Are Britain's planned 15-minute cities effectively 15-minute control grids?

[Bob8]

Just now, Mrs Doyle said:

You stated you've never visited Oxford yet here you are telling us all about specific scenarios from the yet to be implemented traffic filters (btw, which has nothing to do with 15 neighbourhoods). 

Can you give us details of where in Oxford particularly you see an issue with visiting Granny? 

He has similar expertise on pretty much every subject.

[Mrs Doyle]

11 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

He has similar expertise on pretty much every subject.

😂

[Mrs Doyle]

21 hours ago, kzb said:

I wasn't talking about Oxford.

But since you are, you seem to assume that everybody who has a job works in the town centre.

If you have two or more stores that you wish to visit, and they are in different zones, you can't do it.  Not without paying £70 or using up one of your precious 100 border crossings.

Another thing is, there are some quite sizeable communities now that don't have a bank, don't have a post office, and don't have a lot of things.  Everything has been centralised.  Are you going to pass a law which compels banks and other services to open a branch in each zone ?

I went to my bank yesterday also.  It had a sign up saying, closed due to staff sickness, but our colleagues at [6 miles away] will be happy to help.  The bus takes about 50 minutes to do that journey, each way, and before they brought in this temporary £2 fare it cost something like £3.60 each way also.  People don't have time for this.

 

 

More complete nonsense from you. 

Doubling down on ignorance isn't a good look.

If you're not careful you might end up with a monopoly on it. 

As has been told to you before, 15 min neighbourhoods have nothing to do with traffic filters and traffic filters only apply to one road and even then it's not 24 hours or a complete block as there are numerous exemptions. 

You are free to drive in and out of your area as many times as you wish. 

You appear to garner your knowledge from conspiracy nut job sites who, coincidentally, are making exactly the same factual errors you are. 

I think you have an overarching opinion and you invent facts to bolster that view. 

[Arpeggio]

6 hours ago, kzb said:

In the context of what I said, it is not relevant what its for.  Only that it exists.

What do you mean?

It's possibly more inconvenient for truck drivers but that's all.  It doesn't affect someone going to see granny like the Oxford scheme.

Sorry, I was just the illustrating the backwardness that you pointed out, with the contrast of what it is said to be for, even more so.

[kzb]

5 hours ago, Mrs Doyle said:

You stated you've never visited Oxford yet here you are telling us all about specific scenarios from the yet to be implemented traffic filters (btw, which has nothing to do with 15 neighbourhoods). 

Can you give us details of where in Oxford particularly you see an issue with visiting Granny? 

You're missing the context.  The Irish border would only possibly inconvenience some truck drivers.  People visiting granny on the other side of the border would not notice any difference.  People visiting granny in another zone in Oxford would be limited to 100 visits per year, so they would perceive a difference.

[kzb]

5 hours ago, Mrs Doyle said:

More complete nonsense from you. 

Doubling down on ignorance isn't a good look.

If you're not careful you might end up with a monopoly on it. 

As has been told to you before, 15 min neighbourhoods have nothing to do with traffic filters and traffic filters only apply to one road and even then it's not 24 hours or a complete block as there are numerous exemptions. 

You are free to drive in and out of your area as many times as you wish. 

You appear to garner your knowledge from conspiracy nut job sites who, coincidentally, are making exactly the same factual errors you are. 

I think you have an overarching opinion and you invent facts to bolster that view. 

So the news that you would be limited to 100 zone crossings per year is completely wrong then ?

[Mrs Doyle]

4 hours ago, kzb said:

So the news that you would be limited to 100 zone crossings per year is completely wrong then ?

Absolutely, yes.

From what you've said it's clear you've done no research and have believed what some crackpots have told you.

Educate yourself better then you might not soil yourself so often in public. 

It isn't news, it's a bunch of crackpots so wrapped up in their WEF New World Order conspiracy theories that they jumped on one ill researched or deliberately misrepresented article by another crackpot and took it as wrote. 

There are six proposed traffic filters operating from 7am to 7pm on four and 7-9am and 3-6pm on two. 

Take a good look at the map to see why what you're talking about is nonsense. 

https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/traffic-filters-2022/maps/map-of-traffic-filter-locations

Here is a list of exemptions. 

