Corona Virus Business Wage Relief

[AAA]

I think this is most unfair and insane policy even surpassing HTB by its stupidity.  Now any useless worker can be "furloughed" and relax at home enjoying £2500 salary and job security. At the same time NHS nurses will work day and night to save lives and receive even less money.

[scottbeard]

51 minutes ago, longgone said:

These kunts should just bring in a universal income

They should, in the long run.

Probably a bit too difficult to do as an emergency measure though - easy enough to pay the benefit, but the quid pro quo of abolishing all the other benefits and totally restructuring the tax system overnight would cause chaos if it were possible, and in practice just isn't possible: too many computer systems to change, and everyone will be off sick or WFH and wouldn't be able to do it.

[regprentice]

5 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

They should, in the long run.

Probably a bit too difficult to do as an emergency measure though - easy enough to pay the benefit, but the quid pro quo of abolishing all the other benefits and totally restructuring the tax system overnight would cause chaos if it were possible, and in practice just isn't possible: too many computer systems to change, and everyone will be off sick or WFH and wouldn't be able to do it.

No govt is ever going to legislate to remove disability benefits, or pay a UBI to anyone earning over 30/40k. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by regprentice

[longgone]

7 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

They should, in the long run.

Probably a bit too difficult to do as an emergency measure though - easy enough to pay the benefit, but the quid pro quo of abolishing all the other benefits and totally restructuring the tax system overnight would cause chaos if it were possible, and in practice just isn't possible: too many computer systems to change, and everyone will be off sick or WFH and wouldn't be able to do it.

in the long term i agree too it would simplify things, but to pay up to 2.5k per person is a joke to just one sector of the country and feck all or nothing to the other is taking the mick. i have to live with someone over 70 so i have to avoid pretty much everyone outside the front door i don`t expect the same as earning 40k a year sat at home but nothing at all ? 

Those who get this benefit are not means tested for savings or anything else. 

This ties in nicely though when i said minimum wage needed to be around 40k  proves the average wage of 25k is pathetic. 

[Jimmyjammy001]

When will Furloughed employees be taken back on, is there a set date? Some industry's /companys may start taking employees back on straight away whilst others take years to get back to where they were, the government going to pay out for years? 

Also I can see cash in hand jobs becoming quite popular, being paid to do nothing, may as well go out and earn something with all your spare time off the books. 

[scottbeard]

1 hour ago, regprentice said:

No govt is ever going to legislate to remove disability benefits, or pay a UBI to anyone earning over 30/40k. 

Disability benefits would always be in addition to UBI, of course.  I assumed it went without saying but happy to say it.

If it's not payable to people earning over 30-40k then it isn't UBI, because it isn't universal.  We pay the State Pension to everyone, even billionaires.  Why not UBI?

We take more from the rich, but give back the same to everyone.  Governments legislated to give the Basic State Pension and the NHS to everyone, so I don't see why they can't with UBI either.

[Si1]

Just a thought. Like QE etc. What if this can never be reversed?

[regprentice]

48 minutes ago, scottbeard said:

Disability benefits would always be in addition to UBI, of course.  I assumed it went without saying but happy to say it.

If it's not payable to people earning over 30-40k then it isn't UBI, because it isn't universal.  We pay the State Pension to everyone, even billionaires.  Why not UBI?

We take more from the rich, but give back the same to everyone.  Governments legislated to give the Basic State Pension and the NHS to everyone, so I don't see why they can't with UBI either.

There are two realistic propositions for ubi. The greens proposed a UBI at the state pension rate (circa 6k a year). There is a trial In Scotland at a similar rate, the proposal there is to do away with the tax free allowance and for tax to taper up so that, by the time you get a to a salary of circa 40k you get given 6k, but pay an Extra 6k in tax compared to today so are not really any better off. 

Most conversations I've had on here have stated that a UBI is incompatible with disability benefits or other benefits like housing benefit. Im not sure the benefits system will see many savings if the disability benefits continue to function as is. They've also generally targeted ubi at around £20k a year. 

