Corona Virus Business Wage Relief

[Fromage Frais]

13 hours ago, prozac said:

I can tell your pissed.

You try to be nice and they take the mick

Yes quite a bit

Some businesses are like big rowing boats.

You cannot get them moving or stopped without effort.

You cannot just leave it 

A delivery man came.yesterday and he was so happy to keep working and hates being inside just delivers the stuff outside with gloves and does not go 2m near folk.  He considered the largest danger is a packed supermarket, if you go to work via you own car and don't need to go near anyone I think I would prefer that to rotting in a flat.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Fromage Frais

[mspL4]

40 minutes ago, Fromage Frais said:

if you go to work via you own car and don't need to go near anyone I think I would prefer that to rotting in a flat.

I'm really enjoying WFH full-time for the next few months, but that's because:

a.  I'm an introvert and find being in groups of 3 or more people for 8 hours a day draining, (whether there's commonality or not)

b. I work in a very unhealthy and toxic work environment, (cliques, exclusion, power-tripping middle management, incompetence etc) so it saves me from having to continue my selective mutism in the office.

My Missus on the other hand, (who is a "People Person") is going nuts WFH...

We've not come to blows yet, but it's early days.  I'm keeping 6ft away from her, just in case...

[Andy T]

20 hours ago, Fromage Frais said:

Had an lovely team member not turn up to work today after saying they would.

No contact just helping board up a commercial property last steps before total furlough

Hmm furlough or terminate......

Why not just declare covid and take 14 i just do not understand some folk.

Honestly really people expect you to pay out 3 months cash and admin the lot and they cannot even have the decency to either stick to their word or tell a white lie so you can make other arrangements.

No contact? benefit of the doubt, see if they ring in tomorrow? could be family issues?

[Fromage Frais]

7 hours ago, Andy T said:

No contact? benefit of the doubt, see if they ring in tomorrow? could be family issues?

Nope sadly

Anyhow the details are out looks like the poor lady who left a good job and relocated to join me first week of March is screwed.

Bizzare why end people's jobs on the 20th of March and then say people needed to be working for a theatre for example on the 28th Feb?

Why dont make it the day they closed their place of employment.

At least some details are out most folks fuloughed already.  This will be a good make work sheme for payroll and accountants by the looks of it 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Fromage Frais

[Patfig]

9 hours ago, Fromage Frais said:

Nope sadly

Anyhow the details are out looks like the poor lady who left a good job and relocated to join me first week of March is screwed.

Bizzare why end people's jobs on the 20th of March and then say people needed to be working for a theatre for example on the 28th Feb?

Why dont make it the day they closed their place of employment.

At least some details are out most folks fuloughed already.  This will be a good make work sheme for payroll and accountants by the looks of it 

We have an employee who has slipped through that crack too started with us March 2nd, very talented person, cant be furloughed under the Feb 28th rule............… crackers

[regprentice]

1 hour ago, Ghostly said:

Guidance here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-for-wage-costs-through-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme

Interesting stuff

You must be furloughed for at least 3 weeks. 

The cap is per employer, so employees of multiple companies can be paid 2 or more times the 2.5k legitimately 

You cant work while furloughed... But you employer can require you to undertake online training etc. 

If you need staff to be working less hours, say 50% of their usual, you can't furlough them. 

The scheme definately isn't open to new staff employed after 28/2 (because they want to use the Feb payroll as a control for fraud.)

I think the cap per employer is a big one. I know a few people employed on a decent wage by multiple companies who can claim 2, 3 or more time £2.5 under that. I know a banking analyst who is also employed as her dad's building companies bookkeeper, though that was largely so the company could lease her an MX5, and I know a 'top salesman' working on basic and commission across 4 Companies all owned by the one director. 

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by regprentice
Change incorrect statement about 3 week furlough

[Andy T]

13 minutes ago, regprentice said:

Interesting stuff

You can only be furloughed for 3 weeks at a time. 

The cap is per employer, so employees. Of multiple companies can be paid 2 or more times the 2.5k legitimately 

You cant work while furloughed... But you employer can require you to undertake online training etc. 

If you need staff to be working less hours, say 50% of their usual, you can't furlough them. 

The scheme definately isn't open to new staff employed after 28/ (because they want to use the Feb payroll as a control for fraud.)

I think the cap per employer is a big one. I know a few people employed on a decent wage by multiple companies who can claim 2, 3 or more time £2.5 under that. I know a banking analyst who is also employed as her dad's building companies bookkeeper, though that was largely so the company could lease her an MX5, and I know a 'top salesman' working on basic and commission across 4 Companies all owned by the one director. 

