Capital Gains Tax on residential property including main home?

[zugzwang]

11 minutes ago, Simhadri said:

Making money in stock market is not generated income if you know that. Its unearned income from other people's hard work.

No-one is priced out of the stock market. You always have the choice to play or not.

OTH, a roof over one's head is a functional necessity.

[Wayward]

4 hours ago, Freki said:

You are going with your house on your back 

Just ignore him/her,this website appears to have been targeted by a lot of obnoxious trolls in recent weeks.

[blackhole]

37 minutes ago, Simhadri said:

Applies to stock market investments. You buy and sit with your fat @ss and then say its your wealth although you didn't work to make that money. Whereas in BTL, people invest and have to put up with rogue tenants sometimes. Stock market investments can also be said mainly benefitted with timing and luck but not hard work.

One is a capital market which helps power growth and sometimes innovation - this is optional.  And CGT does apply to share sales, so "unearned" income is being treated fairly.

The other (housing) is a basic human requirement that financialisation has seized its grubby little hands on.   CGT here to date for "unearned" income?  ZILCH.  No wonder the average person piles in. 

Hence the review Sunak ordered, as the gov's spending is finally catching up with them and they're forced into a corner (need the extra revenue). 

If anything it shows that Sunak understands where the country's wealth lies - mainly in property.... easy target in that case....

Looks like that £300bn+ cannot be wished away by inflation after all?

Edited July 15, 2020 by blackhole

[nothernsoul]

The argument is nothing to do with luck or hard work. If I randomly bought shares in company x and there is a takeover out of the blue, then it is nobodies business if my gains were lucky. Same with property investments. Complaining would be jealousy. 

However house price gains, particularly BTL are not just due to luck. We have had two massive crisis in the past decade, the first largely caused by a debt fueled property bubble, which under free market conditions would have crushed those with over leveraged property investments. By definition/risk reward suggests accepting the losses if your investment goes wrong. However, the political consequences of this are unpalatable for politicians, and the population doesnt like losing on their property investments, so we have ultra low rates, money printing, htb, even giving money away to keep prices up. Now we have tax cuts in stamp duty, instead of directing that money into areas of the economy that need it. 

Complaining about a rigged game I am forced to be part of isnt jealousy, because it materially effects me. Whether through rising inflation, currency depreciation, my taxes being spent on inflated housing benefit or paying back private debt taken on by the state. Or when the next debt induced crisis hits. 

[Simhadri]

8 minutes ago, nothernsoul said:

However house price gains, particularly BTL are not just due to luck.

There are many BTL who lost on property in North. What about them ?

They took risk and nobody knew in 20 years ago where interest rates will be.

BTL was paying at 6% rates until 2009.

Only since then rates were reduced not for BTL but for wider economy to enable businesses borrow cheap and invest.

BTL rates are still well above 3.5% in limited company structure.

There are many who are renting have benefitted from furlough while other still working. Why should they pay taxes to fund somebody's rent on furlough ? Why should they fund bounce back loans ? Why should they fund self employed benefits ?

BTL are already paying lots of taxes including CGT, IHT. But how many types of taxes are stock market investors paying ? when they make gains only ? BTL has to pay multiple taxes. They're taking multiple risks.

Technically why should landlords taxes fund furlough rent boys who are having it easy ?

[Simhadri]

15 minutes ago, blackhole said:

One is a capital market which helps power growth and sometimes innovation - this is optional.  And CGT does apply to share sales, so "unearned" income is being treated fairly.

IHT ? Additional stamp duty ? Income tax on rent ? Dividend tax ? Penalties ? Death tax ? 

[Simhadri]

35 minutes ago, winkie said:

Nobody forces people to put up with rouge tenants....the risk they take when they have surplus property they choose to rent to others, also the risk of no price increase growth, high insurance and maintenance fees, interest rates... and more potential added taxes to pay for mega debt and deficit...

Then you accept BTL has so many risks for landlords yet you are jealous about their UNEARNED wealth .lol

[Wayward]

3 minutes ago, nothernsoul said:

The argument is nothing to do with luck or hard work. If I randomly bought shares in company x and there is a takeover out of the blue, then it is nobodies business if my gains were lucky. Same with property investments. Complaining would be jealousy. 

However house price gains, particularly BTL are not just due to luck. We have had two massive crisis in the past decade, the first largely caused by a debt fueled property bubble, which under free market conditions would have crushed those with over leveraged property investments. By definition/risk reward suggests accepting the losses if your investment goes wrong. However, the political consequences of this are unpalatable for politicians, and the population doesnt like losing on their property investments, so we have ultra low rates, money printing, htb, even giving money away to keep prices up. Now we have tax cuts in stamp duty, instead of directing that money into areas of the economy that need it. 