[50sQuiff]

1 hour ago, Si1 said:

Just a thought. Like QE etc. What if this can never be reversed?

Right question and right comparison I think. It's like a ratchet. There is no going back from here.

There is already a clamour to support the 5m self-employed. There's the perception that this is a short-term measure for 3-4 months. Unlikely. The virus has merely accelerated a rolling economic crisis that may last 5 years.

People advocating being in cash (except, perhaps, the USD for the very short term) are fighting the last war.

Edited March 21, 2020 by 50sQuiff

[Si1]

1 hour ago, 50sQuiff said:

Right question and right comparison I think. It's like a ratchet. There is no going back from here.

There is already a clamour to support the 5m self-employed. There's the perception that this is a short-term measure for 3-4 months. Unlikely. The virus has merely accelerated a rolling economic crisis that may last 5 years.

People advocating being in cash (except, perhaps, the USD for the very short term) are fighting the last war.

In an era of zero interest rates and low capital returns that implies, then there is little leverage for govt to persuade employers etc to invest in assets to produce employment. Paying employers to employ people could be a way. It hurts my head.

[torquay lookout]

leading peers are calling for the government to give cash grants to self employed ,to class them the

same as small business's.

       personally i believe people who work should get cash grants to compensate them for not

 being able to not work and getting a free holiday albeit forced,

 

[regprentice]

6 hours ago, mattyboy1973 said:

I think companies are expected to pay 100% of the salary and claim back 80% - i.e. they need to cough up 20%, so there may still be some companies that decide to let staff go. 

I'm surprised but apparently employers won't have to pay the 20%....this scheme is making less sense the more I find out about it. 

COVID-19: guidance for employees - GOV.UK

Furloughed workers
If your employer cannot cover staff costs due to COVID-19, they may be able to access support to continue paying part of your wage, to avoid redundancies.

If your employer intends to access the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, they will discuss with you becoming classified as a furloughed worker. This would mean that you are kept on your employer’s payroll, rather than being laid off.

To qualify for this scheme, you should not undertake work for them while you are furloughed. This will allow your employer to claim a grant of up to 80% of your wage for all employment costs, up to a cap of £2,500 per month.

You will remain employed while furloughed. Your employer could choose to fund the differences between this payment and your salary, but does not have to.

[Si1]

2 minutes ago, regprentice said:

I'm surprised but apparently employers won't have to pay the 20%....this scheme is making less sense the more I find out about it. 

COVID-19: guidance for employees - GOV.UK

Furloughed workers
If your employer cannot cover staff costs due to COVID-19, they may be able to access support to continue paying part of your wage, to avoid redundancies.

If your employer intends to access the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, they will discuss with you becoming classified as a furloughed worker. This would mean that you are kept on your employer’s payroll, rather than being laid off.

To qualify for this scheme, you should not undertake work for them while you are furloughed. This will allow your employer to claim a grant of up to 80% of your wage for all employment costs, up to a cap of £2,500 per month.

You will remain employed while furloughed. Your employer could choose to fund the differences between this payment and your salary, but does not have to.

Most people wouldn't be worse off because they wouldn't have the day to day costs of having to get to and sustain themselves at work.

[markyh]

20 hours ago, Patfig said:

well next week I am furloughing myself 

Hmmmm. Do companies have to pay this back? I could go from Self Employeed to ltd in about 2 weeks, bung in a directors loan for £5k, pay myself £3125 net in April, then claim £2500 max for myself as an employee under this scheme for as long as they are giving it away.

But, if I have to pay it back , maybe not. 

[regprentice]

10 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Most people wouldn't be worse off because they wouldn't have the day to day costs of having to get to and sustain themselves at work.

No, but ive been an accountant running a payroll (though not for 15 years) and if I had to report to an MD on Monday morning to explain how the scheme works I wouldn't have a clue.

Ive seen one thread on another forum today where someone reckons they are averaging the wages for a business based on its February payroll and making a grant payment of 80% of the figure reported on the paye forms that month. 

