Middle Class Exit

[zorn]

Unlike you I can't be bothered to work out the fine detail of personal allowances etc etc. One of the things Gordon Brown has done is make the whole system so complex no-one can work it out.

I am not remotely interested in tax as a proportion of GDP. I am interested in the tax I pay. I know how much tax I pay. I know that almost every time I spend money I pay tax. I know that if I buy food and it is zero rated the building housing the food is taxed. The business that sold it to me is taxed. The person who served it to me is taxed.

I tax my car. I insure my car. I pay tax on the insurance. I put petrol in the tank - 75% tax. Likewise my wife's car. I have a pint - lots of tax. If I were stupid enough to smoke - lots of tax. If I earn good money and operate within the PAYE system lots of tax.

I mentioned sorting someone's affairs out above. The husband was on 50k. His take home was a few quid short of £2500 a month. That's a straight 40% on his earnings - he had a small company car - more tax. As I say, plus the petrol and the VAT on everything he spent. Must head up towards 60% of his earnings. The proportion of GDP figure hides the fact that an awful lot of people don't pay tax - I pay it for them - that's why mine is so high. I'd love it if the total take on my earnings was 37% - happy as Larry I'd be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When was it otherwise?

[Bluelady]

How would you know that BL? You've never employed either (in your stand-offish and intemperate posts on this forum).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The words pot and kettle spring to mind.

[Marina]

The worst thing that the Tories can do is win the next election. Thats because there are uncertain economic times ahead so if Tories win they would cop all the blame.

Best to console oneself with the knowledge that Labours win will proove and hot ugly potato.

I want a hybrid between the Greens and Right Wing Neo - Cons to emerge. That is a 'Britain is now closed' policy linked with a mass scrapping of regulation, benefits and PC Human rights, coupled with total care for our one and only tiny enviroment - unique in all the universe so worth taking very good care of. All the benefit scroungers could work a few hours a day caring for and enhancing the enviroment. What a vote winning message.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds good to me.

[Bluelady]

Unlike you I can't be bothered to work out the fine detail of personal allowances etc etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which is precisely why you talk such utter rubbish - if you want to convince anyone with your arguments, getting your facts straight is fairly fundamental.

[Marina]

When was it otherwise?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You might have the grace to admit that, for people who pay tax, tax has been rising inexorably under Labour.

My council tax has gone up 60% since 1997. It won't go up much this year, surprise, surprise, election, but next year it will go up double. It will then be about 2k. When I was a lad that was a mortgage - when I'm a pensioner I'm going to have to find probably 3k a year for council tax out of a pension of £110 a week.

[Saving For a Space Ship]

The worst thing that the Tories can do is win the next election. Thats because there are uncertain economic times ahead so if Tories win they would cop all the blame.

Best to console oneself with the knowledge that Labours win will proove and hot ugly potato.

I want a hybrid between the Greens and Right Wing Neo - Cons to emerge. That is a 'Britain is now closed' policy linked with a mass scrapping of regulation, benefits and PC Human rights, coupled with total care for our one and only tiny enviroment - unique in all the universe so worth taking very good care of. All the benefit scroungers could work a few hours a day caring for and enhancing the enviroment. What a vote winning message.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The 'Neo-Econs' Cometh

[Kam]

The worst thing that the Tories can do is win the next election. Thats because there are uncertain economic times ahead so if Tories win they would cop all the blame.

Best to console oneself with the knowledge that Labours win will proove and hot ugly potato.

I want a hybrid between the Greens and Right Wing Neo - Cons to emerge. That is a 'Britain is now closed' policy linked with a mass scrapping of regulation, benefits and PC Human rights, coupled with total care for our one and only tiny enviroment - unique in all the universe so worth taking very good care of. All the benefit scroungers could work a few hours a day caring for and enhancing the enviroment. What a vote winning message.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Green Right-wing Neo Cons would get my vote

of the 3 main parties the only differences are their 'Branding' colour Red,Blue and yellow

when every major party is bland on the radical reform ideas, its time to worry. Eventually some crackpot government will get in because people have had enough.