Complaining about a rigged game I am forced to be part of isnt jealousy, because it materially effects me. Whether through rising inflation, currency depreciation, my taxes being spent on inflated housing benefit or paying back private debt taken on by the state. Or when the next debt induced crisis hits. 

I expect you are wasting your time arguing with the trolls roaming these forums at the moment.  They take their privileges for granted and really believe their good fortune in owning a house worth 20 times average salary (that they bought for 3 times average salary) is down to their hard work and prudence.

They also no doubt believe...

-They have worked hard all their lives when in fact British productivity lags far behind our competitors and through the 1970s British productivity was terrible

-They had it tough because interest rates were 15% etc and fail to mention inflation went to 24% eroding their debts away

-Paid tax all their lives but are ignorant of the fact that on average they will take out around double what they paid in leaving the debts to the future generations...and that was before covid19

 

They roam these forums promoting inequality, injustice, privilege, feudalism, crony capitalism and worse...quite frankly they are selfish and vile.

 

[Simhadri]

31 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

Most of their wealth comes from unearned capital appreciation on the property value  - the tenant just pays the mortgage so the rent is just a bonus!

LOL most of stock market investors don't move their @$$. They make money on appreciation of their share values and dividends - somebody else working in the company is really contributing to the value of share price, not a lazy investor with a computer. Leeching off hard work of somebody else and getting benefitted and then bragging MY MONEY. 

[Simhadri]

30 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

No-one is priced out of the stock market. You always have the choice to play or not.

You bought a share for £10  20 years ago and now its value is £500. You've priced out new investors automatically.

While you enjoy your UNEARNED gains by leeching off employees of a company in which you bought shares while lecturing new investors to buy shares at higher prices.

Hypocrites.

In BTL also, you always have choice to play or not. Nobody is forcing you to buy. Keep renting just like you expect others to buy shares at higher value today than they were 20 years ago.

[Simhadri]

6 minutes ago, Wayward said:

I expect you are wasting your time arguing with the trolls roaming these forums at the moment.  They take their privileges for granted and really believe their good fortune in owning a house worth 20 times average salary (that they bought for 3 times average salary) is down to their hard work and prudence.

The trolls owning shares they bought for cheap many years ago now worth a lot. They brag they've INVESTED without moving their lazy @$$ while enjoying their UNEARNED gains in stock market by leeching off the employees off companies who are the ones putting real hard work. These cretins complain about BTL.

[Former postman]

House ownership has become to be seen as a speculative investment with no downside. But like holding shares, your investment can go up as well as down. 

[Locke]

13 minutes ago, Wayward said:

-Paid tax all their lives but are ignorant of the fact that on average they will take out around double what they paid in leaving the debts to the future generations...and that was before covid19

 

2 minutes ago, Postman said:

House ownership has become to be seen as a speculative investment with no downside. But like holding shares, your investment can go up as well as down. 

Exactly. Property and financial instruments suffer the same malaise.

[Simhadri]

1 minute ago, Postman said:

House ownership has become to be seen as a speculative investment with no downside. But like holding shares, your investment can go up as well as down. 

Wrong. There are many mortgage prisoners who lost their money.

It's about planning, strategy, timing, identifying right property in good location, able to secure such property in reasonable price.

These things are not easy. Once you start trying to do, you'll realise the risks one by one.

Shares involves not much work once you buy. You sit on your lazy @$$ and collect dividend and unearned capital gains by leeching off employees of the company you invested in.

House still involves lot of work dealing with rogue tenants, EA charges, insurances, compliance with govt rules and repairs, energy efficiency upgrades and so on.

[Simhadri]

4 minutes ago, Postman said:

House ownership has become to be seen as a speculative investment with no downside. But like holding shares, your investment can go up as well as down. 

Sorry yes agreed.

[Bluestone59]

13 minutes ago, Simhadri said:

Then you accept BTL has so many risks for landlords yet you are jealous about their UNEARNED wealth .lol

Take it from me, I'm not in the least envious of BTL's "unearned" wealth. I've worked for a landlord, not my money then, and dealing with maintenance and tenants' queries is just about the least attractive job I ever (briefly) did.

So I know what their job is like, wouldn't do it for 3.5% yield.

