife here. i think it always has been a white collar crime fraud hotbed of a country.

you take their GDP, they take your garden tools.

[JustYield]

crime does pay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought that's why the working class and upper class always got on well - they both know this!

On tax - anyone who pays cash to get a lower quote from a workman is complicit in the tax avoidance and should not be surprised when, as a soft touch PAYE target, he is clobbered with higher taxes.

[88Crash]

Its like a giant counter culture than Radio 4 middle class types have absolutely no conception of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After living most of my life in London, OK parts and rough parts, I have spent the last 5 years living in Surrey

Nice area, no muggers and hopefullt I'm not tempting fate, by saying my car hasn't been broken into once

Neighbours are all nice middle class folk and generally well educated YET they do not have a clue about life outside the leafy suburbs

Thats why I guess they are happy to pat their taxes to support some of the stuff discussed on this thread

They know there is some abuse of the system, but most don't have a real understanding about the scale of some of the problems

Other side of the coin would be 'they are OK Jack' so they don't care, after all social problems such as street crime are NOT a significant problem in many UK suburbs

[right_freds_dead]

I thought that's why the working class and upper class always got on well - they both know this!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

they do tend to get on well in prison - which seems odd, but is true.

also you dont see many middle class people in prison except for perhaps sex crimes and love triangle murders. UK prisons tend to have 90% scallies and 10% fruadster toffs.

[George]

This guy for Prime Minister:

He'd take no shit with scrotes who mug people at train stations etc. bLIAR doesn't cut the mustard.

[dogbox]

After living most of my life in London, OK parts and rough parts, I have spent the last 5 years living in Surrey

Nice area, no muggers and hopefullt I'm not tempting fate, by saying my car hasn't been broken into once

Neighbours are all nice middle class folk and generally well educated YET they do not have a clue about life outside the leafy suburbs

Actually I find chavs are very much a part of suburbia.

Very good freinds live in Epsom Surrey and we visit all the time. Went out to Chigago's nearby and it was wall 2 wall chavs.

I live near Bishops Stortford in Herts, and its not too chavvy but go to Southern Herts (Cheshunt, Hoddesdon) and its chav mecca. Similar to Crawley or Sutton in Surrey, everyones a 'geesarr'.

Every other 'bloke' has a white van, burberry cap and lives for undeclared cash. Has flash car, orange wife, pitbull, plasma screen, latest mobile, wears sweat shop produced fashion (doesnt question things like exploitation) and often a fairly good house.

Im not meaning to insult other users, but some people dont seem as observant as they could.

Observe whos driving flash cars over the next week.

[Guest The dude]

Actually I find chavs are very much a part of suburbia.

Very good freinds live in Epsom Surrey and we visit all the time. Went out to Chigago's nearby and it was wall 2 wall chavs.

I live near Bishops Stortford in Herts, and its not too chavvy but go to Southern Herts (Cheshunt, Hoddesdon) and its chav mecca. Similar to Crawley or Sutton in Surrey, everyones a 'geesarr'.

Every other 'bloke' has a white van, burberry cap and lives for undeclared cash. Has flash car, orange wife, pitbull, plasma screen, latest mobile, wears sweat shop produced fashion (doesnt question things like exploitation) and often a fairly good house.

Im not meaning to insult other users, but some people dont seem as observant as they could.

Observe whos driving flash cars over the next week.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Every other 'bloke' has a white van, burberry cap and lives for undeclared cash. Has flash car, orange wife, pitbull, plasma screen, latest mobile, wears sweat shop produced fashion (doesnt question things like exploitation) and often a fairly good house"

......orange wife!....hehe I like that one

[gone west]

Actually I find chavs are very much a part of suburbia.

Every other 'bloke' has a white van, burberry cap and lives for undeclared cash. Has flash car, orange wife, pitbull, plasma screen, latest mobile, wears sweat shop produced fashion (doesnt question things like exploitation) and often a fairly good house.