No real policies just re-worded spin. Atleast there doing there bit for the enviroment and recycling each other policies, and car pooling in the same ethos. Trouble is Maggie Thatcher was driving , but shes dead/asleep at the wheel.

politcally we need wipe the slate clean get rid of career politicians and bring in people with real skills and beliefs in make Britain great, not what benefits them, there friends and allies

Wheres Oliver Cromwell when you need him

Kam

[RichM]

Green Right-wing Neo Cons would get my vote 

of the 3 main parties the only differences are their 'Branding' colour Red,Blue and yellow

when every major party is bland on the radical reform ideas, its time to worry. Eventually some crackpot government will get in because people have had enough.

No real policies just re-worded spin. Atleast there doing there bit for the enviroment and recycling each other policies, and car pooling in the same ethos. Trouble is Maggie Thatcher was driving  , but shes dead/asleep at the wheel.

politcally we need wipe the slate clean get rid of career politicians and bring in people with real skills and beliefs  in make Britain great, not what benefits them, there friends and allies

Wheres Oliver Cromwell when you need him

Kam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why not just just neo-cons?

You are right, real drive and leadership is what this country needs.

[Marina]

Which is precisely why you talk such utter rubbish - if you want to convince anyone with your arguments, getting your facts straight is fairly fundamental.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't need to convince anyone - anyone who pays tax knows that spouting the figure that the total tax take hasn't gone up is absolutely meaningless.

Unfortunately, you hide behind figures to try to prove a spurious argument.

Anyone on here that pays 40% tax feel that they aren't paying more tax, year after year.

You can sit and work out all the allowances and thresholds if you want. I know I pay a lot more tax - especially including council tax - than I did when New Labour came to power. Why you want to kid yourself this isn't so is beyone me.

[Guest Charlie The Tramp]

I want a hybrid between the Greens and Right Wing Neo - Cons to emerge.

Sounds like Red China. The greens being the colour of the uniforms of the militia.

As the down trodden underclasses revolt against their slavery, the new Red Guards will come forth. The new bling millionare Warlords in their mansions will find history repeating itself

[Bluelady]

I don't need to convince anyone - anyone who pays tax knows that spouting the figure that the total tax take hasn't gone up is absolutely meaningless.

Unfortunately, you hide behind figures to try to prove a spurious argument.

Anyone on here that pays 40% tax feel that they aren't paying more tax, year after year.

You can sit and work out all the allowances and thresholds if you want. I know I pay a lot more tax - especially including council tax - than I did when New Labour came to power. Why you want to kid yourself this isn't so is beyone me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps because my perception is that I'm not paying more tax than I was? Council tax has certainly increased but I can't remember a time when local taxation didn't increase year on year under governments of both colours, the time my tax really went through the ceiling was the brief period when we had poll tax.

[zorn]

Perhaps because my perception is that I'm not paying more tax than I was?  Council tax has certainly increased but I can't remember a time when local taxation didn't increase year on year under governments of both colours, the time my tax really went through the ceiling was the brief period when we had poll tax.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Overall, there was a big reduction in local tax when the poll tax came in, and another big reduction when it was replaced with the council tax. That's why local government gets about 80% of its funding from central government and not from local taxation.

[dogbox]

Can I see if I've got this correct. You want a mass scrapping of regulations except for a mass tightening up of the ones that you like, such as immigration regulations and environmental regulations. You want to scrap benefits while simultaneously getting people claiming the benefits you've just scrapped to work "enhancing the environment". You don't believe in human rights, except of course for your right to buy a nice house in a nice area at a price you can afford. I think you might have a few tiny inconsistencies in your position.

