dryrot Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Paul Holmewood's blog is an excellent climate-skeptical resource. This is his take on Government's ludicrous lies about EVs: https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2024/02/07/the-govts-version-of-ev-facts/#more-71631 Yesterday’s BBC article about the Lords bemoaning “misinformation” about EVs mentioned this govt website, which supposedly offers us the truth. In fact it is pure gaslighting, trying to convince people that the facts say something which they don’t: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electric-vehicles-costs-charging-and-infrastructure/electric-vehicles-costs-charging-and-infrastructure Let’s run through some of the Q & As: The harsh reality, of course, is that trade in prices are so low that buyers of new EVs now face massive depreciation costs. And the reason why second hand values have fallen so much is that nobody wants to buy one! . In short, a petrol model that costs £30,000 will now cost you £42000 for the electric version. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 21 minutes ago, staintunerider said: On 8 I don;t like quiet ...I want to be able to hear the thing coming 9) I've been curious about this yes been in one re incredible instant torque..... Back in the day a lot of stuff like 3.0 litre capris ended up in ditches because the lemon behind the wheel couldnt handle the power and with rear wheel drive too much would put you in a ditch literally....a lot of cars ended up like this... Now i know modern cars have traction control etc etc...but no amount of driver aids can make up for someone giving it too much welly at the wrong time and tyre loses grip with the road, off you slide...maybe just not backwards like with a 3.o litre capri who's back end would do a 90 or even 180 degree turn on you.. I wonder how many EV owners get carried away....i'm really not sure because from what i have seen most Tesla drivers seem to cruise about....maybe the typical EV owner isn;t the hooligan type... The Tesla i was in was a low end Tesla and the torque was astounding...so i'm sure the full fat 100k or what have you is something else again.... Most people won't floor a powerful car unless they are on a straight road. If they do then a ditch is a likely result. Traction control does help enormously. The clue is in the name. Most people run EVs in a more limited mode where there is less power and more range available. For example I run my hybrid normally in economy mode, where the acceleration is less but the range is greater. I have to actively switch to dynamic mode if I want more power, although it will switch to higher power if you floor it in an emergency. There is really no comparison to any modern car (ICE or EV) to a car built 50 years ago in terms of handling, safety, breaking, road grip etc. Car technology has improved hugely since the 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballyk Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Sour Mash said: Do you even understand how pivotal oil is to everything we do in the modern World? Even assuming we could magically meet all our electricity needs right now without any fossil fuels being burned to get it, we'd still be screwed without them. Do you think the windmills, solar panels and nuclear power stations could be built without fossil fuels being consumed in large amounts somewhere along the chain, for example. Yes, of course, oil is going to be an important source of energy for years to come. The idea of 'transition' is not that you stop using oil tomorrow, but that you move over time to another less polluting form of energy. Just as we are not all travelling by steam train or heating our houses with coal - although 100 years ago the same sorts of people would be saying we can't give up steam or coal, isn't smog great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ballyk said: A fad that government is mandating to be 100% of all car sales by 2035. Perhaps gov should just mandate 100% of all cars sales should be push bike sales by 2035? Your fetish for authoritarianism just to try and feel good about your choice of vehicle is worrying tbh. So anyone who doesn't agree with you should just have their freedom to choose taken away? What a fun person you must be... NOT! Alas just another downside to having an EV is being associated with people like you. Edited February 8 by Jean-Luc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, btd1981 said: The problem isn't the Rowan Atkinson article alone, but this constant anti-EV background noise almost certainly influenced by vested interests. I had a car fire just outside the house last year and all the neighbours asked me 'was it your electric car' over and over, I almost got a t-shirt made to answer. Turns out it was my petrol car, you know, the one which was full of highly volatile and flammable petrol in proximity to very hot surfaces, but you know... Of all the things that never happened... this never happened the most! How convenient for an EV zealot to have their petrol car catch fire and anyway wtf you doing with an ICE car anyway you naughty boy tut tut clearly not quite bought into the technology (EV) have you? 