Petrol prices hit all time highs.

[markyh]

58 minutes ago, winkie said:

Repair is not planned obsolescence...... obsolescence means it becomes useless, non repairable only good for the rubbish..... unsupported, unloved.

Not buying any EV, new or pre owned......no benefit whatsoever to me, a great up front expense with no advantages I can see.....please enlighten me.

When do you plan to stop driving? The youngest ICE in 2050 will be 20 years old. 

[NorthamptonBear]

1 hour ago, winkie said:

Repair is not planned obsolescence...... obsolescence means it becomes useless, non repairable only good for the rubbish..... unsupported, unloved.

Not buying any EV, new or pre owned......no benefit whatsoever to me, a great up front expense with no advantages I can see.....please enlighten me.

Repairing something engineered to last warranty plus a week or a few miles is planned obsolesce. Best illustrated with washing machines, a company's stats monkeys will work out a typical lifetime and the parts will be engineered to last not much longer. Older washing machines and dishwashers will keep working.

EV advantages - it's possible, likely that you'll say none of these interest you - but they might for others (few off the top of my head)

1. Defrost/preheat car - car might ask you if you want to defrost at this time every workday (if it detects a regular pattern), or you can use a scheduling function or your app when about to leave work or on the train. No ice scraping, defogging windscreens, leave car parks before colleagues snarl up local roads.
2. Fully charged every day if you have a charger at home. Cue arguments about 40% without who can use work, supermarkets, streets, rapid chargers every 7-14 days.
3. Performance, even modest EVs will probably win a 0-30 "traffic light race". Can be useful when there is a need to change lane. Certainly useful for safer overtaking
4. No gear changes (less wear and tear on tyres although FUD says more as heavier, it's the gear changes, even in an auto that wears tyres)
5. No kickdown, fumbling for or wrong gears when you need to overtake
6. Low fuel cost 
7. Low maintenance cost - especially brakes
8. No/lower need for services
9. Less brake wear
10. Low centre of gravity, excellent moose test and manoeuvrability, unlikely to flip or lose control
11. Less self-pollution leading to impaired thinking, impotence, Alzheimer's, asthma and other illnesses - your own ICE car will harm you - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/may/03/air-pollution-spikes-may-impair-older-mens-thinking-study-finds
12. Not polluting others - particularly in basin geographies - noticeable that worldwide and particularly in Northern Italy, covid deaths matched historical air pollution maps, two causes commonly stated were pre-existing harm to lungs, brains and other organs reducing ability to cope and also that viruses can be carried and ingested on small particulates
13. Higher availablity, as less likely to go wrong or need servicing
14. Extreme weather - up to 4 days heat when fully charged with no risk of asphyxiation or tailpipe being buried under drifting snow - in case of being stuck in snow or home electricity cut off like Texas or recently in UK, even tonight  (and for most people losing electricity also impacts gas or other heating). Note that garage fuel pumps rely on mains electricity - electricity out, petrol out. If you have solar + an isolator switch (standard on new Tesla Powerwall installs) - you can charge car. OR - plug in car and charge during intermittent supply during rolling blackouts.
15. Many EVs can ford or swim with less risk 
16.  

Edited February 17, 2022 by NorthamptonBear

[hughjass]

Theres still something we are not being told to do with these prices, it started with that shortage crisis that was more media scaremongering. Now itds because of economies reopening after the covid crisis/ Ukraine. Lets get back to last summer when it was about £1.20 a litre

[NorthamptonBear]

40 minutes ago, markyh said:

When do you plan to stop driving? The youngest ICE in 2050 will be 20 years old. 

Few ICE will be sold after 2026, only niche vehicles. Uneconomic or impractical to use after 2040 at latest (zero emission zones, cost). Anyone buying an expensive ICE now is gambling on resale prices not collapsing. Leasing transfers the financial risk to the lease company (often linked to maker, leading to headaches for them or lease-bond holders). Still doesn't help with zero emission zones and running costs.

[winkie]

24 minutes ago, NorthamptonBear said:

Repairing something engineered to last warranty plus a week or a few miles is planned obsolesce. Best illustrated with washing machines, a company's stats monkeys will work out a typical lifetime and the parts will be engineered to last not much longer. Older washing machines and dishwashers will keep working.