I would love u and all the other Liberals to be given 1/2 the country whilst me and my type get the other 1/2. After 10 years my 1/2 would have virtually no crime (very easy to do - Singapore & others proove this), benefits only for the truly needy, no compensation culture, no unsuitable TV for Kids, care for the enviroment etc. Your 1/2 would resemble something out of Blade - Runner where no one is every at fault for thier own actions and every potential villain has thier own dedicated social worker, because no doubt you all believe prison doesnt work.

You display a tiny intelect. What on earth could be wrong with requiring many on benefits to make a contribution to the community in which they live. The knock on benefit would be that these peoples children would come to accept that work and societal input is a good and normal endeavour.

I dont believe in the mass exploitation of UK fair play mentality in order for apparent victims to benefit.

I worked in a largish corporate a few years back and several ethnic minority women mounted claims for disrimination yet the white employees (me included) were treated just the same which was just fine BTW. Its just plain simple human greed and selfishness.

This country needs to get rid of lots of employment regulation in order to survive. OK so giving up some rights is the cost, but in return people are more likely to have provided a core human right in the shape of a viable job.

'Humans Rights' Liberal consensus simply leads to people exploiting the system. I see this time and time again.

Human Rights are vital but need to be balanced with the right of society to function in a fair and consistent manner. I much prefer the Australian no - nonsense common sense approach to society and law.

[dogbox]

Green Right-wing Neo Cons would get my vote 

of the 3 main parties the only differences are their 'Branding' colour Red,Blue and yellow

when every major party is bland on the radical reform ideas, its time to worry. Eventually some crackpot government will get in because people have had enough.

No real policies just re-worded spin. Atleast there doing there bit for the enviroment and recycling each other policies, and car pooling in the same ethos. Trouble is Maggie Thatcher was driving  , but shes dead/asleep at the wheel.

politcally we need wipe the slate clean get rid of career politicians and bring in people with real skills and beliefs  in make Britain great, not what benefits them, there friends and allies

Wheres Oliver Cromwell when you need him

Kam

Absolutely right. Why on earth do we appoint someone as minister for health, which hither - to they knew nothing about.

Ive thought for years we need a totally new radical right of centre bunch. No more bland same old same old.

Imagine this message;

"I will cut crime in 1/2 within 36 months, through a zero tolerence approach, that is, clamping down very hard on the slightest mis - demeanour.

This will benefit potential criminals by showing them there is no alternative to the rules. In other words they get the message from day one where as under the current system they get chance after chance until by the time they are locked - up crime has become 'welded' to thier core, and so virtually impossible to remove. Prison does work if it is used on first or perhaps second offence".

[Marina]

If Dogbox keeps this up I am going to have to start a fan club. Spot on old dog.

[Maynard]

Absolutely right. Why on earth do we appoint someone as minister for health, which hither - to they knew nothing about.

Ive thought for years we need a totally new radical right of centre bunch. No more bland same old same old.

Imagine this message;

"I will cut crime in 1/2 within 36 months, through a zero tolerence approach, that is, clamping down very hard on the slightest mis - demeanour.

This will benefit potential criminals by showing them there is no alternative to the rules. In other words they get the message from day one where as under the current system they get chance after chance until by the time they are locked - up crime has become 'welded' to thier core, and so virtually impossible to remove. Prison does work if it is used on first or perhaps second offence".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's great to see like-minded people on the forum.

I agree with these policies we need zero tolerance on criminals and the ignorant trash who sponge from the state. A return of "victorian" values cracking down on teenage pregnacy and disipline.

We need an immigration system that works, as discussed recently, a points system like that of Australia's may be an idea.

But maybe this is all just a dream, will things get worse before they get better?

[m00seb0y2]

A return of "victorian" values ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That'll be over-the-counter opiates for all and the age of consent dropped to 13 ?

[Marina]

Just when I thought I had heard everything ...

A bloke was interviewed by someone called Daisy on LBC this afternoon. YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE THIS.

He was in his house when a group of about 10 yobs sat on his front garden and started drinking beer, smoking dope and sniffing glue. He was unwilling to confront them as he wasn't feeling up to being kicked to death so he rang the Police - who are supposed to protect us, I believe - and, to make sure he had evidence, he took a photograph of said yobs through the window. All hell broke loose as one of the yobs spotted him doing it and they tried to smash their way into his house.