Other permits and restrictions

Permit type	Restrictions
Blue Badge holder	Up to a maximum of two nominated vehicles per blue badge holder at any one time.
Professional health and care workers	For operational journeys, not commuting
Non-professional carers	Anyone with informal caring responsibilities. Exempt from one traffic filter of the applicant’s choosing.
Patients receiving frequent hospital treatments	Exempt from one traffic filter of the applicant’s choosing for the duration of the treatment
People with short-term mobility problems	Short-term permit only.
Car club vehicles	Belonging to a qualifying car club open to the general public.

Automatic exemptions

The following vehicles will be exempt from the traffic filters and do not need to apply for a permit.

• Buses
• Coaches
• Taxis
• Private hire vehicles
• Mopeds
• Motorbikes
• Vans
• HGVs
• Emergency services and qualifying health service vehicles
• Disabled tax-class vehicles
• Minibuses
• Hearses
• Cars used as goods vehicles by businesses based in the Oxford permit area

Anyone else will get 100 permits per year up to three cars per household. 

Not one single person will be unable to leave their area any time they wish and as many times as they like as you would have seen from the map. 

All that will happen is that six strategically placed filters across a city of 155,000 people will help cut bus journey times to encourage their use. 

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/residents/roads-and-transport/connecting-oxfordshire/traffic-filters

Edited May 27, 2023 by Mrs Doyle
Edit

[kzb]

58 minutes ago, Mrs Doyle said:

Not one single person will be unable to leave their area any time they wish and as many times as they like as you would have seen from the map. 

Not true.  The problems I identified are real.  Except that visiting granny as a carer is permitted.  That means I need to register as a carer for that person.

The fact that they  are controlling movements is almost by definition inconveniencing those that are affected.

I still have not been told about the compulsory bank openings, compulsory post offices, or the state-owned stores that will be stationed in the zones.

[Mrs Doyle]

8 hours ago, kzb said:

Not true.  The problems I identified are real.  Except that visiting granny as a carer is permitted.  That means I need to register as a carer for that person.

The fact that they  are controlling movements is almost by definition inconveniencing those that are affected.

I still have not been told about the compulsory bank openings, compulsory post offices, or the state-owned stores that will be stationed in the zones.

Lol. 

It's you who needs a carer. 

Take a look at the map you absolute Muppet. 

You tell me which of the six traffic filters entirely cuts off any area and which area you believe it is? 

Either you were too lazy to read the links or you struggle to understand simple English. 

I'll give you a clue. 

From the link. 

Will Oxford residents be confined to their local area? 

No. The misinformation online has linked the traffic filters to the 15-minute neighbourhoods proposal in the city council’s Local Plan 2040, suggesting that the traffic filters will be used to confine people to their local area. This is not true. 

The 15-minute neighbourhoods proposal aims to ensure that every resident has all the essentials (shops, healthcare, parks) within a 15-minute walk of their home. They aim to support and add services, not restrict them. 

For the benefit of Oxford residents, what we are aiming to do is to ensure that areas of the city such as Barton, Blackbird Leys and Rose Hill have all the essential services that areas such as East Oxford and Jericho already have. 

Under the traffic filters, residents will still be able to drive to every part of the city at any time – but in the future, at the times when the filters are operating, you may need to take a different route (e.g. using the ring road) if you want to travel by car. 

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Mrs Doyle
Edit

[no_dependent4663]

51 minutes ago, Mrs Doyle said:

Lol. 

It's you who needs a carer. 

Take a look at the map you absolute Muppet. 

You tell me which of the six traffic filters entirely cuts off any area and which area you believe it is? 

Either you were too lazy to read the links or you struggle to understand simple English. 

I'll give you are clue. 

From the link. 

Will Oxford residents be confined to their local area? 

No. The misinformation online has linked the traffic filters to the 15-minute neighbourhoods proposal in the city council’s Local Plan 2040, suggesting that the traffic filters will be used to confine people to their local area. This is not true. 

The 15-minute neighbourhoods proposal aims to ensure that every resident has all the essentials (shops, healthcare, parks) within a 15-minute walk of their home. They aim to support and add services, not restrict them. 

For the benefit of Oxford residents, what we are aiming to do is to ensure that areas of the city such as Barton, Blackbird Leys and Rose Hill have all the essential services that areas such as East Oxford and Jericho already have. 