EV advantages - it's possible, likely that you'll say none of these interest you - but they might for others (few off the top of my head)

1. Defrost/preheat car - car might ask you if you want to defrost at this time every workday (if it detects a regular pattern), or you can use a scheduling function or your app when about to leave work or on the train. No ice scraping, defogging windscreens, leave car parks before colleagues snarl up local roads.
2. Fully charged every day if you have a charger at home. Cue arguments about 40% without who can use work, supermarkets, streets, rapid chargers every 7-14 days.
3. Performance, even modest EVs will probably win a 0-30 "traffic light race". Can be useful when there is a need to change lane. Certainly useful for safer overtaking
4. No gear changes (less wear and tear on tyres although FUD says more as heavier, it's the gear changes, even in an auto that wears tyres)
5. No kickdown, fumbling for or wrong gears when you need to overtake
6. Low fuel cost 
7. Low maintenance cost - especially brakes
8. No/lower need for services
9. Less brake wear
10. Low centre of gravity, excellent moose test and manoeuvrability, unlikely to flip or lose control
11. Less self-pollution leading to impaired thinking, impotence, Alzheimer's, asthma and other illnesses - your own ICE car will harm you - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/may/03/air-pollution-spikes-may-impair-older-mens-thinking-study-finds
12. Not polluting others - particularly in basin geographies - noticeable that worldwide and particularly in Northern Italy, covid deaths matched historical air pollution maps, two causes commonly stated were pre-existing harm to lungs, brains and other organs reducing ability to cope and also that viruses can be carried and ingested on small particulates
13. Higher availablity, as less likely to go wrong or need servicing
14. Extreme weather - up to 4 days heat when fully charged with no risk of asphyxiation or tailpipe being buried under drifting snow - in case of being stuck in snow or home electricity cut off like Texas or recently in UK, even tonight  (and for most people losing electricity also impacts gas or other heating). Note that garage fuel pumps rely on mains electricity - electricity out, petrol out. If you have solar + an isolator switch (standard on new Tesla Powerwall installs) - you can charge car. OR - plug in car and charge during intermittent supply during rolling blackouts.
15. Many EVs can ford or swim with less risk 
16.  

The last washing machine I bought was in fully working apart from one part that was not only intentionally soldered so could not be removed and repaired, no spare part available......the whole machine had to be dumped.....madness, waste of both energy, resources and another blight on waste and the cost of disposal.......right to repair.

Right to repair cars.......last car was over 17 years old, sold in fully working order with full service history......this one will drive it for as long as possible.

[winkie]

1 hour ago, markyh said:

Funny i wonder when the last state owned Public Petrol forecourt closed? Oh that's right, there never where any, they were all built and run privately for a profit. 

Yawn, same will happen with EV's.  Shell have already fully converted a old petrol station in Fulham to pure EV only, not a fuel pump in sight. 

 

Bully for them......my issue is not with private garages, it is with private companies taking ownership of public roads and charging the people to drive on them per mile.

[Lenelby]

An EV doesn’t suit me right now. I drive 2-3K a year. Mostly weekends and some longer road trips in the summer. I’ve nowhere to charge it.

It wouldn’t be cost effective to own one both financially or environmentally. I expect I’d give up owning a car before buying an EV based on my current needs.

Some of the EVs are like tanks. Must weigh 2 tons and use an enormous about of energy to build and run. Even renewable sources rely on fossil fuels. These are not a solution to the climate crisis but seem to be sold as if they are. 

[longgone]

2 hours ago, markyh said:

Dont doubt it, but ICE will always pay twice until they are 1% of the UK fleet. Then classic car owners with their 40 year old ice will buy Petrol @ 50p ltr. 

i don`t mind  no upfront payment required. 😉

[longgone]

1 hour ago, NorthamptonBear said:

Very unreliable to unreliable is still unreliable. I've seen quite a few brand new cars (expensive ones at that) broken down shortly after Reg changes.

