Will we go into Tier 5 30/12/2020

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

 

Yep. The only thing more annoying in this than the rule and mask obsessed are the anti-vaxxers.

Do you wear a mask? Will you get vaccinated? 

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

 

That's the truth, we actually have the medical staff available in the UK to staff the nightingales, the problem is will and pay.

The army has plenty of medical staff and TA medical staff, there are plenty of nursing and medical staff also out of practice.

Let's be honest for years now the Conservatives have under funded the NHS and public sector pay, many of these staff have left the profession.

In my family there are 5 qualified nurses and only one is in direct nursing practice. Granted 2 are retired, but if the terms were attractive enough they'd probably go in.

The problem is pay and working conditions, however this government rather pay more furlough, bounce back loans and the like then pay these workers properly. Those our of practice rather do a sales job or semi-skilled trade jobs.

So I say, we should just let it rip and let us all get on with it. Herd immunity.

How's Sweden bro?

[Speed1987]

Hold on, @Arpeggio has highlighted strong points, why the bitter responses?

Their points are not tin hat foil stuff, paradoxically, the majority of HPCers have been dancing around fires awaiting a HPC for the past year. I told you so.... 😂😂

Tbh, most of the evidence presented by Arpeggio highlight theories and facts around the possible side effects and outcomes and the majority are within evdienced based sources such as Wiley etc...

It's true that these vaccines are new technology, we do not know long term, what damage they may do. Let me repeat that, THEY ARE NEW TECHNOLOGY.

You may also find, that they provide little or no benefit, just because your immune to somthing doesn't mean you cannot catch it. Survival rate it already at 99.8%. Unfortunately, the vulnerable will still probably die,  unless other protective measures are put in place.

 

[Speed1987]

 

How's Sweden bro?

There doing fine, much better than we are. Still doing better deaths per population.

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

 

There doing fine, much better than we are. Still doing better deaths per population.

Well we do have a whole lot of bed-wetters in the Uk who cannot follow the simplest guidelines. I assume that you are wearing your mask and ready to get vaccinated. 

[Speed1987]

 

Well we do have a whole lot of bed-wetters in the Uk who cannot follow the simplest guidelines. I assume that you are wearing your mask and ready to get vaccinated. 

🤣, I'll pass on the vaccine, thank you. Being mid 30s, healthy, low BMI and a gym freak, ill let mother nature take its course.

Will you be jumping the queue?

Edited December 31, 2020 by Speed1987

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

 

🤣, I'll pass on the vaccine, thank you. Being mid 30s, healthy, low BMI and a gym freak, ill let mother nature take its course.

Even if it precents asymptomatic transmission? And I asked you about your mask wearing which I note you ignored. 

[Speed1987]

 

Even if it precents asymptomatic transmission? And I asked you about your mask wearing which I note you ignored. 

Sorry, why do I need to explain my life to you? Secondly what relevance does me wearing a mask have, to this thread? 

I've complied with guidelines and I won't be taking the vaccine under any circumstances. If people are concerned or vulnerable, they can take the vaccine themselves, I wish them all the best. 

Don't you feel taking a vaccine, which hasn't been throughly tested and is a new type of technology, is risky? Particularly for people like myself, when I'm fit and healthy.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Speed1987

[Arpeggio]

Just make sure if you do go on a date during lockdown that she's not from Tier 6.

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

 

Sorry, why do I need to explain my life to you? Secondly what relevance does me wearing a mask have, to this thread? 

I've complied with guidelines and I won't be taking the vaccine under any circumstances. If people are concerned or vulnerable, they can take the vaccine themselves, I wish them all the best. 

Don't you feel taking a vaccine, which hasn't been throughly tested and is a new type of technology, is risky? Particularly for people like myself, when I'm fit and healthy.

Okay let me ask a different question do you believe that anti-maskers have blood on their hands as infered by this this emergency doctor working all hours trying to save as many covid victims as possible?