At some point during the fracas he emailed the (presumably digital) pictures to the local police as well. When the police arrived they politely took some names and addresses of the yobs and sent them on their way. Apparently there was no possibility of arrest etc due to lack of evidence. The man said 'But I took a photo of them and I have emailed it to the police'.

The copper said, and this is the unbelievable bit, 'You do realise I could arrest you for doing that'. The bloke was understandably flabberghasted so he asked under what legislation. Apparently the Data Protection Act was mentioned - taking the picture invaded the 'victims' right to privacy - and the Human Rights act got a mention as well.

This bloke has had trouble for a while apparently and he said to the copper 'I am thinking of putting up closed circuit TV cameras'. Again, this would be against the law apparently if they covered an area that extended any further than half way across the pavement. The bloke took it up with his Solicitor and the local council. The people at the council said that if he took pictures of people without their permission he would be breaking the law.

So, next time you take the kids to the seaside you better shout 'Everyone off the beach please, I want to take a picture of my kids playing in the sand - or if you won't move will you please sign this disclaimer saying you don't object to appearing in the background of my photo. Thank you!'

Any of you on here that have expressed any sort of positive feelings for this country - you need to be aware you are, I mean you really are, living in a madhouse.

[Guest The dude]

Just when I thought I had heard everything ...

A bloke was interviewed by someone called Daisy on LBC this afternoon. YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE THIS.

He was in his house when a group of about 10 yobs sat on his front garden and started drinking beer, smoking dope and sniffing glue. He was unwilling to confront them as he wasn't feeling up to being kicked to death so he rang the Police - who are supposed to protect us, I believe - and, to make sure he had evidence, he took a photograph of said yobs through the window. All hell broke loose as one of the yobs spotted him doing it and they tried to smash their way into his house.

At some point during the fracas he emailed the (presumably digital) pictures to the local police as well. When the police arrived they politely took some names and addresses of the yobs and sent them on their way. Apparently there was no possibility of arrest etc due to lack of evidence. The man said 'But I took a photo of them and I have emailed it to the police'.

The copper said, and this is the unbelievable bit, 'You do realise I could arrest you for doing that'. The bloke was understandably flabberghasted so he asked under what legislation. Apparently the Data Protection Act was mentioned - taking the picture invaded the 'victims' right to privacy - and the Human Rights act got a mention as well.

This bloke has had trouble for a while apparently and he said to the copper 'I am thinking of putting up closed circuit TV cameras'. Again, this would be against the law apparently if they covered an area that extended any further than half way across the pavement. The bloke took it up with his Solicitor and the local council. The people at the council said that if he took pictures of people without their permission he would be breaking the law.

So, next time you take the kids to the seaside you better shout 'Everyone off the beach please, I want to take a picture of my kids playing in the sand - or if you won't move will you please sign this disclaimer saying you don't object to appearing in the background of my photo. Thank you!'

Any of you on here that have expressed any sort of positive feelings for this country - you need to be aware you are, I mean you really are, living in a madhouse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Marina....this is why the law is an ass......We, the Public are defenceless...we cannot do anything to protect ourselves for fear of prosecution....the police don't want to know....mainly because the police themselves are being SOLD DOWN THE RIVER by Political Correctness.....I don't blame the police. I blame those gangsters in suits aka lawyers who truly are the scum of the earth...Oh how I despise LAWYERS

[Marina]

Perhaps because my perception is that I'm not paying more tax than I was?  Council tax has certainly increased but I can't remember a time when local taxation didn't increase year on year under governments of both colours, the time my tax really went through the ceiling was the brief period when we had poll tax.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know - maybe you don't earn much. One little search on the web revealed this:

_________________________________________________________

Tax rises have cost the average household around

£5,000 since Labour came to power, Welsh Conservatives have claimed.