Consumables - you can go a long way (some 400,000 km) on a single set of brake pads (saving a lot of labour cost) on an EV https://thedriven.io/2021/07/03/impossible-tesla-model-s-does-400000km-on-one-set-of-brake-pads/

Self-servicing has downsides. Fewer people can do it. Many cars are leased or require dealer servicing for warranty. Resale prices of nearly new secondhand cars will be affected if not serviced according by dealer to a schedule. Bangernomics is fine for some people, a minority I would guess.

I also think that some cars are very reliable and retain value (Toyota, Honda?) whereas others seem to have bad reputations for costs and reliability and resale prices sink like a stone (performance exec cars maybe).

https://www.raw2k.co.uk/news/are-bmws-expensive-to-maintain "Out of the top five slots available, BMW cars occupied three of them. The BMW 5 Series cost an average of £585 per year to maintain, while the BMW 1 Series came in at £518, followed by the BMW 3 Series at £486...

two key factors which affect the cost of BMW repair - the complexity of their design, and the proprietary nature of their parts. "

 

i have had many cars over the years and none have cost me any great expenditure. a Mercedes was the worst kept getting bent wheels and blown tyre walls. lambda sensors, air suspension faults. not expensive to fix but just annoying. got rid in the end. 

i do not service my car i have a service plan works out £200 per year on servicing. sometimes the mot is free. 

if a car is eu6 compliant which mine is even though its a 2013 car resale values are strong,  mine is about 11k private sale considering i paid 15k for it nearly 8 years ago. i think it is outstanding. 

 

 

[Confusion of VIs]

3 hours ago, skinnylattej said:

You don't live in a rural area!  I use the buses when I can, but for some destinations there is only one bus a week, from village to town in the morning, and back to the village in the late afternoon.

Some of the villages on the southern fringe of Exmoor have no buses at all!

Perhaps we will get some form of demand responsive public transport.

If they pull off autonomous driving it will change everything. Minibuses running a set  pre mapped route should be a very low hanging fruit and one that could reconnect lots of rural locations. 

 

[kzb]

3 hours ago, NorthamptonBear said:

Battery - https://insideevs.com/news/521840/tesla-semi-480-battery-analysis/ argues that "We estimate that the 500-mile pack will be approximately 875 kWh and 900 Volts DC. Total pack weight (not just cells) of 9243 pounds" or just under 4.2 tonnes for the long range (500 miles) version. That would equate to 2515 kg for a 300 mile version. I haven't crossed referenced that against expected cell weight as these are pack figures & guesses.

No idea what a gearbox weighs, must be very heavy duty, unneeded in most EVs, I wouldn't expect one in Tesla Semi, instead the three (?) motors will probably have slightly different gearing and attributes for different speeds.

Diesel/fluids - https://www.smart-trucking.com/weight-of-diesel-fuel/ suggests 3000lb is allowed for for diesel ie 1360kg. Then add some more for other fluids. USA though.

A typical fuel HGC tank size seems to be about 500L.  Diesel is less dense than water so 500kg is a generous allowance for the weight of fuel plus tank.  This will give a range of c. 700-800 miles fully laden.

Let's say the weight of the gearbox is about the same as three electric motors.  So the diesel has 1340kg engine + 500kg fuel tank = 1840kg and the Tesla has 4200kg battery.  The Tesla has 2360kg (2.36 tonnes) higher weight which will be subtracted from the maximum load it can carry (which has legal limit).

We'll just have to see if it gets the claimed range in the real world.  Do we even know if the range is for empty or fully laden?

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, winkie said:

Bully for them......my issue is not with private garages, it is with private companies taking ownership of public roads and charging the people to drive on them per mile.

If that happens it will be because the government needs a lot more cash, nothing to do with what is driving down the roads. The last opportunity to raise a huge amount of cash from selling off a public asset.    

[NorthamptonBear]

14 minutes ago, kzb said:

A typical fuel HGC tank size seems to be about 500L.  Diesel is less dense than water so 500kg is a generous allowance for the weight of fuel plus tank.  This will give a range of c. 700-800 miles fully laden.

Let's say the weight of the gearbox is about the same as three electric motors.  So the diesel has 1340kg engine + 500kg fuel tank = 1840kg and the Tesla has 4200kg battery.  The Tesla has 2360kg (2.36 tonnes) higher weight which will be subtracted from the maximum load it can carry (which has legal limit).