You'll agree that as a frontline worker he has a strong argument. No?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55479018

Oh and it's VERY relevant, because the more people that follow the guidelines the less likelyhood of an area dropping into Tier 5. Can't believe that needed explained but here we are.

As for the vaccine, I asked you that if you knew it prevented asymptomatic transmission would you still not take it. 

Simple questions, easy to answer. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by MonsieurCopperCrutch

[Arpeggio]

 

Okay let me ask a different question do you believe that anti-maskers have blood on their hands as infered by this this emergency doctor working all hours trying to save as many covid victims as possible?

You'll agree that as a frontline worker he has a strong argument. No?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55479018

He has a point.

We should ban smoking outright for everyone in all and every circumstance.

Punish obese people who do not lose weight within a reasonable amount of time (one of the main factors behind admissions).

Have an outright ban on all foods and ingredients that contribute to ill health, such as aspartame, certain fats and processed food.

Start using treatments that have been proven successful such as HCQ.

If this is a serious pandemic, the people that don't respect that or comply with the above are extremely selfish and inconsiderate of others. For one reason among many being that a weak immune system and higher viral load upon infection makes you more likely to infect others and I'm not talking about asymptomatic here, symptomatic, for which there is no argument that it is worse.

We already punish people who don't wear masks so there is no reason not to punish people for not doing the things the objectively and unarguably DO make a difference.

If these selfish bed wetters don't do this we will be continue to be sedentary and continue getting fatter in more lockdowns in order to stop needing lockdowns while comparing it to WW2.

If this was WW2 I'd ask you stay in the bunker and stay the f*ck away form my fox hole you wet pile of sick. Now go kiss a girl.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Arpeggio

[Riedquat]

 

Do you wear a mask? Will you get vaccinated? 

I wear a mask where legally obliged to do so, even though I think some, but not all, is OTT. I'll get vaccinated whenever it comes up (I'm not in an at risk group).

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

 

I wear a mask where legally obliged to do so, even though I think some, but not all, is OTT. I'll get vaccinated whenever it comes up (I'm not in an at risk group).

I thank you. By following the guidelines and accepting a vaccination you are doing the best you can for everyone. I appreciate that. 

[hotblack42]

Sigh. Another thread polluted by anti vaccination, anti lockdown propaganda 'backed up' by fake news sources.  The assertions that the UK death toll is lower than normal, or no higher, are a pitiful attempt to justify "freedoms" and "individualism".  It could be that we had been heading for record low deaths in 2020 & the Covid-19 toll is actually far worse than we yet know.

Imagine this 1941 headline:

Death toll down

With this subtext:

Health chiefs hail  big drops in cardiovascular disease & tuberculosis more than offsetting the numbers men, women and children killed in the blitz.

These odious anti bloody everything I don't want to do posts insult the hundreds of thousands grieving, and millions of health & care workers & frankly almost everyone else trying to navigate the pandemic.

Tip for those looking for useful information in these threads: scroll through a few pages and you'll quickly identify over-frequent, swivel eyed posters who get aggressive when called out. Going quiet when events don't fit their narrative, and complete lack of acknowledgement of contra evidence, or claiming it is fake, are other tell tale signs.

Ignore is your friend.  If there are 2 loonies arguing it can condense a thread dramatically.

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

 

Sigh. Another thread polluted by anti vaccination, anti lockdown propaganda 'backed up' by fake news sources.  The assertions that the UK death toll is lower than normal, or no higher, are a pitiful attempt to justify "freedoms" and "individualism".  It could be that we had been heading for record low deaths in 2020 & the Covid-19 toll is actually far worse than we yet know.

Imagine this 1941 headline:

Death toll down

With this subtext:

Health chiefs hail  big drops in cardiovascular disease & tuberculosis more than offsetting the numbers men, women and children killed in the blitz.

These odious anti bloody everything I don't want to do posts insult the hundreds of thousands grieving, and millions of health & care workers & frankly almost everyone else trying to navigate the pandemic.