😉 Just everyone else that is to give up their ICE then eh? lol 😂 Edited February 8 by Jean-Luc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballyk Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 7 minutes ago, Jean-Luc said: Perhaps gov should just mandate 100% of all cars sales should be push bike sales by 2035? Your fetish for authoritarianism just to try and feel good about your choice of vehicle is worrying tbh. So anyone who doesn't agree with you should just have their freedom to choose taken away? What a fun person you must be... NOT! Alas just another downside to having an EV is being associated with people like you. Not just stupid, but also rude. 🤡 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Ballyk said: Not just stupid, but also rude. 🤡 If your beloved EV technology requires Gov to mandate it to get it off the ground then it is a failed technology that no one wants... simples. Anyone who agrees with huge Gov overreach is imho not a nice individual. You are here (presumably) because you do not agree with the housing market and Gov intervention to prop up the housing bubble (you don't believe HPI is right/fair) and yet here you are championing Government intervention in a market (EV's) to your advantage or because it is something you believe in. Hypocrite much? 🤡 Edited February 8 by Jean-Luc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btd1981 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 33 minutes ago, Jean-Luc said: Of all the things that never happened... this never happened the most! How convenient for an EV zealot to have their petrol car catch fire and anyway wtf you doing with an ICE car anyway you naughty boy tut tut clearly not quite bought into the technology (EV) have you? 😉 Just everyone else that is to give up their ICE then eh? lol 😂 Well, it did. We'd already replaced our old 250,000 mile Peugeot 207 with a Nissan Leaf (after it turns out modern garages can't do complicated tasks like head gaskets properly). After the 406 caught fire, it seemed like a logical step to get a better partnering EV to go with it because we like the Leaf so much. We still have the 207 for tip runs and what is left of the 406 coupe is a gate guardian until it can hopefully be repaired, but driving a petrol car now just feels like Victorian tech. An MG5 estate has almost the on-paper performance of my pyro 3.0 V6 coupe, but with one, long looooong gear. It's ace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btd1981 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 hours ago, Sour Mash said: Do you even understand how pivotal oil is to everything we do in the modern World? Even assuming we could magically meet all our electricity needs right now without any fossil fuels being burned to get it, we'd still be screwed without them. Do you think the windmills, solar panels and nuclear power stations could be built without fossil fuels being consumed in large amounts somewhere along the chain, for example. This is one of the best arguments you could have come up with to stop wasting a finite resource like oil on dirty and inefficient vehicle journeys when it has crucial uses elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staintunerider Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 38 minutes ago, btd1981 said: Well, it did. We'd already replaced our old 250,000 mile Peugeot 207 with a Nissan Leaf (after it turns out modern garages can't do complicated tasks like head gaskets properly). After the 406 caught fire, it seemed like a logical step to get a better partnering EV to go with it because we like the Leaf so much. We still have the 207 for tip runs and what is left of the 406 coupe is a gate guardian until it can hopefully be repaired, but driving a petrol car now just feels like Victorian tech. An MG5 estate has almost the on-paper performance of my pyro 3.0 V6 coupe, but with one, long looooong gear. It's ace. Yup took me a while to find a garage that could and would do a head gasket.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saving For a Space Ship Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 On 07/02/2024 at 12:38, The Angry Capitalist said: Hybrid batteries are different from full EV batteries. Prius hybrids use NIMH whereas most EVs use Lithium etc. Yes, I know, I was making the point that for 20+ years we have known that Ev / hybrid don't degrade much - ie starting from the old prius batteries You can't compare Porsche as a comparison to EVs. Porsche are a luxury car maker. I was comparing porsche battery replacement cost to other porsche model ice engine / gearbox replacement cost ICE cars are significantly cheaper and less risky from a financial perspective than EVs. depends which ones you are talking about, Ev's start from £2500 used on autotrader Ev's could be less risky in the longer term as so relaible compared to ice , 20 times less likely to catch fire than ICE . As there is so little mechanically to go wrong with ev's compared to ICe cars as motor has so few moving parts compared to ICE engine . ie no exhaust / gearbox and the battery degredation myth has been busted Even more so if you are looking for a used car and only want a small vehicle for use. plenty of small cheap ev's for sale from £2.5 k at link above EVs will not get mass adoption. No one has a crystal ball Arguably They already do have mass adoption at 14% of market in Uk, in Norway & iceland Ev's sales - As of October 2023, here's the market share of electric vehicles (EVs) in Norway and Iceland: Norway: 89%: Share of new car sales in 2022 that were fully electric vehicles (BEVs). This means nearly 9 out of 10 new cars sold in Norway were pure EVs, making it the global leader in EV adoption. 