We'll just have to see if it gets the claimed range in the real world.  Do we even know if the range is for empty or fully laden?

Fully laden. The Semi is more streamlined and the rest of the tractor unit will be lighter than an equivalent diesel HGV, helped by cells and glue forming a strong structure (4680s are cooled top and bottom).

The difference in diesel volumes may be UK vs USA HGVs. Google not being very helpful with the results of searching.

[NorthamptonBear]

17 hours ago, Lenelby said:

An EV doesn’t suit me right now. I drive 2-3K a year. Mostly weekends and some longer road trips in the summer. I’ve nowhere to charge it.

It wouldn’t be cost effective to own one both financially or environmentally. I expect I’d give up owning a car before buying an EV based on my current needs.

Some of the EVs are like tanks. Must weigh 2 tons and use an enormous about of energy to build and run. Even renewable sources rely on fossil fuels. These are not a solution to the climate crisis but seem to be sold as if they are. 

Google search - kerb weights - similar. Model 3 might lose 300 kg  when megacastings are used. [Edit:300 kg for GIGAcastings and structural 4680 battery pack - was in rush when posting. Estimated difference in weight between Fremont and Texas Model Y]

BMW 3 series: 1,520 to 1,955 kg
Tesla Model 3: 1,726 to 1,847 kg

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by NorthamptonBear

[kzb]

6 minutes ago, NorthamptonBear said:

Fully laden. The Semi is more streamlined and the rest of the tractor unit will be lighter than an equivalent diesel HGV, helped by cells and glue forming a strong structure (4680s are cooled top and bottom).

The difference in diesel volumes may be UK vs USA HGVs. Google not being very helpful with the results of searching.

From looking at some forums there might be a limit of 999 litres fuel carried.  But then there are truckers who fit extra tanks and have 1500 litres total.  There are lower limits if you want to go between European countries without hassle.

[Confusion of VIs]

3 hours ago, winkie said:

The last washing machine I bought was in fully working apart from one part that was not only intentionally soldered so could not be removed and repaired, no spare part available......the whole machine had to be dumped.....madness, waste of both energy, resources and another blight on waste and the cost of disposal.......right to repair.

Right to repair cars.......last car was over 17 years old, sold in fully working order with full service history......this one will drive it for as long as possible.

Hard to say if it is madness without looking into the costs of repair v replacement over the longer term. I recently replaced a working tumble dryer because it used 3 times as much electricity as a new A+ one. At today's electricity prices the cost of the new one will be recovered in under 4yrs, I could probably have got £30-50 for the old one but dumped it rather than pass an expensive problem onto someone else.   

The right to repair debate is interesting but nowhere near as clear cut as its proponents make out. Many engineers see it as a distraction from making zero defect products, their preferred approach being design/build it right and then seal it.  

[Confusion of VIs]

5 hours ago, winkie said:

Repair is not planned obsolescence...... obsolescence means it becomes useless, non repairable only good for the rubbish..... unsupported, unloved.

Not buying any EV, new or pre owned......no benefit whatsoever to me, a great up front expense with no advantages I can see.....please enlighten me.

Most repairs/maintenance is planned obsolescence, Ford makes almost all its profits from maintenance and spares so no incentive to reduce either.

Tesla had an incentive to include all of its safety aids as standard because they reduced the number of accidents their cars are involved in by 50%, so reduced the need to build a network of service/repair centres. Ford has no such incentive as  they have a large dealer network, that like Ford itself relies on service/repair work to make a profit.  

The main benefit of EVs for me is that they are better to drive, all the rest, lower fuel costs, maintenance free, cleaner, safer etc. is just a bonus.   

[GregBowman]

7 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Most repairs/maintenance is planned obsolescence, Ford makes almost all its profits from maintenance and spares so no incentive to reduce either.

Tesla had an incentive to include all of its safety aids as standard because they reduced the number of accidents their cars are involved in by 50%, so reduced the need to build a network of service/repair centres. Ford has no such incentive as  they have a large dealer network, that like Ford itself relies on service/repair work to make a profit.  