Under the traffic filters, residents will still be able to drive to every part of the city at any time – but in the future, at the times when the filters are operating, you may need to take a different route (e.g. using the ring road) if you want to travel by car. 

 

So mean men with automatic rifles won't be setting up a perimeter? The internet has lied to me again.

[Bob8]

It is another thread that would have been good, if people could take on teh key advice "Be less stupid".

[Mrs Doyle]

5 hours ago, no_dependent4663 said:

So mean men with automatic rifles won't be setting up a perimeter? The internet has lied to me again.

😂

[Mrs Doyle]

3 hours ago, Bob8 said:

It is another thread that would have been good, if people could take on teh key advice "Be less stupid".

👍

[14stFlyer]

On 5/26/2023 at 8:20 AM, The Angry Capitalist said:

The only way EVs supersede the ICE is if we have some revolutionary battery innovation which is nowhere on the horizon.

If that don't happen then bye bye EVs.

I take it from this that you are not an EV driver.  If you were, you would know that the technology is superior.  

[14stFlyer]

On 5/26/2023 at 8:17 AM, The Angry Capitalist said:

They are in traffic jams because they have to commute to work.

In a car.  If they used buses, trains, bikes, walking, there would be fewer traffic jams no?

one of the worst times for traffic jams in my town is when all the parents are in their cars driving their kids to school (in town), and commuters are driving to the station (in town) to catch the train to London. Utter madness. 

[The Angry Capitalist]

9 minutes ago, 14stFlyer said:

I take it from this that you are not an EV driver.  If you were, you would know that the technology is superior.  

Superior in what ways?

[The Angry Capitalist]

3 minutes ago, 14stFlyer said:

In a car.  If they used buses, trains, bikes, walking, there would be fewer traffic jams no?

one of the worst times for traffic jams in my town is when all the parents are in their cars driving their kids to school (in town), and commuters are driving to the station (in town) to catch the train to London. Utter madness. 

Might not be practical in a lot of cases.

Time constraints and cost.

All depends on many factors including distance from home to nearest train station or bus station etc. Frequency of trains and buses on their specific local route and cost in relation to distance from station to work.

If it's cheaper and quicker to use the car then people will choose that option.

[winkie]

9 minutes ago, 14stFlyer said:

In a car.  If they used buses, trains, bikes, walking, there would be fewer traffic jams no?

one of the worst times for traffic jams in my town is when all the parents are in their cars driving their kids to school (in town), and commuters are driving to the station (in town) to catch the train to London. Utter madness. 

Yes, work locally, walk.....madness to take the train?

Not everyone lives near a train station, not the busses to serve it.....who would want to cycle six or eight miles home when got off the train at 6.30pm?.......take more than 15 mins, add that twice a day to journey time......dark wet and cold winters you know.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

On 18/05/2023 at 12:25, Locke said:

Easiest, cheapest and most efficient way to achieve this would be to abolish planning permission.

The government intervention is the problem, not the idea itself.

It would to be on greenbelt or countryside sites, unless compulsory purchase was used to aid remodelling.

[kzb]

9 hours ago, Mrs Doyle said:

You tell me which of the six traffic filters entirely cuts off any area and which area you believe it is? 

Either you were too lazy to read the links or you struggle to understand simple English. 

I'll give you a clue. 

From the link. 

Then...

9 hours ago, Mrs Doyle said:

Under the traffic filters, residents will still be able to drive to every part of the city at any time – but in the future, at the times when the filters are operating, you may need to take a different route (e.g. using the ring road) if you want to travel by car. 

So I'm not a muppet, I am correct.  If you want to drive between zones you have to drive out of the city and back in again.  It tells us this in the very material you posted.  An extra 5 miles or so through an undoubtedly congested route.

I also take issue with this:

9 hours ago, Mrs Doyle said:

The 15-minute neighbourhoods proposal aims to ensure that every resident has all the essentials (shops, healthcare, parks) within a 15-minute walk of their home. They aim to support and add services, not restrict them. 

So how exactly is this going to happen in a free-market economy ?  You've not told us this yet.

I want to know how you are going to enforce the presence of banks, post offices, NHS dentists, GPs, and a competitive retail sector in each zone.  