Tip for those looking for useful information in these threads: scroll through a few pages and you'll quickly identify over-frequent, swivel eyed posters who get aggressive when called out. Going quiet when events don't fit their narrative, and complete lack of acknowledgement of contra evidence, or claiming it is fake, are other tell tale signs.

Ignore is your friend.  If there are 2 loonies arguing it can condense a thread dramatically.

Well said. Just yesterday I posted an interview from an A&E doctor angry with the death he is seeing and calling out the peoples lack of following the guidelines as the cause of all this unnecessary death. And yet STILL we have anti-mask bed-wetters refusing to follow guidelines. This country is an absolute disgrace because of this selfish scum. 

[hotblack42]

 

Well said. Just yesterday I posted an interview from an A&E doctor angry with the death he is seeing and calling out the peoples lack of following the guidelines as the cause of all this unnecessary death. And yet STILL we have anti-mask bed-wetters refusing to follow guidelines. This country is an absolute disgrace because of this selfish scum. 

Thanks.  I  was conscious that my post was quite aggressive but the key difference is that I am fine with conceding good points in opposition, & understand that people have other worries & points if view.  I have backtracked in discussions & learned from opposing, validated evidence.  The anonymity on forums permits reckless, objectionable posting - but we don't have to do things just because we can...🙂

[Speed1987]

 

Well said. Just yesterday I posted an interview from an A&E doctor angry with the death he is seeing and calling out the peoples lack of following the guidelines as the cause of all this unnecessary death. And yet STILL we have anti-mask bed-wetters refusing to follow guidelines. This country is an absolute disgrace because of this selfish scum. 

Are you living in the real world?

How do you propose we control this virus, even Sage has stated with the New so called variant, even a lockdown probably won't stop it. Which is really just a cover up, to say we are still going for herd immunity, we let you out of lockdown and now the cases numbers have rocketed, its not our fault, its the new variant.

Why do you think that is, while you reval in a doctor becoming upset with his workload. Stop being so emotional. Maybe you should step back and observe what has actually happened over the past year. 

Our government, willing allowed the spread of the virus within our country, as they knew it couldn't be stopped. However if the government were really concerned, you would of stopped all travel, dead. Do you feel our governments response has been adequate in any form? Can you imagine a war scenario, where we sit and wait for the enemies army to land on our shores before we take action. I laugh, at the pitiful effort of our government, there interventions are only to prevent you from becoming so hysterical, that you kill them in cold blood.

Wasn't it our own scientists arguing that masks are ineffective? Secondly, air travels around rooms, how do you propose we stop that? Who are you or anyone else to tell people how yo live their lives. 

The truth is we are still going for herd immunity and the scientists have already stated, they have no idea whether the vaccine will prevent transmission and prevent death, in high risk groups. Secondly, the scale size simply wasn't large enough and was carried out over the summer....

Hoping or praying, that it will achieve the desired outcome, doesn't make it so.

Having an opinion and evidence which suggests this vaccine is risky does not make a person a anti-vaxxer, its called being analytical. 

[Speed1987]

Also you may want to consider some of the evidence @Arpeggio has presented...

ADE is a real risk... ignore it at your own peril. 

 

[nightowl]

 

Thanks.  I  was conscious that my post was quite aggressive but the key difference is that I am fine with conceding good points in opposition, & understand that people have other worries & points if view.  I have backtracked in discussions & learned from opposing, validated evidence.  The anonymity on forums permits reckless, objectionable posting - but we don't have to do things just because we can...🙂

In general real life people do seem tenser and more agitated this winter especially in supermarkets oddly.not that surprising either.

But where you have people say out walking their dogs by the river and enjoying the only simple pleasures of life left, they do seem the total opposite.  

Im ignoring the usual news channels now but still follow the data from ONS to keep tabs on things though to keep myself sane when I come here!

[captainb]

 

Are you living in the real world?