The main benefit of EVs for me is that they are better to drive, all the rest, lower fuel costs, maintenance free, cleaner, safer etc. is just a bonus.   

I love my i3s real little go kart personally I would say it’s different to drive not better, the more visceral nature of a premium performance car is an equal pleasure. However without a doubt EV’s are much nicer to drive than hum drum volume market cars.

The cheaper costs are part of it to me , I don’t want to spend any more than I have to on a daily travel pod. This frees up Money for a Sunday car with a V8 bit of a carbon offset 😉

[markyh]

11 hours ago, hughjass said:

Theres still something we are not being told to do with these prices, it started with that shortage crisis that was more media scaremongering. Now itds because of economies reopening after the covid crisis/ Ukraine. Lets get back to last summer when it was about £1.20 a litre

Wont happen. You have more chance of it being £2.20 ltr in the next 2 years than £1.20.  Every EV that hits the road every month now slowly reduces your ICE fuel economies of scale. Your prices are only going up as your fixed costs are static, being divided by less and less sales monthly. 

[bodgittandscarper]

13 minutes ago, markyh said:

Wont happen. You have more chance of it being £2.20 ltr in the next 2 years than £1.20.  Every EV that hits the road every month now slowly reduces your ICE fuel economies of scale. Your prices are only going up as your fixed costs are static, being divided by less and less sales monthly. 

That's rubbish. Diesel prices are a combination of the global oil price and the tax the government adds. Nothing whatsoever to do with economies of scale at the pumps. As we saw at the start of Covid, the oil futures market and global events have way more of an effect on the price of oil than anything that happens in the UK. I was filling heating red diesel tanks at 35 pence per litre because a bunch of traders got caught out without hedging their futures bets sufficiently. Sounds familiar? Gas prices recently!

When was the last time you saw a special offer for petrol? The only 'competition' between retailers comes from supermarkets stocking the worst grades that industry won't use, and offering you 5p per litre off if you buy their overpriced groceries.

[PeanutButter]

 

[markyh]

36 minutes ago, bodgittandscarper said:

That's rubbish. Diesel prices are a combination of the global oil price and the tax the government adds. Nothing whatsoever to do with economies of scale at the pumps. As we saw at the start of Covid, the oil futures market and global events have way more of an effect on the price of oil than anything that happens in the UK. I was filling heating red diesel tanks at 35 pence per litre because a bunch of traders got caught out without hedging their futures bets sufficiently. Sounds familiar? Gas prices recently!

When was the last time you saw a special offer for petrol? The only 'competition' between retailers comes from supermarkets stocking the worst grades that industry won't use, and offering you 5p per litre off if you buy their overpriced groceries.

Really , You believe this?  Tell me, if every employee in the fuel refining and retailing industry suddenly got wages increased overnight to £100k , within a week your price per litre would not go up?  As fixed costs have no baring on the pump price? 

Name me one thing that lost economies of scale and went down in price? 

[markyh]

33 minutes ago, PeanutButter said:

 

They made an error, they forgot to list EV's.  They will probably correct it soon. 

[Confusion of VIs]

3 hours ago, GregBowman said:

I love my i3s real little go kart personally I would say it’s different to drive not better, the more visceral nature of a premium performance car is an equal pleasure. However without a doubt EV’s are much nicer to drive than hum drum volume market cars.

The cheaper costs are part of it to me , I don’t want to spend any more than I have to on a daily travel pod. This frees up Money for a Sunday car with a V8 bit of a carbon offset 😉

I liked our i3 around town but apart from the first 50m it wasn't a competitor for any performance car. On the other hand my Model S Performance made my V10 M5 seem so underpowered I gave up on the idea of keeping it as Sunday car and sold it.  As for costs the difference is huge, BMW 9mpg and an average £2k per year in maintenance and repairs v the Tesla with no routine maintenance and almost free fuel (solar panels), depreciation is also very low around 10% in almost 3yrs and prices seem to be going up as the waiting list for a new S is over 1yr.  

 

[Riedquat]

17 hours ago, skinnylattej said:

Can't use concrete, too much CO2 emitted in concrete production!

Well I'll be up for not using concrete, just about everything made out of it looks shite.