What legal powers will the local council have to achieve this?  Does their authority come above that of the NHS, the banks and the big supermarkets ?

 

[kzb]

7 hours ago, Bob8 said:

It is another thread that would have been good, if people could take on teh key advice "Be less stupid".

I have to say you're right there Bob.

They need to know exactly how the council can ensure all the services are present in a free market economy.

They need to see the models which forecast how much congestion will fall or increase, and how their journey times will be affected.

They need to see how the situation will be monitored to ensure it is delivering the promises, and if it is not delivering how it will be dismantled.

That would be non-stupid would it not?  But will we see any of this ?  Don't hold your breath, because anyone who is non-stupid knows the purpose of this scheme is nothing like what they say.  They have no means of ensuring any services are present in any given area for one thing.

[steve99]

2 hours ago, 14stFlyer said:

In a car.  If they used buses, trains, bikes, walking, there would be fewer traffic jams no?

one of the worst times for traffic jams in my town is when all the parents are in their cars driving their kids to school (in town), and commuters are driving to the station (in town) to catch the train to London. Utter madness. 

In the very old days, when I was in primary school, busses ran every 5 or 10 minutes and that was in a far flung suburb  between Manchester and Wigan.  The buses were reliable and there few if any traffic jams, not even going into Manchester. This was on account of being zero school traffic, only half of everyone owning cars and affordable bus or train tickets vs today. This is what 15 minute cities will be about.   Recently I was in Tokyo which in a conurbation with Kawasaki, Chiba and Yokohama is one big mega city of about 25 million people.  The traffic flows much faster there than in London and most of the SE of England or other, even more so,  small UK cities like Oxford and Cambridge which can take an hour to travel 3 miles for eg. Less people have cars in Tokyo on account of having to pay the equivalent of about £120 per month to get a parking permit which are also limited by number. The trains are much faster, far more reliable and cheaper than the UK. It works and most people live in a 15 minute environment for most of the things they need.  The other city I sometimes visit is Vienna in Austria where everyone is within reach of what they need sans motor cars, 2 -5 minutes walk to a train tram or bus stop and all of them reliable and cheap, eg 30 euros a month for the whole city. London zone 5 where I used to live in now about £250 per month, ie 10x that of Vienna.  The Wetherspoon loons fighting 15 minute cites have only one fear and that is not being able to drive everywhere they want when they want. 

[Jean-Luc]

2 hours ago, steve99 said:

The Wetherspoon loons fighting 15 minute cites have only one fear and that is not being able to drive everywhere they want when they want. 

Why would I not fear being unable to drive where I want when I want? WTF is so loony about that?

Honestly whats with all the a*sewipes that have a fetish for ever more restrictions and ever bigger government controls?

You lot are the lunatics... govern me harder daddy indeed! Weirdos.

 

[Bob8]

18 minutes ago, daveyj said:

Why would I not fear being unable to drive where I want when I want? WTF is so loony about that?

Honestly whats with all the a*sewipes that have a fetish for ever more restrictions and ever bigger government controls?

You lot are the lunatics... govern me harder daddy indeed! Weirdos.

 

Whereas the road network grew organically from the soil?

Jeez, you are thick.

[Mrs Doyle]

4 hours ago, kzb said:

Then...

So I'm not a muppet, I am correct.  If you want to drive between zones you have to drive out of the city and back in again.  It tells us this in the very material you posted.  An extra 5 miles or so through an undoubtedly congested route.

 

Mrs Doyle

Posted 16 hours ago

  20 hours ago, kzb said:

So the news that you would be limited to 100 zone crossings per year is completely wrong then ?

Absolutely, yes

kzb

Posted 15 hours ago  

16hours ago, Mrs Doyle said:

Not one single person will be unable to leave their area any time they wish and as many times as they like as you would have seen from the map. 

Not true.  The problems I identified are real.  Except that visiting granny as a carer is permitted.  That means I need to register as a carer for that person.

-----------------------------------

Does your carer know you banged your head? 

Also, look at the bloody map and stop repeating the stupid idea it will take you a lot longer to travel to different parts of the city. 

You have literally been given all the information on a plate yet you've decided to go with the stupidity double down. 

You are either incredibly dense, incredibly obstinate, or incredibly indoctrinated or all three. 

Are you a reincarnation of that complete imbecile Insane?