 

Realistically though, I don't think they will be many people working multiple jobs on good salaries, it's going to be tiny numbers.

Most of the workers with two jobs will be minimum wage, short hours.

[Andy T]

27 minutes ago, regprentice said:

Interesting stuff

You can only be furloughed for 3 weeks at a time. 

 

'the minimum length of furloughing of 3 weeks'

I don't understand this statement though - 

'You can only submit one claim at least every 3 weeks, which is the minimum length an employee can be furloughed for'.

Interestingly, employees on zero hour contracts can be furloughed, says nothing about how many hours they would be paid for, sounds like it's left up to the employer.

[regprentice]

37 minutes ago, Andy T said:

Interestingly, employees on zero hour contracts can be furloughed, says nothing about how many hours they would be paid for, sounds like it's left up to the employer.

I think these rules apply. Says 'pay the higher of' so I'd assume as long as they are consistent in the rules they apply. From the rules it seems pretty clear hmrc will expect the pay to be

- The average for the last year

- The same as February

- A prorate since the start of employment. 

- If the work is seasonal it looks like you can use last March, last april and last May. 

Looks like you can vary your approach by staff member as long as they are maximising what they are paid. In fact it looks like that's mandatory... That and the could be a fair admin overhead. Could also take your admin/payroll employee out of contention for furlough

----

Employees whose pay varies

If the employee has been employed (or engaged by an employment business) for a full twelve months prior to the claim, you can claim for the higher of either:

• the same month’s earning from the previous year
• average monthly earnings from the 2019-20 tax year

If the employee has been employed for less than a year, you can claim for an average of their monthly earnings since they started work.

If the employee only started in February 2020, use a pro-rata for their earnings so far to claim.

Edited March 27, 2020 by regprentice

[regprentice]

32 minutes ago, Andy T said:

'the minimum length of furloughing of 3 weeks'

I don't understand this statement though - 

'You can only submit one claim at least every 3 weeks, which is the minimum length an employee can be furloughed for'.

I think that's what I misunderstood. May be clearer when the portals open but it appears to be tied to the monthly payroll cycle so i suspect you put through your grant request in the same timeline as you submit your paye paperwork. 

Presumably that means it'll be structured so employers receive their grants on a monthly cycle irrespective of whether their payroll is weekly, fortnightly, 4 weeky or monthly. 

One way to avoid the inability to furlough staff you need on 50% time might be to ask everyone to come in one or two days a week and furlough them for the other three days. Presumably this is intended to prevent that. 

Interestingly a lot of people on oil rigs work on a 3 on 3 off cycle and this would allow them to be furloughed while onshore. (it's also common to be 2 on 2 off). 

Edited March 27, 2020 by regprentice

[GregBowman]

1 hour ago, regprentice said:

Interesting stuff

You must be furloughed for at least 3 weeks. 

The cap is per employer, so employees of multiple companies can be paid 2 or more times the 2.5k legitimately 

You cant work while furloughed... But you employer can require you to undertake online training etc. 

If you need staff to be working less hours, say 50% of their usual, you can't furlough them. 

The scheme definately isn't open to new staff employed after 28/2 (because they want to use the Feb payroll as a control for fraud.)

I think the cap per employer is a big one. I know a few people employed on a decent wage by multiple companies who can claim 2, 3 or more time £2.5 under that. I know a banking analyst who is also employed as her dad's building companies bookkeeper, though that was largely so the company could lease her an MX5, and I know a 'top salesman' working on basic and commission across 4 Companies all owned by the one director. 

 

Think thats a wrinkle that will be addressed anyway - they will have one UTR number not four  - The gap between the announcement and the first payments will give them a chance to look at that -  I suspect small number as Andy T says fall into that bracket 

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

does anyone think the government might try to claw all this back at some point in the future ?

[solentmuppet]

Certainly do. A lot of stuff including basics are going to get quite a bit more expensive.....

[Fromage Frais]

3 hours ago, Patfig said:

We have an employee who has slipped through that crack too started with us March 2nd, very talented person, cant be furloughed under the Feb 28th rule............… crackers

"Employees hired after 28 February 2020 cannot be furloughed or claimed for in accordance with this scheme."

Thats on the official site.

I have two potential issues

one person signed contract 21 feb - first shift 6 th march - first pay slip this month as we have a 7 days from end of month cut off for hours workers

Another person signed contract jan > first shift 20 feb > first payslip this month as started job at time of wage cut off.

Going by this they where "hired" as have contracts signed from before this date with a recruitment company third party (paid a fee).

or 

One if not eligible as they where not able to start any shifts before 28th feb

or 

both not eligible as even though a contract and started work before 28th Feb they did not get their first payslip until this month.