79%: Share of all new registrations (including PHEVs) in 2022 that were electric. Iceland: 56%: Share of new car sales in 2022 that were plug-in electric vehicles (both BEVs and PHEVs). This places Iceland second in the world behind Norway for EV market share. 85%: Share of private cars sold in the first half of 2023 that were plug-in electrics, highlighting the rapid growth in their popularity. If backward Uk drivers spent some of that free unearned money they got from hpi on Ev's and not Suv' / cross over wankpanzers oil addiction / fear of change, the Uk would be much nearer that . I see no reason why not eventually if they wake up and stop poisoning their kids with car fumes They are too expensive to manufacture and when the subsidies finally go away that will be even more obvious. They are getting cheaper, as Tesla prove with innovations like gigacasting "The cost of EV vehicle batteries has been dropping significantly in recent years, and the trend is expected to continue. Here's a summary: Recent Price Drops: 2023: Average lithium-ion battery pack prices fell 14% to a record low of $139/kWh. For EV-specific packs, the price dropped even further to $128/kWh. This represents a significant decline from earlier years, even after a temporary price increase in 2022. Projected Future Drops: Goldman Sachs predicts a 40% decrease in battery prices by 2025, reaching $99/kWh. This would be faster than their previous forecast and represents an 11% annual decline from 2023 to 2030." Building the infrastructure to cater to mass adoption is also not going to happen. It is happening, though could be faster . Most ev drivers charge at home or work, average uk drivers drive 30 -40 miles a day, many ev are 200 mile range, so dont need to charge that often . with increased home / biz solar & powerwalls this will be less strain on grid & public chargers . "The number of public EV charging points installed in the UK in the last year (between January 2023 and January 2024) depends on the source you choose, but both offer positive growth: Department for Transport (DfT): Reports 16,622 new installations, representing a 45% increase. According to this data, as of January 1st, 2024, there were 53,677 public EV charging devices in the UK. Zapmap: Reports 17,450 new installations, representing a 46% increase. By their data, there were 55,301 public charging points at the end of January 2024. Both sources show a significant increase in EV charging infrastructure within the UK." Britain can't even sort its sewage issue out just releasing it everywhere into the sea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Gud to see the supply of clowns is drying up because no one wants a 280 mile range clown car that needs to be plugged in each night. 🤡🤡🤡🤡 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Angry Capitalist Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 hours ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said: Gud to see the supply of clowns is drying up because no one wants a 280 mile range clown car that needs to be plugged in each night. 🤡🤡🤡🤡 The EV green loonies cannot see the writing on the wall, unfortunately. By the end of 2025 the green bubble will be popped. Hopefully, by that time we start allocating resources to more efficient means such as improving the efficiency of Internal Combustion engines as opposed to wasting cash on trying to make a major breakthrough in battery technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 What is it about EVs that makes people who clearly know nothing about them, and lack the ability to see which way the wind is blowing, feel the need to parrot what they have read in the Telegraph/Express? For 2024 What Car has picked a £40k Tesla Model 3 as its Executive Car of the Year beating a £56k Mercedes ICE into second place. So much for the price gap. The Model 3 is a class act its ability to beat petrol, diesel and hybrid rivals – not just electric ones – means it’s made our separate Large Electric Car category redundant From here on the gap is just going to get bigger with EVs contining to drop in price and improve in performance, as battery prices continue to decline even faster than Tony Seba's ("insane") predictions made over 10 yrs ago. CATL the world’s largest EV battery maker set to cut costs in half by mid 2024 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btd1981 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Just got my 2016 Leaf back from MOT today. No advisories again, it's never even had a single one. Only serviced twice since new, probably more than it needed as they only seem to do a visual check and change the cabin filter, which is easy DIY. Still on original brake pads and discs with imperceptible wear. 50,000 miles and full battery health indicated (which means between 85 and 100% capacity vs. new. Honestly, this EV ownership is so stressful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staintunerider Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 17 hours ago, The Angry Capitalist said: The EV green loonies cannot see the writing on the wall, unfortunately. By the end of 2025 the green bubble will be