[regprentice]

2 minutes ago, markyh said:

Hmmmm. Do companies have to pay this back? I could go from Self Employeed to ltd in about 2 weeks, bung in a directors loan for £5k, pay myself £3125 net in April, then claim £2500 max for myself as an employee under this scheme for as long as they are giving it away.

But, if I have to pay it back , maybe not. 

No requirement to repay it. 

There's a more in depth thread on contractor.co.uk but it looks like

- A director isn't an 'employee' 

- You'd only reclaim the PAYE element which for most directors would usually be £600 a month. 

[longgone]

What a plum I am just found out Jsa has a new style Jsa which is not dependent on savings being under 16k brought in 2016. However you need Ni contributions in the last 3 years.

I could of been claiming this krap last 4 years.

Don't the JC add Ni to your file if tell them too ?

 

 

[2buyornot2buy]

14 minutes ago, regprentice said:

No requirement to repay it. 

There's a more in depth thread on contractor.co.uk but it looks like

- A director isn't an 'employee' 

- You'd only reclaim the PAYE element which for most directors would usually be £600 a month. 

Lots of directors are employees paying salary at the annual allowance rate. 80% of 12500.

[Si1]

34 minutes ago, regprentice said:

No, but ive been an accountant running a payroll (though not for 15 years) and if I had to report to an MD on Monday morning to explain how the scheme works I wouldn't have a clue.

 

Very last minute policy. The smell of fear of a deflationary meltdown.

[Fromage Frais]

sounds too complicated.

I have decided to close my business now for the next week months until June (3-6 months methinks) 30 staff 1-1,5 million turnover 

before this I lost about 20,000 paying people to do nothing to keep them employed over the last few weeks.

funny as when this came out they all now do not want to work and i dont have enough staff to close up quickly and will do it myself.

My best one though is my live onsite staff total change from being really grateful when I was going to give them free accommodation food and sick-pay for the duration of the lockdown  to ....... now not wanting to do anything and still wanting it all for free and some have now mystically found the desire to return home or go live with friends in London.

Got to love moral hazard.

Cannot furlough everyone as looks like a few weeks of paperwork for all this stuff 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Fromage Frais

[regprentice]

25 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

Lots of directors are employees paying salary at the annual allowance rate. 80% of 12500.

The govt has been clear this doesn't apply to the self employed.

I wouldn't be surprised if the actual rules forbid single employee psc's. 

That said 80% of £12.5k is still barely a tenth of what most contractors would actually be taking home. 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by regprentice

[workingatthepyramid]

16 minutes ago, Fromage Frais said:

Got to love moral hazard.

 

 

Yep. Perfect way to destroy the morale of the very people they expect to keep the country going. Well played you self-serving tory shitstains. 

[regprentice]

1 hour ago, regprentice said:

Ive seen one thread on another forum today where someone reckons they are averaging the wages for a business based on its February payroll and making a grant payment of 80% of the figure reported on the paye forms that month. 

This may be true. According to ICAEW this scheme only applies to people employed on the 28th of February. 

https://www.icaew.com/insights/coronavirus/uk-practical-business-advice-covid-19

[Dorkins]

Always entertaining to watch anti-basic income politicians put in place welfare systems that completely destroy the incentive to work, the exact charge they always level at basic income.

[Fromage Frais]

I am reading it but I do not understand it.

I told my staff not to get excited as the devil is in the detail.

I have a hospitality business so tis completely ******ed and has been since the first announcement.

I have no business at all and already had enough losses and wont be earning anything this year fair enough my risk.  Thank god for HPC as if not I would have bought a house and not had the money saved.

This scheme for example you work in a restaurant and had 2000 a month the restaurant is now closed.

1.  You stay away and your employer claims 1600£ and pays you this based on previous pay info

or

2.  Your employer pays 2000£ and then claims back 80% so in effect as a business with a 40,000 wage bill would be expected to pay £6000 each month for employees who most likely will not come back to work anyhow for a period starting at 3 months maybe much more.

Not being horrible but a lot of people will not be able to do that and if they have to pay and then claim back wont have the cash to do that either.

Not to mention if your admin personnel want to be furloughed they may not be there to do all this paperwork required.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Fromage Frais