 

[nothernsoul]

Of course their is a risk when a landlord takes on a bad tenant, or finding a tenant. But that isnt the issue. The issue, and the problem, is buying the property with excess debt, as is the case with most residential property. That is what has poisoned the economy. 

[MARTINX9]

19 minutes ago, Simhadri said:

LOL most of stock market investors don't move their @$$. They make money on appreciation of their share values and dividends - somebody else working in the company is really contributing to the value of share price, not a lazy investor with a computer. Leeching off hard work of somebody else and getting benefitted and then bragging MY MONEY. 

Share prices for major firms were divorced from economic reality and profits years ago thanks to QE.

GDP may have collapsed and millions will soon be unemployed but share prices are almost back to where they were in February!

No doubt any wealth tax if introduced would focus on savings first then property!

[Simhadri]

Just now, nothernsoul said:

Of course their is a risk when a landlord takes on a bad tenant, or finding a tenant. But that isnt the issue. The issue, and the problem, is buying the property with excess debt, as is the case with most residential property. That is what has poisoned the economy. 

Landlord goes bankrupt if he is over-leveraged like in shares you put your money into shitty companies, you lose money. BTL has its own risks. Nothing has poisoned economy as landlords are taking risks and paying taxes and if numbers don't add they're selling off.

So it's not UNEARNED wealth because so many have lost money by over leveraging.

Whereas in shares you don't have banks knocking your doors for money, you won't have to deal with rogue tenants, anti social behaviour, messy tax changes from govt, no inheritance tax. Less maintenance in shares yet jealous about BTL as if BTL are having free lunch. LOL.

Real leeches are those having their share prices going up massively plus dividends while the real employees slogging off to make these leeches rich only to complain about a landlord who is putting up with shitload of risks.

[Warwick-Watcher]

7 minutes ago, Simhadri said:

Wrong. There are many mortgage prisoners who lost their money.

It's about planning, strategy, timing, identifying right property in good location, able to secure such property in reasonable price.

These things are not easy. Once you start trying to do, you'll realise the risks one by one.

Shares involves not much work once you buy. You sit on your lazy @$$ and collect dividend and unearned capital gains by leeching off employees of the company you invested in.

House still involves lot of work dealing with rogue tenants, EA charges, insurances, compliance with govt rules and repairs, energy efficiency upgrades and so on.

Key difference is that most people buy shares without borrowing huge sums from a bank to do it. Houses are different.

[Simhadri]

2 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

Share prices for major firms were divorced from economic reality and profits years ago thanks to QE.

GDP may have collapsed and millions will soon be unemployed but share prices are almost back to where they were in February!

No doubt any wealth tax if introduced would focus on savings first then property!

Yes please, if taxation to be increased, target ALL avenues, then these latte sipping communists from islington will cry out of roof tops seeing their shares taxed heavily on their UNEARNED gains and dividends. lol

[Simhadri]

1 minute ago, Warwick-Watcher said:

Key difference is that most people buy shares without borrowing huge sums from a bank to do it. Houses are different.

hahaha banks are not giving for free. They knock the doors if payments from landlord stop. They auction for much lesser prices and landlord yet to pyay remaining money. All this happens if he can't keep numbers adding while putting up with rogue tenants.

In shares, no such risk. you tesla share price gone up in years, what did you actually do ? Did you invent anything ? except leeching off the real staff at tesla who are sweating to make that company successful. So you are having UNEARNED wealth in shares plus dividends which MUST be taxed heavily for better distribution of wealth among those who don't have the luxury to buy those shares at such a low price now.

[Bluestone59]

19 minutes ago, Simhadri said:

 

While you enjoy your UNEARNED gains by leeching off employees of a company in which you bought shares....

Have to say there is something in this.

I worked in the City a long time ago and after I left I always refused to buy shares although I did have a company pension scheme at one time which I never took seriously.

Please excuse my being holier than thou but this stance probably cost me a six or even seven figure sum down the years. My view was that workers are exploited enough already without also carrying shareholders on their backs.

More recently I've started putting a modest sum in an investment trust monthly, only because HMG has got it in for cash and I have to defend myself or I'll be even worse off.

[Bluestone59]

8 minutes ago, Warwick-Watcher said:

Key difference is that most people buy shares without borrowing huge sums from a bank to do it. Houses are different.

 Not least because you need one to live in.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

One of the many reasons I decided to put my money in shares was because it was much less work than property.

Compared to the capital cost, renting is quite cheap. I'm quite happy to arbitrage accordingly. These are just market decisions, like any other.