How do you propose we control this virus, even Sage has stated with the New so called variant, even a lockdown probably won't stop it. Which is really just a cover up, to say we are still going for herd immunity, we let you out of lockdown and now the cases numbers have rocketed, its not our fault, its the new variant.

Why do you think that is, while you reval in a doctor becoming upset with his workload. Stop being so emotional. Maybe you should step back and observe what has actually happened over the past year. 

Our government, willing allowed the spread of the virus within our country, as they knew it couldn't be stopped. However if the government were really concerned, you would of stopped all travel, dead. Do you feel our governments response has been adequate in any form? Can you imagine a war scenario, where we sit and wait for the enemies army to land on our shores before we take action. I laugh, at the pitiful effort of our government, there interventions are only to prevent you from becoming so hysterical, that you kill them in cold blood.

Wasn't it our own scientists arguing that masks are ineffective? Secondly, air travels around rooms, how do you propose we stop that? Who are you or anyone else to tell people how yo live their lives. 

The truth is we are still going for herd immunity and the scientists have already stated, they have no idea whether the vaccine will prevent transmission and prevent death, in high risk groups. Secondly, the scale size simply wasn't large enough and was carried out over the summer....

Hoping or praying, that it will achieve the desired outcome, doesn't make it so.

Having an opinion and evidence which suggests this vaccine is risky does not make a person a anti-vaxxer, its called being analytical. 

A third of people in the Pfizer trial were over 65. The idea they were all medical students is anti vax nonsense. 

Yes, they didn't take someone 89 with stage 3 cancer on a vax trial.. Is that observed symptom vaccine or the myriad of cancer treatments they are on..? 

To infer that "have no idea" if it reduces hospitalisations is nonsense. If you are on a mad cocktail of drugs that impact the immune system or suffer allergic reactions to its contents its been well published to be careful. Aside from those scenarios if your 65 plus the risk reward is massively skewed in taking the vaccine and those spreading items they themselves know are false need to consider who they are as people. 

[zugzwang]

 

There doing fine, much better than we are. Still doing better deaths per population.

The Swedish healthcare system is now overwhelmed with Covid infections.

8813 reported deaths to date is not 'doing fine'.

Swedish Covid mortality is currently ~900/million vs ~1000/million for USUK. Among the highest in the world despite the belated introduction of local lockdown measures.

[Speed1987]

 

A third of people in the Pfizer trial were over 65. The idea they were all medical students is anti vax nonsense. 

Yes, they didn't take someone 89 with stage 3 cancer on a vax trial.. Is that observed symptom vaccine or the myriad of cancer treatments they are on..? 

To infer that "have no idea" if it reduces hospitalisations is nonsense. If you are on a mad cocktail of drugs that impact the immune system or suffer allergic reactions to its contents its been well published to be careful. Aside from those scenarios if your 65 plus the risk reward is massively skewed in taking the vaccine and those spreading items they themselves know are false need to consider who they are as people. 

I don't disagree that the vaccine would be beneficial, for those in high risk categories if it's effective and has no other implications.

I hope as you do that, they find somthing highly effective and prevent as many deaths as possible.

However I won't tolerate limitations on my freedom long term and I've already given over a chunk of time to this. I do see herd immunity as the feasible and sensible option.

That said, testing only say 30k people, without actually challenging them with the virus, we'll doesn't appear very reliable.

For example in Moderna trial, having around 30k participants and 95 showing infection within the placebo group and 5 in the vaccine group. Does not show 95% efficency... 

What it also showed is that of thr 15k people in the placebo group, placebo was effective is preventing infection in all but 0.63% of candidates. Does that make placebo effective in the other 99% of those who received it.

Im sorry but this is a gamble and putting it any other way... well.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Speed1987

[MARTINX9]

 

The Swedish healthcare system is now overwhelmed with Covid infections.

8813 reported deaths to date is not 'doing fine'.