[Patfig]

24 minutes ago, Fromage Frais said:

"Employees hired after 28 February 2020 cannot be furloughed or claimed for in accordance with this scheme."

Thats on the official site.

I have two potential issues

one person signed contract 21 feb - first shift 6 th march - first pay slip this month as we have a 7 days from end of month cut off for hours workers

Another person signed contract jan > first shift 20 feb > first payslip this month as started job at time of wage cut off.

Going by this they where "hired" as have contracts signed from before this date with a recruitment company third party (paid a fee).

or 

One if not eligible as they where not able to start any shifts before 28th feb

or 

both not eligible as even though a contract and started work before 28th Feb they did not get their first payslip until this month.

Not sure but our employee signed his contract a few weeks previously...………….. 

[longgone]

So employed or self employed you can claim upto 2.5k with no savings restrictions bit in between jobs and over 16k nothing.

Why did they just not go down the ubi route far less admin and fairer

[Fromage Frais]

2 minutes ago, Patfig said:

Not sure but our employee signed his contract a few weeks previously...………….. 

Thats the thing if you have a signed job offer then if you retract the offer you are still liable to pay notice.  They are in effect hired?

So some small companies say cafes will if they have a new key employee hired will have to find the money to pay them out.

It cuts both ways. 

[Fromage Frais]

18 minutes ago, longgone said:

So employed or self employed you can claim upto 2.5k with no savings restrictions bit in between jobs and over 16k nothing.

Why did they just not go down the ubi route far less admin and fairer

Makes no sense to me.

Who wants to be the person who does not get furloughed.... and then has to admin this lot and run the pay roll.

The owner you say ok but technically i they want to be furloughed and paid they are not allowed to work.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Fromage Frais

[longgone]

5 hours ago, Fromage Frais said:

Makes no sense to me.

Who wants to be the person who does not get furloughed.... and then has to admin this lot and run the pay roll.

The owner you say ok but technically i they want to be furloughed and paid they are not allowed to work.

It's a long term plan no doubt so as to not upset the apple cart. The way they are doing it now they are just giving the same as they would have got working so no mental change to the Individual but with a citizens income the plebs may actually like it and demand to keep it.

We all know some employees stuck in useless non jobs just to give them a title and a purpose they get looked after yet the homeless guy gets nowt.

Disgrace.

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

6 hours ago, longgone said:

So employed or self employed you can claim upto 2.5k with no savings restrictions bit in between jobs and over 16k nothing.

Why did they just not go down the ubi route far less admin and fairer

The government is supporting the backbone of the country, it's workers who contibute their time and skills towards society.

[fleabag]

It confuses me as to why the government seem to want to treat people who pay themselves through a ltd company as some sort of tax dodgers. I pay myself through a ltd company and pay as much tax as I would do earning the same amount through PAYE the government have designed it like that and I'm happy to pay it. 

I'll admit it would have been a lot easier if we got the same grant as the self employed during this time but I feel for the other people who are worse off. 

[Tulip_mania]

11 hours ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

does anyone think the government might try to claw all this back at some point in the future ?

Presume it all counts as taxable income. Plus the self employed side might encourage slightly more accurate tax returns in future, and self employed NI to match employee rate. 

[Tulip_mania]

47 minutes ago, fleabag said:

It confuses me as to why the government seem to want to treat people who pay themselves through a ltd company as some sort of tax dodgers. I pay myself through a ltd company and pay as much tax as I would do earning the same amount through PAYE the government have designed it like that and I'm happy to pay it. 

I'll admit it would have been a lot easier if we got the same grant as the self employed during this time but I feel for the other people who are worse off. 

If people pay themselves a wage from a ltd company, and pay Tax+NI on that they should (in my opinion) be eligible for the furlough scheme on their salary if they are unable to trade. Income via dividends to avoid NI shouldn't count.

[simvastatin]

9 hours ago, Fromage Frais said:

Makes no sense to me.

Who wants to be the person who does not get furloughed.... and then has to admin this lot and run the pay roll.

The owner you say ok but technically i they want to be furloughed and paid they are not allowed to work.

I am so happy i got Furloughed, i have lots of food, lots of beer, lots of toilet paper, loads of books on my kindle, Netflix and amazon prime movies.

I feel so happy.

[Patfig]

11 hours ago, Tulip_mania said:

If people pay themselves a wage from a ltd company, and pay Tax+NI on that they should (in my opinion) be eligible for the furlough scheme on their salary if they are unable to trade. Income via dividends to avoid NI shouldn't count.

They are eligible