Observe whos driving flash cars over the next week.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ouch! sounds like my old neighbours. Except they had a Porsche and beemer...

[The Masked Tulip]

Every other 'bloke' has a white van, burberry cap and lives for undeclared cash. Has flash car, orange wife, pitbull, plasma screen, latest mobile, wears sweat shop produced fashion (doesnt question things like exploitation) and often a fairly good house.

To me this explains the Jordan 'situation' where we end up with her being a 'contender' for the UK's Eurovision song entry. Nothing against the girl but, to me personally, she looks comical when, in reality, she is an icon that a large and significant number of people in the South East now aspire to. They had Thatcher in the '80s, now they have Jordan!

[Marina]

Have to say the sort of people described in the last few posts don't bother me too much. Although I have always paid my taxes, and would prefer it if I could pay less by others paying their fair wack, I have always had a sort of grudging admiration for people who earn good money and avoid giving much of it to the government so they can employ more people to devise and monitor the social exclusion policies of the local council etc etc etc.

The people I want to move away from are sort of young people that go to that place on Cyprus whose name I cannot remember and, every time they see a camera, show their tits or arses to it. The yobs round here that drive around in uninsured Ford Fiestas with their baseball caps on back to front with some awful bass thump emanating from the car. The two yobs on scooters who attacked my son and his friend in a local park recently and drove their scooters over my son's friend and then tried to strangle him. A completely unprovoked assault which the police seem to think is somehow excused by the fact they were on drugs. The people who keep dumping rubbish in the lane near my house instead of taking it to the council tip a couple of miles away.

A little aside. I was in Fowey, Cornwall about a year ago in the tiny, barely wide enough for one car, picturesque high street. A bloke pulled up and parked half on and off the pavement outside an Estate Agent. The noise coming out of this car was deafening - he must have had hundreds of watts on the go. It really shattered the peace. Immediately one of the Estate Agents leapt to his feet, charged through the door onto the street, banged on the roof of the car and yelled at a superhuman level of decibels 'TURN THAT FU*KING NOISE OFF'.

The driver of the car noted the demeanour of the Estate Agent, turned the noise off and sat there looking a bit self-concious.

The moral of the story is that Estate Agents do have their uses.

[magictorch]

No they blooming well dont! Freeloaders the lot of them!

[88Crash]

Actually I find chavs are very much a part of suburbia.

Very good freinds live in Epsom Surrey and we visit all the time. Went out to Chigago's nearby and it was wall 2 wall chavs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I actually moved to Epsom from London and you are right about your observations

I've been living here for the last 5 years and (relatively speaking) Epsom has got a lot worse in the last 5 years

However, I wasn't just refering to Chav's, which has already been pointed out on this thread, it a bit of an over used term

My point was that people in the suburbs/middle class tax payers are oblivious to some of the really serious stuff that is happening in of our cities/large towns

My experience is from London, but I suspect it would be similar in Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester etc, and I can assure you that the Chav's in Epsom and the associated low life, benefit fraudsters, criminals and the associated social problems are MINOR compared to UK cities

PS The Pikey's in Epsom are best avoided - some are HARD and I think more of them carry firearms than in the old days - sign of the times, I guess

[Saving For a Space Ship]

In my mind, being a chav isn't a class thing.  More of a behavioural thing.  It is the blantant disregard for anyone else except yourself.  The problem in this country is we have a media, Radio, TV and Press.....which seems to glorify and condone the worst bits of human behaviour and hold it up aloft saying 'this is cool'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After A bit of thought I am Seriously in agreement with the theory of chavdom being a 'behavioural thing' & not a class thing. Overall it could be perhaps described as a extremely narcissistic, morally insane attitude/lifestyle. :angry:

After a bit more thought on an non-serious note I wondered what music middle class Chavs would listen to. I thought perhaps Roxy Music .....Chavallon...Sorry I'll get my coat..it's late