Swedish Covid mortality is currently ~900/million vs ~1000/million for USUK. Among the highest in the world despite the belated introduction of local lockdown measures.

And 12 other nations in Europe which had tough lockdowns from Belgium to Czechia to Italy to Spain to Belgium (and us) and enforced strict mask wearing have higher death rates per capita than Sweden. And Peru which practised the toughest lockdown in the Americas starting in March with strict curfews has the second highest death toll per capita in the world.

All that is being observed is that if lockdowns and mask wearing were guaranteed to reduce death rates surely Sweden would rank top in Europe not 13th. And Peru would not have the highest death rate per capita outside Europe.

So isn't it possibly the case that things are just a bit more complicated than you suggest?

In Sweden a hugely disproportionate share of deaths have been in the Somali community - they accounted for 40% of deaths in the Stockholm region in the early days of the pandemic despite accounting for barely 1% of the population. Might the arguments about differential vitamin D natural production in cold northern European climates have been a factor there?

Sometimes looking at comparative data can be quite illuminating - because its never that simple.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

Edited January 1, 2021 by MARTINX9

[captainb]

 

I don't disagree that the vaccine would be beneficial, for those in high risk categories if it's effective and has no other implications.

I hope as you do that, they find somthing highly effective and prevent as many deaths as possible.

However I won't tolerate limitations on my freedom long term and I've already given over a chunk of time to this. I do see herd immunity as the feasible and sensible option.

That said, testing only say 30k people, without actually challenging them with the virus, we'll doesn't appear very reliable.

For example in Moderna trial, having around 30k participants and 95 showing infection within the placebo group and 5 in the vaccine group. Does not show 95% efficency... 

What it also showed is that of thr 15k people in the placebo group, placebo was effective is preventing infection in all but 0.63% of candidates. Does that make placebo effective in the other 99% of those who received it.

Im sorry but this is a gamble and putting it any other way... well.

 

 

Your logic is way off there. 

In the placebo group in an unchallenged trial not everyone had covid exposure in 3 months. If they did then thjs whole thing would have been over in 3 months as everyone would have been exposed to covid and moved on. Looking at serology over a year its looking at sub 10% overall for the UK. Maybe above in SE now and that's with a pretty high infection rate over the last 4 months when the trail had already finished. 

The placebo percentage is merely those that got disease in the environment it didn't reduce anything. The trial group percentsge compared to this shows the reduction though the change in having in this case a vaccine.

Some argument that people who volunteer for trials tend to be more conscious than average population thus would get a lower case count. I.e 22 year olds who don't give a monkeys and hold massive parties are less likely to volunteer than a well to do 40 year old who wants to help out. 

That being said as it's a blind trial the comparison between placebo and not is still fair as both have the same potential bias in them. 

[Sour Mash]

 

Hold on, @Arpeggio has highlighted strong points, why the bitter responses?

Their points are not tin hat foil stuff, paradoxically, the majority of HPCers have been dancing around fires awaiting a HPC for the past year. I told you so.... 😂😂

Tbh, most of the evidence presented by Arpeggio highlight theories and facts around the possible side effects and outcomes and the majority are within evdienced based sources such as Wiley etc...

It's true that these vaccines are new technology, we do not know long term, what damage they may do. Let me repeat that, THEY ARE NEW TECHNOLOGY.

You may also find, that they provide little or no benefit, just because your immune to somthing doesn't mean you cannot catch it. Survival rate it already at 99.8%. Unfortunately, the vulnerable will still probably die,  unless other protective measures are put in place.

 

 

The pro-lockdowners don't bother with tricky things like actually constructing a valid argument.

Just  label anyone with a different viewpoint, who posts valid arguments that you are unable to refute, as some sort of monster.

When you resort to that, you've lost the argument but hey, you've convinced yourself that you are morally right so stuff like that doesn't matter.  This is why I view this modern mob of holier-than-thou  virtue signallers with the same kind of wariness that I accord to fanatically religious people who love to profess their piety.