And the party is warning of a fresh Labour tax grab if Tony Blair wins the next election.

Despite a 1997 manifesto pledge that Labour is "not about high taxes on ordinary families", the Government has increased taxes 66 times in the last seven years.

It include rises in National Insurance contributions, and increases in duty on petrol, house sales, alcohol and tobacco.

Chancellor Gordon Brown has also refused to raise

income tax thresholds in line with earnings - which has dragged an estimated 1.5 million more people into the higher tax net.

A firm of independent accountants last month supported claims that middle income earners now pay 50p in every pound they earn to the taxman.

Despite Tony Blair's election pledge to avoid income tax increases, his Chancellor has managed to achieve a massive rise in the Government's annual tax take.

In Wales the average Council Tax bill in Wales has also risen by £391 since Labour came to power in 1997. The biggest rises have come in Monmouthshire where the average bill has risen by 127 per cent and Blaenau Gwent, up 111 per cent.

Bills are set to rocket even further next April as householders cope with the double whammy of the annual Council Tax increase and higher charges due to re-banding.

In a video presentation to the Conservative Party

conference in Bournemouth, traders and shoppers at Barry Market explained how they had been hit hard by Labour's tax rises.

The Welsh Conservatives' economic development

spokesman and Parliamentary candidate for the Vale of Glamorgan, Alun Cairns AM, said: "Since they came to power the Labour Party has launched an all-out assault on people's pockets.

"This increasingly greedy government has grabbed

people's hard-earned money through higher and higher taxes. The people of Wales should be under no illusion that Labour is planning third term tax rises.

"Ordinary, decent, hard working people like those

interviewed at Barry Market have been let down by

Labour.

"People are angry that despite the excessive levels of tax they are forced to pay, there has been seen no improvement in public services.

"Labour have robbed the rich and the poor. From

students to pensioners, Labour's taxes are hurting."

The Shadow Secretary of State for Wales Bill Wiggin MP said: "The people of Wales should be under no illusion that a third term Labour government will mean yet more taxes.

"We are all paying the price for Labour's cruel

deception that they would not raise tax at all. There will be worse to come if Labour wins again."

______________________________________________________

You can pick the bones out of it if you want. I speak as I find - this Government has raised taxes considerably.

[Kam]

This bloke has had trouble for a while apparently and he said to the copper 'I am thinking of putting up closed circuit TV cameras'. Again, this would be against the law apparently if they covered an area that extended any further than half way across the pavement. The bloke took it up with his Solicitor and the local council. The people at the council said that if he took pictures of people without their permission he would be breaking the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WTF.......

So we can't use CCTV without breaking data protection act, So what are the council's all over the UK doing watching us

more political correctness gone mad

Mrs Blair QC defends Muslim girl who wins battle to wear traditional dress in school

kam

[Marina]

WTF.......

So we can't use CCTV without breaking data protection act, So what are the council's all over the UK doing watching us

more political correctness gone mad

Mrs Blair QC defends Muslim girl who wins battle to wear traditional dress in school

kam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And, come to think of it, what about Speed Cameras and television cameras at sports events. If you think I am making it up, ring LBC in London and ask them.

[Kam]

That'll be over-the-counter opiates for all and the age of consent dropped to 13 ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wouldn't mind that, most of my favourite authors where off their tits, lewis Carroll et al

Victorian Values get my vote

Bring back the birch, debtors jail and Workhouses!!!!!

UK went down hill once we started following USA's over-capitalist views and prohibition laws, okay so underclass had gin problem and upper-classes had opiates. but still had morals and politeness.

kam

[Guest The dude]

And, come to think of it, what about Speed Cameras and television cameras at sports events. If you think I am making it up, ring LBC in London and ask them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Muslim girl wins battle to wear traditional dress in school"...

Do Muslim people WANT to integrate or not?....If they don't, why don't they investigate the idea of having their children educated in a Muslim country...

[ubuntu]

Integrate into what exactly? Chav culture? Hmm, no thanks!