popped. Hopefully, by that time we start allocating resources to more efficient means such as improving the efficiency of Internal Combustion engines as opposed to wasting cash on trying to make a major breakthrough in battery technology. By the end of this decade the residuals will be shocking! Same for the uk real estate sector for buyers in the last 10 years or more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenYearToGetMyMoneyBack Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 To add some balance to the Rowan Atkinson argument, Robert Llewellyn (who played Kryten in Red Dwarf) is the biggest EVangellist ever and heavily involved with the Fully Charged show. I would consider an EV but my benchmark is being able to drive from Bournemouth to Stansted and back on one charge or their being a charger at half the parking spaces there. I also want physical heater controls and a spare wheel. Neither of those rules out an EV but currently rules out a Tesla. p.s. There are gripes about EVs that I think the Government could easily change at minor cost. e.g. make it law that every EV charger has to accept credit card payments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14stFlyer Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 2 hours ago, btd1981 said: Honestly, this EV ownership is so stressful! This is the bit that many of our HPC friends, and the media in general, have got so wrong. The concept that owning an electric car is more stressful than owning an ICE vehicle is for the birds. EVs are: Less stressful to drive as smoother and quieter. Less stressful to refuel /recharge as simply plug in at home (yes, kzb, I know I am lucky). Less stressful in upkeep as fewer things to go wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 On 08/02/2024 at 14:09, Sour Mash said: Yes - but does not fit the narrative so you are a far right extremist or something. Strangely Engineering never split into left wing or right wing, except for those designing and pressing car body panels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHorseWaits-NoMore Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 On 08/02/2024 at 13:12, clarkey said: I also think that claiming it to environmentally friendly is a bit like shuffling the deckchairs on the titanic. I.e. it takes x amount of energy to make plus the lithium batteries. We are still using electricity to run it provided by oil via power stations. May as well keep using petrol and diesel Yes, the environmental argument isn't convincing, when it takes over 3 years of driving an EV before the environmental benefits start to offset the original environmental cost of manufacture. To tackle planetary resource and waste management issue associated with 8 billion people, it would make far more sense to tackle the root cause and invest in birth control and population management (of the side effects of reduced future economic growth etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyh Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 On 08/02/2024 at 13:22, Jean-Luc said: EV's are a fad. They are a way for priviledged 🔔🔚s to virtue signal how 'clever' and 'green' they are or a way to avoid tax. Take away the incentives and the 🔔🔚s would not be numerous enough to keep the EV market going as all the data shows one simple fact... private buyers are not buying ev's this is fact no matter how much butt hurt it causes the fanbois. Still hats off to the EV zealots they really do put a lot of effort into defending their beloved EV's no matter how many facts/realities get in the way lol 😂 Yes they are. I bought 2 Tesla's. I wont need to by anymore until 2030ish. maybe longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btd1981 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, 14stFlyer said: This is the bit that many of our HPC friends, and the media in general, have got so wrong. The concept that owning an electric car is more stressful than owning an ICE vehicle is for the birds. EVs are: Less stressful to drive as smoother and quieter. Less stressful to refuel /recharge as simply plug in at home (yes, kzb, I know I am lucky). Less stressful in upkeep as fewer things to go wrong. And while going to collect the car I had to walk past a massive queue of cars and vans at the tail end of the morning commute, which brought home how filthy some can be: the air reeked with the sweet smell of diesel fumes. It's incredible so many people still think this is the preferred solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotblack42 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 2 hours ago, 14stFlyer said: This is the bit that many of our HPC friends, and the media in general, have got so wrong. The concept that owning an electric car is more stressful than owning an ICE vehicle is for the birds. EVs are: Less stressful to drive as smoother and quieter. Depends - Leaf is no quieter or smoother than Corolla Hybrid CVT & lacks radar cruise & automatic braking. Sometimes driving the Corolla feels eerily detached - just looking at situation, checking for hazards & steering. Less stressful to refuel /recharge as simply plug in at home (yes, kzb, I know I am lucky). We’re getting solar hopefully but it will still less convenient to remember to plug in a future PHEV or EV every few days, rather than fill up our Corolla Hybrid once every 2-3 weeks. Less stressful in upkeep as fewer things to go wrong. Very true. We plan to trade in the Corolla at c. 9 years old so when the niggles start it’s S.E.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saving For a Space Ship Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) This guy has a hobby of listing the Ev car bargains on Autotrader.. Edit: He makes some good points on ev's vs ICE cars here Quote ‘Electric cars could end up like Betamax’ Mike Rutherford @AutoExpress Mike Rutherford’s opinion has some partial merit, except referring to a Betamax moment clearly indicates he doesn’t understand market disruption. This is an iPhone/Smart phone moment. The motor manufacturing industry does not understand what it takes to make EVs profitably. A few manufacturers do and they’re taking the lead with pure BEV sales early on in the transition - the low part of the S curve incline. Some large incumbents will struggle to compete in the EV space as ICE becomes irrelevant next decade. They have a transverse S curve as ICE sales will start to decline - diesel sales are in that opposite S curve decline now. PHEV and HEV is the Betamax equivalent. Hydrogen is the perpetual non-starter and mass production of synthetic fuels is all but a pipe dream at this late stage. Also neglected are two salient points: 1. EVs have just left infancy vs ICE maturity and the same can be said for the charging infrastructure. And for this reason problems exist and gaps are obvious for companies offering solutions to fill. EVs are not yet normal enough for the media, general consensus for acceptance and normalisation. The price parity gap with ICE is getting very close now as battery manufacturing costs have declined below $100 per kWh and are on their way down to $50. When Nissan gave birth to the Leaf, battery costs were $1000 kWh. Additionally the ZEV mandate is pressuring manufacturers to price their EVs competitively or face colossal fines. 2. Norway has reached and exceeded that tipping point of normalcy with EVs. Their infrastructure is robust and ICE sales will be phased out in 2025. The U.K. is several years behind this point but the U.K. is not the centre of the world. Mass adoption is happening in other countries such as China and the U.S. with Australian sales taking off plus more. In summary, and whilst I have not covered all points, this is a transition not a test of technology. That moment passed last decade and EV sales are on an exponential growth curve. https://autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/362056/electric-cars-could-end-betamax… 1:40 pm · 22 Jan 2024 · 41.9K Views Edited February 10 by Saving For a Space Ship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saving For a Space Ship Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) Last week a House of Lords report criticised the media for spreading misinformation about EVs As if trying to prove their point, the media responded with a deluge of -ve EV articles https://twitter.com/colinwalker79/status/1757443513913127089 Quote The reality is between 60-70% of UK households have off-street parking Which means they can run their EVs for as little as 2p per mile, if using cheap night time charging tarrifs From es.catapult.org.uk Colin Walker @colinwalker79 · 15h Which brings me to theme 4 - "EVs will impoverish the middle classes!!" Erm, how? If the majority of the country can run their cars for as little as 2p per mile, while a petrol car can cost 15-20p per mile, I'm struggling to see how this impoverishment happens Colin Walker @colinwalker79 · 15h We've crunched the numbers, and the reality is that a new EV's total cost of ownership - its up front sticker price, fuel, tax, servicing and insurance - is much lower over the course of its lifetime than a petrol car's Colin Walker @colinwalker79 · 15h For example, over the course of their lifetimes, the top 10 selling EVs of 2023 will save their owners close to £18,000 each - that's almost £1,300 a year From eciu.net Colin Walker @colinwalker79 · 15h So rather than impoverishing their owners, EVs can save them an awful lot of money Yes, those savings are nowhere near as pronounced if you are one of the sizeable minority of people can't charge your car at home. And the Government really needs to act to address that. Colin Walker @colinwalker79 · 15h For example, by reducing VAT on public chargers from 20% to 5% (which is what people pay for their electricity at home) - as called for by @fairchargeuk From faircharge.co.uk Colin Walker @colinwalker79 · 15h Or remove the planning barriers that hold back creative enterprises like @kerbocharge from installing gullies with which people can safely run cables from their terraced houses to their EVs on the street And access cheap EV charging tarrifs kerbocharge.com EV Charging Cable Gully | Pavement Charging | Kerbo Charge Charge your EV at home with Kerbo Charge. Our safe and secure charging channel has a self-closing lid and is council approved. Colin Walker @colinwalker79 · 15h Next up, theme 5 - "EVs will collapse the grid!!" Well, if that's true, no one's told the @NationalGridESO - who seem very calm about any impact that the transition to EVs is going to have on the grid Show replies Edited February 14 by Saving For a Space Ship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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